Future of Class 379

[RobShipway]

I am sure Scotrail indicated they wanted a standard single design to replace all the older EMUs, and the diesel units of lines being upgraded.

The DfT Business commitments of 21-30 4 car units, suggests 21 units are required, but taking them all might be better bet, assuming lease co doesn't want to be stuck with token number, especially if some 387s can move back to GWR. Almost feels as if Oxford electrification is dead cert (even if not announced).

I personally think that Scotrail are more likely to be ordering more Class 385 units and that these will replace the older EMU's.

GWR do not require the class 387's back as far as I am aware, even if electrification is done to oxford, as they would just simply extend the services to Didcot Parkway. Failing that, the other answer is to extend the Elizabeth line services to Didcot Parkway. If however the suburban services in Bristol and west towards Cornwall get electrified, then they will need a new fleet of electric trains to do local services. These could be used to be replacing the class 150 - 166 units, but also if enough are ordered be added to services to Oxford, plus local services in Bucks and Berkshire (I.e. Henley-On-Thames, Marlow, Windsor etc...).

 

[anthony263]

If they wired to Bristol.Tm etc then maybe fit batteries to some units if there's enough range with a facility to recharge the batteries

 

[dk1]

If they wired to Bristol.Tm etc then maybe fit batteries to some units if there's enough range with a facility to recharge the batteries

Seemed to work reasonably well when batteries were fitted last time to a 379 but not taken forward with this class afterwards.

 

[43102EMR]

Seemed to work reasonably well when batteries were fitted last time to a 379 but not taken forward with this class afterwards.

Bare in mind that was over 10 years ago now - the technology has come a long way since then.

 

[dk1]

Bare in mind that was over 10 years ago now - the technology has come a long way since then.

It was eight years ago last January/February.

 

[43102EMR]

It was eight years ago last January/February.

8 years when it entered service - the concept was devised in 2013

 

[dk1]

8 years when it entered service - the concept was devised in 2013

Fair enough. Used it several times whilst restricted. Liverpool Street drivers loved it as they didn’t sign them so chipped off early.

 

[RobShipway]

As posted in the thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/great-northern-fleet-tender.247756/page-7

As has been stated a few times in this thread, if GN procured the class 379 units, it could mean that the class 387 units could either move down to Southern or possibly move to Southern with some going back to GWR.

The details of the procurement are as follows:

"Fleet Procurement 25.1 The Operator shall conduct a competitive process for the procurement of no fewer than 21 units (84 vehicles), up to a maximum of 30 units (120 vehicles), by commencing with the issue of a prior information notice (PIN) by no later than [REDACTED8] that would enable the units to become part of the Operator’s train fleet by no later than [REDACTED9]
25.2 By no later than [REDACTED10] the Operator shall submit a report to the Secretary of State detailing the outcomes of the procurement activity detailed in paragraph 25.1, and including the Operator’s recommended option; and
25.3 GTR will provide progress updates against this paragraph 25.1, at the periodic train service development meeting attended by representatives of the Secretary of State and the Operator."

Including the Gatwick Express that Great Northern are currently using, they have access to 39 class 387 units. Now, this could just be my opinion but I think only 28 of those units are possibly used. So you could have the 30 class 379 units replace the bulk of the class 387 units. Then I see 30 units moving to GWR with the remaining 9 units moving south to Southern.

This will fill the requirement for the 30 100mph capable trains for Great Northern and 30 110mph trains for GWR.

 

[JonathanH]

Then I see 30 units moving to GWR with the remaining 9 units moving south to Southern.

This will fill the requirement for the 30 100mph capable trains for Great Northern and 30 110mph trains for GWR.

I think you are conflating a few things here.

GWR's exercise a few years ago was to consider whether 30 379s were cheaper to lease than 30 387s, not to increase its EMU fleet. As we saw, the speeding up of Didcot stoppers and removal of some peak services reduced the fleet size at GWR by 3 units. That is all GWR need at this time.

It was speculated that if GWR had taken on the 30 379s, the 33 387s would have gone to GTR to be used predominantly by Southern.

GTR appear to be presenting options to the DfT to increase their fleet. The increase in services doesn't need to be on GN at all. It seems wrong to say that services are 'missing'. The 2019 timetable is not necessarily a measure of what should run now. Lengthening formations on the GN or Southern network and keeping the existing timetable could equally be the outcome, notably on the services via Tulse Hill releasing 3-car units to form 10-car units on other Metro services and sending 4-car units to the longer distance routes.

 

[RobShipway]

I think you are conflating a few things here.

GWR's exercise a few years ago was to consider whether 30 379s were cheaper to lease than 30 387s, not to increase its EMU fleet. As we saw, the speeding up of Didcot stoppers and removal of some peak services reduced the fleet size at GWR by 3 units. That is all GWR need at this time.

It was speculated that if GWR had taken on the 30 379s, the 33 387s would have gone to GTR to be used predominantly by Southern.

GTR appear to be presenting options to the DfT to increase their fleet. The increase in services doesn't need to be on GN at all. It seems wrong to say that services are 'missing'. The 2019 timetable is not necessarily a measure of what should run now. Lengthening formations on the GN or Southern network and keeping the existing timetable could equally be the outcome, notably on the services via Tulse Hill releasing 3-car units to form 10-car units on other Metro services and sending 4-car units to the longer distance routes.

I was just going by what has been said in this thread and the thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/great-northern-fleet-tender.247756/page-7.

 

[Poyntz]

Are any GTR units coming to the end of their lease in the near future please?

 

[JonathanH]

Are any GTR units coming to the end of their lease in the near future please?

All remaining leases set to end on 31 March 2028 in the 24 March 2022 National Rail Contract (except units which have already gone, other than 171201, and the 717s which were originally 30 September 2023 but I think got renewed).
See https://assets.publishing.service.g...ilway-limited-2022-national-rail-contract.pdf (can't easily copy a quote but it is page 73-76).

