2023 Israel - Hamas / Hezbollah war

[baza585]

The protests are scheduled for 1pm and nowhere near the cenotaph - I would say that there is a very small chance of disruption of remembrance day ceremonies.

The Cenotaph is not the only place in London where Remembrance Day ceremonies will be taking place on Sunday.

Is there any point to the demonstrations? I doubt neither Hamas nor Israel will change what they are doing as a result of a demo in London.

Or is it just virtue-signalling?

 

[MCR247]

The question you have to ask. Why was there not a march for a ceasefire within a few days of Hammas invading Israel?

Surely that was the time for those wanting a peaceful resolution to make a stand?

My personal answer to that would be its likely because that wasn’t the start of the war. I think it is also fair to say it was a very fast paced situation. There have been calls for ceasefires for a long time before this. It soon became apparent that Israel wished to respond in the way that they have, which I wouldn’t say is surprising. What I think did surprise people (as in the people marching for a ceasefire) was the fact that Western leaders did not (even cautiously) advise against this, instead they quickly came out in full uncritical support. Even when it became clear that they planned to commit war crimes and genocide (in the minds of the people marching for a ceasefire).

Of course I am clearly generalising the thoughts and opinions of a large diverse group of people, so this won’t apply to all of them.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

It may be surprising on the surface but it really isn’t a surprise that the USA/West has other motives especially when you look at history (not just specific to issue of Israel but just the way the US has always operated) and do a bit of research. Israel receives and continues to receive a huge amount of aid from the United States. E.g. in 2021, Israel received 3.3 billion dollars from the US far more than any other country. Joe Biden famously said in 1986 which you can easily find on YouTube, “Were there not an Israel, the United States of America would have to invent an Israel to protect her interest in the region”which sums up how the US views Israel as a colony. And I’ll say it again, let’s not pretend this is a new humanitarian crisis. This has been happening for the last 75+ years and the fact that the US has turned a blind eye to it (whilst continuously giving it large amounts of financial aid!) despite many well respected human rights organisations continuously speaking up about the crisis shouldn’t come as a surprise that they have and will always support Israel. Any criticism of Israel gets a backlash as being anti-Semitic- earlier this year, a lawmaker called Israel a “racist state” and received huge amounts of backlash from both the democrats and republicans. In the end, she apologised for it and the US house passed a resolution to say that Israel is not a racist state.

The resolution, which was introduced by Texas Republican August Pfluger, says "the State of Israel is not a racist or apartheid state" and rejects "all forms of antisemitism and xenophobia, and the United States will always be a staunch partner and supporter of Israel."

 

[nw1]

I think making a statement that "the US will always be a staunch partner and supporter of" any state is a bit binding. Any state could go rogue, and become a dictatorship (including the US itself).

 

[RT4038]

I think making a statement that "the US will always be a staunch partner and supporter of" any state is a bit binding. Any state could go rogue, and become a dictatorship (including the US itself).

If that happened, in spite of the considerable US influence, then presumably another resolution could be passed?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2023 ==

According to YouGov 56% of Britons have sympathy for both sides of this conflict, out of 6 options in the poll conducted:



This goes against both the Government stance and media narrative seemingly only favouring Israel, and shows why there is visible discontent over the whole issue as a result. We have more in common with the citizens of any other country than each group of citizens has with their respective government.

Sympathy for both sides does not imply in equal amounts, and therefore needs to be viewed circumspectly.

The counterargument would be that 8% and 9% are each worryingly large raw numbers of people; those groups clearly hold strong, entrenched and extreme views in having no sympathy for the other country's citizens, depsite the obvious suffering of innocent citizens of both, and therefore such extremists will be disproportionately represented in protests, marches or online discussion.

No doubt such similar percentages are to be found on the ground in the respective warring populations?

 

[gabrielhj07]

The history and context surrounding this conflict is extremely complex. Gross simplifications and picking sides based on blind emotion is always unwise, though worryingly common, especially on social media.

That said, a few things seem to be the case. Both sides have an interest in maintaining the appearance that the other side wants to wipe them out. This maintains the need for extreme positions in the leadership of both, and polarises the region in favour of the incumbent groups. To this end, they will both provoke each other to instigate a retaliation, then claiming that the other is behaving in a disproportionate manner.

