Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[Bletchleyite]

Interestingly, Shepperton to Fulwell appears to see changes in paper fare prices, consistent with the basis of single leg pricing for an enquiry (GWR booking engine) on 6 December, which would represent a fare hike for returns on Sundays and in the evening, although other times would see a reduction.

The current fares are
Evening / Sunday Single £4.00
Anytime Day Single £4.30

Evening Out / Sunday out £5.00
Off peak day return £7.00
Anytime day return £8.60

The new single fares are £3 off peak / £4.30 off peak.

Off-peak day return reduces to £6.00 but picks up the afternoon restriction.

Interesting to see a fare change implemented for the 'paper' structure, at the same time as the contactless extension happens, rather than both co-existing.

Appears that SWR abolish Sunday Out and Evening Out wholly within the CPAY area from 3 December, together with the introduction of afternoon restrictions on off-peak day returns with the peak flow.

Not sure about that, if the off-peak single with the flow picks up an evening restriction out of Euston.

Bletchley to Euston might be a good case study for analysing the apparent stealth fare increases happening from 3 December, although some passengers will pay less. Bletchley to Slough might be even more stark.

If they go back to a 2 step walk up pricing approach that's just putting it back the way it was. As with when they went to 3 step there'll be winners and losers.

 

[JonathanH]

If they go back to a 2 step walk up pricing approach that's just putting it back the way it was. As with when they went to 3 step there'll be winners and losers.

Yes, but if they impose an evening restriction that previously only applied on the third step, that is a stealth fare increase.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, but if they impose an evening restriction that previously only applied on the third step, that is a stealth fare increase.

When it was two step there was an evening restriction on the off peak, which was removed (and the fare increased) when it went 3 step, so as I said winners and losers.

 

[Kite159]

When it was two step there was an evening restriction on the off peak, which was removed (and the fare increased) when it went 3 step, so as I said winners and losers.

Was there an evening restriction on the old off-peak day return before SWR introduced those cheaper 'evening out' tickets?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Was there an evening restriction on the old off-peak day return before SWR introduced those cheaper 'evening out' tickets?

It varies by TOC. I know WMT did, I don't know about others.

 

[JonathanH]

This page on the SWR website sets out the changes to the fare structure at the 12 SWR stations in Project Oval Phase 1, as discussed above.

Although paper fares change from 3 December, it is non-committal about the date PAYG starts.

https://www.southwesternrailway.com...ontactless-extension-fare-restrictions-change

Changes to Peak & Off Peak Times and Fares

Contactless pay as you go is being extended to 53 National Rail stations across the South East including 12 South Western Railway stations.

In preparation for the launch of contactless pay as you go, from 3rd December the following changes will apply to journeys where contactless pay as you go will be available (from these stations and into and around London Zones 1-9).

Tickets purchased for travel from 3rd December are now priced and carry restrictions based on the new structure.

Changes to Peak and Off Peak times

For journeys where contactless is available, fares into and around London will be based on the following times and are determined by the departure time of your train(s), not by when you purchase your ticket.

* Morning peak fares are charged 04:30 to 09:30, Monday to Friday
* Evening peak fares are charged 16.00 to 19.00, Monday to Friday when travelling from or via any station within the London Zones 1-9.
* Off-peak fares are charged at all other times.

Tickets need to be valid for every train you’re travelling on. If you change trains during your journey and the departure time of any of your trains is in the peak period, you will need to buy an Anytime ticket.

Please note: when contactless pay as you go launches later this year, there will be slight variation in the morning peak times when using contactless – more information will be provided prior to the launch

Changes to Fares & Ticketing

For journeys where contactless will be available, there are some adjustments to fares and tickets:

* Fares will be calculated as single journeys, with the single fares costing half of a return ticket.

* Evening Out and Sunday Out tickets will no longer be available, however for most journeys the Off Peak ticket will be cheaper than the current Off Peak fare.

Why are these changes happening?

These changes are happening in preparation for the launch of contactless pay as you go by the end of the year. Contactless pay as you go payments will be processed by Transport for London (TfL) to enable connectivity across the London travel zones (1-9). Therefore in order to extend contactless pay as you go across the south east, there needs to be alignment with Transport for London’s (TfL) Peak and Off Peak times and pricing structure.

Why can't I buy a Evening Out/Sunday Out or Super Off-Peak ticket anymore?

We have simplified our fares so that now there is just one Peak and one Off Peak price for journeys where contactless will be available. Off Peak fares have reduced for most journeys in the new contactless area.