 

[Poyntz]

All remaining leases set to end on 31 March 2028 in the 24 March 2022 National Rail Contract (except units which have already gone, other than 171201, and the 717s which were originally 30 September 2023 but I think got renewed).
See https://assets.publishing.service.g...ilway-limited-2022-national-rail-contract.pdf (can't easily copy a quote but it is page 73-76).

Very many thanks!

 

[bramling]

I think you are conflating a few things here.

GWR's exercise a few years ago was to consider whether 30 379s were cheaper to lease than 30 387s, not to increase its EMU fleet. As we saw, the speeding up of Didcot stoppers and removal of some peak services reduced the fleet size at GWR by 3 units. That is all GWR need at this time.

It was speculated that if GWR had taken on the 30 379s, the 33 387s would have gone to GTR to be used predominantly by Southern.

GTR appear to be presenting options to the DfT to increase their fleet. The increase in services doesn't need to be on GN at all. It seems wrong to say that services are 'missing'. The 2019 timetable is not necessarily a measure of what should run now. Lengthening formations on the GN or Southern network and keeping the existing timetable could equally be the outcome, notably on the services via Tulse Hill releasing 3-car units to form 10-car units on other Metro services and sending 4-car units to the longer distance routes.

Whilst I don’t disagree with the above (even though I don’t like it!), there isn’t that much scope for lengthening on the GN. Most of the key Fen Line services to King’s Cross are now back to 12-car, Tuesday to Thursday at least, and one of the three peak Peterborough services is - even in the May 18 timetable not all the Peterborough extras were 12.

So barring lengthening the two Peterborough services, there isn’t much left to lengthen. The Cambridge stopping services are essentially limited to 8 because of the number of short platforms (though 12/700s have covered on a very limited number of occasions). Beyond that, any uplift in capacity will have to come from additional services.

 

[43102EMR]

379028 appears to have moved near Belmont sidings at Doncaster - any idea why?

 

[JonathanH]

379028 appears to have moved near Belmont sidings at Doncaster - any idea why?

The 379s go back and forth from Worksop to Doncaster with locomotive haulage to use the electric supply.

I think the working is this. 379018 is reported as the other unit taking its turn under the wires today.

5Q22 0830 Worksop Up Receptions to Doncaster Royal Mail Terml
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K03181/2023-09-01/detailed#allox_id=0

5Q23 1403 Doncaster Royal Mail Terml to Worksop Up Receptions
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K03184/2023-09-01/detailed

 

[Sutton in Ant]

I wonder if the 379s are getting a run out again due to possibly being leased out? Maybe, the negotiations with GTR GN are going positively and perhaps a deal is close. I may be wrong or I may be right.

 

[dk1]

I wonder if the 379s are getting a run out again due to possibly being leased out? Maybe, the negotiations with GTR GN are going positively and perhaps a deal is close. I may be wrong or I may be right.

The four Norwich based units were dragged under the wires roughly once a month.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I wonder if the 379s are getting a run out again due to possibly being leased out? Maybe, the negotiations with GTR GN are going positively and perhaps a deal is close. I may be wrong or I may be right.

More a case of just preventing them decaying too much rather than a specific new use in mind I am afraid. Need to warm them up occasionally to drive the damp out of the coaches and particularly the electrics. Has always happened as @dk1 says below. Significant would be if it was not done as that really indicates eventual demise planned or otherwise.

The four Norwich based units were dragged under the wires roughly once a month.

 

[Millercool21]

Does Akiem still have high leasing costs for the 379s, or is it a case of finding a new home?

 

[43096]

Does Akiem still have high leasing costs for the 379s, or is it a case of finding a new home?

Anyone who knows won’t be stating it publicly - it’s commercially confidential.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

Does anybody know of any further developments concerning the 379s to GN possibly?

 

[Millercool21]

I have a thought, some class 700s run on Great Northern services still operating under the Thameslink brand, if Great Northern were to have some 379s could they could replace the class 700s on these services?

 

[87015]

I have a thought, some class 700s run on Great Northern services still operating under the Thameslink brand, if Great Northern were to have some 379s could they could replace the class 700s on these services?

No they, they’ll replace 387s to Southern. They are on retainer at GTR, not available to anyone else, just waiting for them to bring them in rather than store them.

 

[Millercool21]

Before 313s were replaced there was a decent amount of 8 car 377s to Bognor. Now they are all 4 coaches until they reach Horsham. Just shows how southern have to stretch there fleet to the limit.

 

[JonathanH]

Before 313s were replaced there was a decent amount of 8 car 377s to Bognor. Now they are all 4 coaches until they reach Horsham.

Can you give examples of services that specifically do not have enough carriages for the demand on the Arun Valley route?

Just shows how southern have to stretch there fleet to the limit.

It doesn't show that. A succession of train failures would show that, but shorter formations could be made at any time to reflect demand.

Southern could take on more stock, and still choose not to run longer formations between Bognor Regis and Horsham.

 

[PGAT]

If longer formations were to run on the Arun Valley Line, they should go to the Southampton/Portsmouth portions as they actually get busy on the weekend

 

[Bald Rick]

If longer formations were to run on the Arun Valley Line, they should go to the Southampton/Portsmouth portions as they actually get busy on the weekend

There wont be any Arun Valley trains to Southampton soon!

 

[Energy]

No they, they’ll replace 387s to Southern. They are on retainer at GTR, not available to anyone else, just waiting for them to bring them in rather than store them.

379s on a retainer to GTR? Good sign.

 

[Mamorin]

Didn't know the 379s are being retained for GTR, makes sence though since who else would even want/need the 379s?