This time, it was Hamas that moved first, launching an attack on the civilians of Israel that was obviously going to warrant a response. Both sides know full well that they're killing civilians, but in slightly different circumstances it seems. Israel is unable to distinguish between civilian and military targets, not helped by Hamas' obfuscation of the two. Hamas seems to have objectives of its own against Israeli civilians, but perhaps more pertinent is it's willingness to use Palestinians as 'human shields' in its attacks. Importantly, both sides know that their actions against civilians specifically, will antagonise the other enough to guarantee further conflict, thus keeping the cycle going.


Much has been said about the apparent failure of Israel's security to become aware of, and thus prevent October's attacks in the first place. This seems unlikely given the reputation Israel has built for itself in this area. I would not be surprised at all if Israeli intelligence was aware of Hamas' plans, yet allowed them to take place to justify a more comprehensive retaliation, possibly with a view to taking over the Palestinian territories once and for all, although it is too early to know.

Either way, the essential problem remains that should one side lay down their arms, the other will overrun them.

Back home, it is unfortunate yet unsurprising that much of the political left is blindly taking the side of Hamas, gripped by an inability to condemn their actions, and falling so easily for the emotive nonsense covering social media.

 

[davews]

Response just received from the petition I recently signed, gives a concise summary of the government position but as usual with these things commits to nothing.

Archived Petition: Seek a ceasefire and to end Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip

We want the Government to seek a ceasefire and also seek to address the root cause of the current conflict by promoting dialogue and advocating for the end of Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

petition.parliament.uk

The Government has responded to the petition you signed – “Seek a ceasefire and to end Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip”.


Government responded:

We are focused on conflict resolution. We have consistently called for humanitarian pauses to allow aid in and hostages out, and welcome the announcement of four-hour pauses as a first step.

As the Prime Minister has said: following Hamas’ horrific terrorist attacks on 7 October, there is no scenario where Hamas can be allowed to control Gaza again. That is why we are not at this stage calling for a general ceasefire, which would potentially allow Hamas to regroup and entrench its position. The United Kingdom is supportive of humanitarian pauses as part of measures to facilitate the flow of life-saving humanitarian aid and ensure civilians are safe.
The UK’s longstanding position on the Middle East Peace Process is clear: we remain committed to a two-state solution, and support a negotiated settlement leading to a safe and secure Israel living alongside a viable and sovereign Palestinian state. We do not believe that a long-term presence of Israeli security forces within Gaza would be of benefit to Israelis or Palestinians, and will foster discontent in the region.
In their diplomatic engagements with governments in the region and beyond, the Prime Minister, Foreign Secretary, and Lord Ahmad, the Minister of State for the Middle East, have all also discussed ways to establish Israeli-Palestinian dialogue and to prevent wider regional escalation. This includes the King of Jordan, the President of Egypt, the Prime Minister of Israel, Palestinian Authority President Abbas, the President of Turkey, the Amir of Qatar, the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, the UN Secretary General and the leaders of France, Canada, Italy, the USA and Germany. The Foreign Secretary visited Israel on 11 October, Egypt on 19 October, attended a summit convened by President Sisi in Egypt on 21 October, visited the United Arab Emirates on 30 October, and has this week met with G7 Foreign Ministers in Japan, and Arab Foreign Ministers in Saudi Arabia. Lord Ahmad visited Egypt on 20-21 October, Israel and the OPTs on 1-2 November, and Morocco on 7-8 November.
Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office

 

[yorkie]

There is a lot of stuff in this thread that needs challenging but I don't have the time to cover it all, but this is a very distorted view:

Back home, it is unfortunate yet unsurprising that much of the political left is blindly taking the side of Hamas, gripped by an inability to condemn their actions, and falling so easily for the emotive nonsense covering social media.

Do you really believe that? This is the rhetoric the extreme right want people to believe, but it's not actually true.

Any hint or suggestion that people either need to support an extreme right Israeli regime that disregards international law and is desperately trying to oppress what they see as an interior population, or a terrorist group (which is an unfortunate but inevitable byproduct of such oppression), with no in-between is absurd.

Similarly absurd is the idea that you can smash terrorism by killing thousands of civilians, destroying livelihoods, neighborhoods, civilian infrastructure, and generally making people more angry.

Before this war many ordinary Israelis were showing their frustration with their far right Government.

 

[Yew]

Back home, it is unfortunate yet unsurprising that much of the political left is blindly taking the side of Hamas, gripped by an inability to condemn their actions, and falling so easily for the emotive nonsense covering social media.