Can I still buy a return ticket?

Yes, you can still buy a return ticket. However, with the introduction of new morning and evening peak times on journeys where contactless will be available, it may be better value to buy two single tickets rather than a return ticket.

For example, if you travel during Peak time in one direction and an Off Peak time in the other, then an Anytime Single plus an Off Peak Single will be cheaper than an Anytime Day Return.

What if I am travelling from outside London into London Zones 1-9 during the evening peak?

If you are travelling towards a London station, the evening Peak times will not apply and you can travel with an Off Peak ticket. However, if you change trains within the London Zones 1-9, you will usually be subject to a Peak fare.

Please check our journey planner at https://www.southwesternrailway.com/ to confirm which ticket is required for your specific journey.

Which South Western Railway (SWR) stations are included?

There are 12 SWR stations that will be getting contactless pay as you go and therefore moving to the new fare structure and Peak time restrictions, these stations are:

Ashford (Surrey)
Datchet
Egham
Kempton Park
Shepperton
Staines
Sunbury
Sunnymeads
Upper Halliford
Virginia Water
Windsor & Eton Riverside
Wraysbury

When will passengers be able to use contactless pay as you go at these stations?

Passengers will be able to use contactless pay as you go at all 53 additional National Rail stations in the south east (including the 12 SWR stations) by the end of 2023.

Do you have any more information on the contactless extension?

We have a dedicated page explaining which stations are included in the contactless extension: www.southwesternrailway.com/contactless

More information will be available prior to the launch.

You can find out more about the expansion of contactless pay as you go across the South East on the Department for Transport's website.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can see a flaw in that - if when changing you don't pass a gateline, you may still be charged off peak.

 

[Starmill]

I can see a flaw in that - if when changing you don't pass a gateline, you may still be charged off peak.

Or does it mean to imply that contactless would just charge you the off peak fare anyway, but if you use paper you won't get that benefit? Otherwise, someone who touches out at the last station in zone 6 might end up being charged the off peak fare while someone who stays on the train one stop further away from London pays double the price?

 

[JonathanH]

When I looked at fares from Bletchley to Windsor, an anytime ticket was needed for any return departure from Windsor that required leaving from Euston between 1600 and 1900, and any departure that was from Windsor between 1600 and 1990, which made the afternoon peak window last from about 1430 to 1900.

It will be interesting to see if the Contactless PAYG implementation is done the same way, but at present the relevant information isn't available.

 

[Kite159]

A sign of things to come with Northern style afternoon peak restrictions spreading to routes which traditionally only had AM peak restrictions?
Just means the first train after 7pm will be extra busy.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

Will the evening peak apply to freedom passes?

 

[JonathanH]

Will the evening peak apply to freedom passes?

I'm not sure what the question is. Freedom passes don't apply in the extended Contactless area and the changes to paper tickets don't change what happens for journeys within the existing area.

The fares from Boundary Zone 6 are likely to have the same restrictions as being mentioned above, but the information to check isn't available yet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When I looked at fares from Bletchley to Windsor, an anytime ticket was needed for any return departure from Windsor that required leaving from Euston between 1600 and 1900, and any departure that was from Windsor between 1600 and 1990, which made the afternoon peak window last from about 1430 to 1900.

It will be interesting to see if the Contactless PAYG implementation is done the same way, but at present the relevant information isn't available.

If it doesn't work out where splits at touch points would be cheaper then it is a bit bad, but can be worked around by using two cards to kill the out of station interchanges. Or cross London by bus which breaks the OSI on the same card.

There could do with being logic to only apply an OSI where it costs less than two journeys.

As for paper/etickets, now Trainline has made splits mainstream people will end up splitting where cheaper.

 

[jon81uk]

A sign of things to come with Northern style afternoon peak restrictions spreading to routes which traditionally only had AM peak restrictions?
Just means the first train after 7pm will be extra busy.

Assuming those who are currently commuting into London are buying a standard anytime return to arrive into London before 0930 anyway the addition of an evening peak won't make any difference, they will still pay the same as the anytime return cost, just now as two singles.

The winners are people who arrive into the city before 0930 but leave after 7pm, previously they would buy an anytime return (as the single was only a few £ cheaper), now with singles being half the return price it would be peak single in and off-peak single out, saving money.

 

[JonathanH]

The winners are people who arrive into the city before 0930 but leave after 7pm, previously they would buy an anytime return (as the single was only a few £ cheaper), now with singles being half the return price it would be peak single in and off-peak single out, saving money.