I fear that you're failing to differentiate between Hamas, and the civilians of the Gaza Strip in this situation.

 

[Bantamzen]

Response just received from the petition I recently signed, gives a concise summary of the government position but as usual with these things commits to nothing.

Archived Petition: Seek a ceasefire and to end Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip

We want the Government to seek a ceasefire and also seek to address the root cause of the current conflict by promoting dialogue and advocating for the end of Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

petition.parliament.uk

The Government has responded to the petition you signed – “Seek a ceasefire and to end Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip”.


Government responded:

Quite honestly I'm not entirely sure what this petition actually hoped for. The UK simply isn't in a position to negotiate a ceasefire, that it is up to the two countries and political parties involved. And to be quite frank they don't want Western involvement in the first place.

 

[mr_jrt]

If both parties don't want western involvement then presumably the Palestinians will be returning all the aid they've received from various countries, and likewise, the Israelis will be returning the huge amount of aid they've received from the US as well. You would think the precondition on receiving any aid would be to have measurable movement on progressing a peace settlement.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

The history and context surrounding this conflict is extremely complex. Gross simplifications and picking sides based on blind emotion is always unwise, though worryingly common, especially on social media.

That said, a few things seem to be the case. Both sides have an interest in maintaining the appearance that the other side wants to wipe them out. This maintains the need for extreme positions in the leadership of both, and polarises the region in favour of the incumbent groups. To this end, they will both provoke each other to instigate a retaliation, then claiming that the other is behaving in a disproportionate manner.

This time, it was Hamas that moved first, launching an attack on the civilians of Israel that was obviously going to warrant a response. Both sides know full well that they're killing civilians, but in slightly different circumstances it seems. Israel is unable to distinguish between civilian and military targets, not helped by Hamas' obfuscation of the two. Hamas seems to have objectives of its own against Israeli civilians, but perhaps more pertinent is it's willingness to use Palestinians as 'human shields' in its attacks. Importantly, both sides know that their actions against civilians specifically, will antagonise the other enough to guarantee further conflict, thus keeping the cycle going.


Much has been said about the apparent failure of Israel's security to become aware of, and thus prevent October's attacks in the first place. This seems unlikely given the reputation Israel has built for itself in this area. I would not be surprised at all if Israeli intelligence was aware of Hamas' plans, yet allowed them to take place to justify a more comprehensive retaliation, possibly with a view to taking over the Palestinian territories once and for all, although it is too early to know.

Either way, the essential problem remains that should one side lay down their arms, the other will overrun them.

Back home, it is unfortunate yet unsurprising that much of the political left is blindly taking the side of Hamas, gripped by an inability to condemn their actions, and falling so easily for the emotive nonsense covering social media.

Amnesty international:

Israel’s apartheid against Palestinians (Feb 2022)​

Apartheid​

In February, Amnesty International released a 280-page report showing how Israel was imposing an institutionalized regime of oppression and domination against the Palestinian people wherever it exercised control over their rights, fragmenting and segregating Palestinian citizens of Israel, residents of the OPT and Palestinian refugees denied the right of return. Through massive seizures of land and property, unlawful killings, infliction of serious injuries, forcible transfers, arbitrary restrictions on freedom of movement, and denial of nationality, among other inhuman or inhumane acts, Israeli officials would be responsible for the crime against humanity of apartheid, which falls under the jurisdiction of the ICC.1

Israel and Occupied Palestinian Territories: ‘They were just kids’: Evidence of war crimes during Israel’s August 2022 Gaza offensive (October 2022)​

This is in 2022 (I.e. Before the Hamas attack) and from Amnesty International. Again, it’s disgusting that people seem to think that this situation is somehow complex. It’s infuriating when you see people earlier in the thread saying things like “one side cares about civilians (I.e Israel) and one doesn’t.”!!! This is not even considering what’s happened since the Hamas attack. I would recommend you to read the full articles if you want to learn more.

Jeremy Corbyn (and others) were vilified by the mainstream media for wanting Hamas on the negotiation table, not because he necessarily liked them but knew that dialogue was important to restore peace. Yet, the United States and United Kingdom have given their full support to Israel which is quite literally a racist, apartheid state guilty of war crimes and people don’t seem to bat an eye lid. The national security minister appointed last year was convicted in an Israeli court for inciting racism and supporting an anti-Arab movement which Israel has outlawed as a terrorist organisation.