Yes, that is accepted and has been a feature of Contactless implementation before.

What is different is the change to 'paper' tickets with this implementation, although the expectation may well be that users switch to Contactless as a step to many users doing so.

The losers, in a very big way given the difference between off-peak and anytime fares in the South East, are those making journeys after the end of the morning peak, and travelling back in the afternoon, particularly for cross London journeys, where it appears that there is a double afternoon restriction applied.

 

[jon81uk]

Yes, that is accepted and has been a feature of Contactless implementation before.

What is different is the change to 'paper' tickets with this implementation, although the expectation may well be that users switch to Contactless as a step to many users doing so.

The losers, in a very big way given the difference between off-peak and anytime fares in the South East, are those making journeys after the end of the morning peak, and travelling back in the afternoon, particularly for cross London journeys, where it appears that there is a double afternoon restriction applied.

Yes true, new evening peak will make it slightly more for those travelling after morning peak but back in the evening one.
Effectivly there will now be three fares for combination of peak/peak, off-peak/peak (or vice-versa) and off-peak/off-peak, whereas for the old returns tickets only the morning peak affected the price. So yes some will now pay a small amount more and some less.

 

[Watershed]

When I looked at fares from Bletchley to Windsor, an anytime ticket was needed for any return departure from Windsor that required leaving from Euston between 1600 and 1900, and any departure that was from Windsor between 1600 and 1990, which made the afternoon peak window last from about 1430 to 1900.

It will be interesting to see if the Contactless PAYG implementation is done the same way, but at present the relevant information isn't available.

I can't really see contactless going the same way - none of the other extensions have done, and in any event there will be plenty of journeys without an intermediate touch to tell the system about changes. Paper tickets have presumably just been implemented this way because it's simpler as it doesn't require separate restriction codes for each station pairing. Cynically one could also say it gives contactless PAYG a price advantage.

 

[davews]

I find this all confusing. It will be interesting what the options will be for those just outside the contactless area. Will it be cheaper to buy a return Virginia Water to Sunningdale and then a normal off peak return to Waterloo avoiding the evening peak. Or will the new peak times apply to all stations on that line meaning the present 'arriving Waterloo after 10am' becomes 'arriving Waterloo after 9.30am'. Or you can't leave Virginia Water off peak until 9.30 but I can still catch the 0903 from Martins Heron? Unless they adjust fares and times on the whole line it will be a pigs ear.

 

[JonathanH]

I find this all confusing.

Yes, that is the big concern.

It will be interesting what the options will be for those just outside the contactless area.

Not changing with effect from 3 December.

Or will the new peak times apply to all stations on that line meaning the present 'arriving Waterloo after 10am' becomes 'arriving Waterloo after 9.30am'. Or you can't leave Virginia Water off peak until 9.30 but I can still catch the 0903 from Martins Heron?

Yes, that is right. Blanket 0930 from Virginia Water and evening peak restrictions. No change for Sunningdale (and further west) at this point, so the Sunday Out / Evening Out / Off-peak day return structure remains in force, and you don't get single leg pricing.

Off-peak day return to London valid from Sunningdale on 0911, but not at Virginia Water at 0919, although there is a step down in price of the off-peak day return from Virginia Water.

Unless they adjust fares and times on the whole line it will be a pigs ear.

Yes

 

[Seehof]

How will this work for an elderly retired BR person with safeguarded privilege facilities? The person I am thinking of is a 84 year old lady living in Rayleigh who has no smart phone (nor will get one!) and insists on using cash still everywhere! She often travels to Southend or London and only uses her “boxes” for longer journeys. Thanks

 

[JonathanH]

How will this work for an elderly retired BR person with safeguarded privilege facilities? The person I am thinking of is a 84 year old lady living in Rayleigh who has no smart phone (nor will get one!) and insists on using cash still everywhere! She often travels to Southend or London and only uses her “boxes” for longer journeys. Thanks

It doesn't change from Rayleigh anytime soon as it isn't in Phase 1 of Project Oval.

The changes being discussed here affect the stations in Phase 1 for journeys to stations in Zone 1 to 6, and other stations in Phase 1.

I am not sure the impact is even consistent between fares priced by SWR, c2c, Chiltern, GTR and LNR in the Phase 1 extension.

 

[Verulamius]

This will make a commuting return journey from St Albans Abbey to Watford Junction and back cheaper.

Anytime return currently is 9.10 with a single 6.60 and an offpeak return 6.70

The new fares from 3 December are anytime return 9.00 with peak single 4.50, offpeak return 6.80 and offpeak single 3.40.

As Watford Junction is in zone 10 the evening peak from 16:00-19:00 does not apply.

Thus it will be cheaper to buy a peak single into work in the morning and an off peak single back home total 7.90 than an anytime return of 9.00.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Nov 2023 ==

There will also be complications around the boundary.

For example Bletchley has contactless fares but Milton Keynes Central does not. There will be cheap offpeak singles to Bletchley half the price of a offpeak return, but not at Milton Keynes Central. So spliting offpeak singles at Bletchley could well be cheaper.

 

[davews]

This page on the SWR website sets out the changes to the fare structure at the 12 SWR stations in Project Oval Phase 1, as discussed above.

Although paper fares change from 3 December, it is non-committal about the date PAYG starts.

https://www.southwesternrailway.com/train-tickets/smart-ticketing/contactless-payg-extension

I no longer see the quoted text on that linked page?

 

[JonathanH]

I no longer see the quoted text on that linked page?

Yes, sorry - wrong link - try https://www.southwesternrailway.com...ontactless-extension-fare-restrictions-change

I'll correct the original post.

 

[778]

Once project oval is completed and contacless has been expanded to all the stations, will it be cheaper to use contactless, or a paper ticket with a network railcard discount, if your journey is in the contacless area? Will paper tickets become more expensive to try and stop people using the network railcard?

 

[davews]

Tickets need to be valid for every train you’re travelling on. If you change trains during your journey and the departure time of any of your trains is in the peak period, you will need to buy an Anytime ticket.

I don't understand that statement. Peak times on TFL contactless are defined on the time you tap in at the start of your journey. The times of individual trains you use, including any you change to on your journey is irrelevant, if you tap in outside peak time it is off peak. Are they suggesting that, as I did yesterday, I catch the 0903 at Martins Heron (outside contactless area) then change onto the Weybridge Hounslow Loop train at Egham, within contactless, at 0927 I have to pay peak rate, but if I do so at Staines (0933) it is off peak?

(journey planner does correctly show that this doesn't apply from Martins Heron, peak fares from Virginia Water, off peak Staines.)

 

[MikeWh]

Tickets need to be valid for every train you’re travelling on. If you change trains during your journey and the departure time of any of your trains is in the peak period, you will need to buy an Anytime ticket.

I don't understand that statement. Peak times on TFL contactless are defined on the time you tap in at the start of your journey. The times of individual trains you use, including any you change to on your journey is irrelevant, if you tap in outside peak time it is off peak.

They're talking about using paper tickets.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Tickets need to be valid for every train you’re travelling on. If you change trains during your journey and the departure time of any of your trains is in the peak period, you will need to buy an Anytime ticket.

I don't understand that statement. Peak times on TFL contactless are defined on the time you tap in at the start of your journey. The times of individual trains you use, including any you change to on your journey is irrelevant, if you tap in outside peak time it is off peak. Are they suggesting that, as I did yesterday, I catch the 0903 at Martins Heron (outside contactless area) then change onto the Weybridge Hounslow Loop train at Egham, within contactless, at 0927 I have to pay peak rate, but if I do so at Staines (0933) it is off peak?

(journey planner does correctly show that this doesn't apply from Martins Heron, peak fares from Virginia Water, off peak Staines.)

Restrictions for paper tickets can't exactly mirror those for contactless for technical reasons.

So for a journey wholly within the Oval area, a train scheduled to depart between 0430 and 0929 will usually require an Anytime ticket, and this will be reflected in journey planners.

This does, however, mean there will be journeys shown as requiring an Anytime ticket where CPAY would charge the Off-Peak rate and vice versa.

Journeys to/from stations outside the Oval area won't be affected by the change to restrictions...but equally won't have Single tickets reduced to half the price of the Return.

 

[winks]

Once project oval is completed and contacless has been expanded to all the stations, will it be cheaper to use contactless, or a paper ticket with a network railcard discount, if your journey is in the contacless area? Will paper tickets become more expensive to try and stop people using the network railcard?

You would think it would be cheaper with a Network Railcard. As a cardholder myself I’d be interested to know too.

 

[davews]

Senior railcard is not valid for journeys during the MORNING peak period (Network SE area) which implies it can be used during the evening peak period. Journey planner though seems not to offer them for those times.