I have been impressed with the amount of people all over the world from all different backgrounds, celebrities, people who have had first hand experience of going to Israel, politicians (even from Israel!) and many Jews that have shown their support for Palestine. Let’s not forget what Nelson Mandela said about Palestine many years ago.

”We know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians.'

 

[gabrielhj07]

Do you really believe that? This is the rhetoric the extreme right want people to believe, but it's not actually true.

Based on what I have seen on social media, and from people I know, yes. Plenty of people are blindly supporting Israel as well, just in my experience not as many.

I fear that you're failing to differentiate between Hamas, and the civilians of the Gaza Strip in this situation.

I worry that many otherwise well-intentioned people are making that mistake, when (sensibly) advocating for the palestinian people.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

Based on what I have seen on social media, and from people I know, yes. Plenty of people are blindly supporting Israel as well, just in my experience not as many.



I worry that many otherwise well-intentioned people are making that mistake, when (sensibly) advocating for the palestinian people.

I’ve had very few replies to any of my posts here. Which part of a racist, apartheid state that is guilty of war crimes and has been oppressing people for many decades are you struggling to understand? Again, I’ll state that this has been happening before the latest Hamas attack (with plenty of articles in 2022 which I’ve added a few snippets off in my previous post quoted directly from Amnesty International) so there is no excuse to say that this is a complex issue. Again, these claims are from world renown human rights organisations unless you don’t believe them and are thinking they are false or made up? What has Nelson Mandela not seen or understood when he made that statement that you have?

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

The history and context surrounding this conflict is extremely complex. Gross simplifications and picking sides based on blind emotion is always unwise, though worryingly common, especially on social media.

That said, a few things seem to be the case. Both sides have an interest in maintaining the appearance that the other side wants to wipe them out. This maintains the need for extreme positions in the leadership of both, and polarises the region in favour of the incumbent groups. To this end, they will both provoke each other to instigate a retaliation, then claiming that the other is behaving in a disproportionate manner.

This time, it was Hamas that moved first, launching an attack on the civilians of Israel that was obviously going to warrant a response. Both sides know full well that they're killing civilians, but in slightly different circumstances it seems. Israel is unable to distinguish between civilian and military targets, not helped by Hamas' obfuscation of the two. Hamas seems to have objectives of its own against Israeli civilians, but perhaps more pertinent is it's willingness to use Palestinians as 'human shields' in its attacks. Importantly, both sides know that their actions against civilians specifically, will antagonise the other enough to guarantee further conflict, thus keeping the cycle going.


Much has been said about the apparent failure of Israel's security to become aware of, and thus prevent October's attacks in the first place. This seems unlikely given the reputation Israel has built for itself in this area. I would not be surprised at all if Israeli intelligence was aware of Hamas' plans, yet allowed them to take place to justify a more comprehensive retaliation, possibly with a view to taking over the Palestinian territories once and for all, although it is too early to know.

Either way, the essential problem remains that should one side lay down their arms, the other will overrun them.

Back home, it is unfortunate yet unsurprising that much of the political left is blindly taking the side of Hamas, gripped by an inability to condemn their actions, and falling so easily for the emotive nonsense covering social media.

Probably the most sensible post on this whole thread, well said.

 

[nw1]

Back home, it is unfortunate yet unsurprising that much of the political left is blindly taking the side of Hamas, gripped by an inability to condemn their actions, and falling so easily for the emotive nonsense covering social media.

They're not "taking the side of Hamas". Being outraged by Netanyahu bombing residential blocks and hospitals is not "taking the side of Hamas". Being outraged by the (thankfully ex-minister) Braverman apparently trying to paint pro-Palestine marches as "hate marches" is not "taking the side of Hamas".

The right seem to love creating false equivalences on this matter. Being sympathetic to Palestinians makes you pro-Hamas, apparently. Criticising Netanyahu's actions makes you anti-Semitic, apparently. Neither is true.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

Probably the most sensible post on this whole thread, well said.

Oh yeah for sure if we forget about everything that has happened before

This time, it was Hamas that moved first, launching an attack on the civilians of Israel that was obviously going to warrant a response.

 

[RT4038]

I’ve had very few replies to any of my posts here.

Probably partly because of a lack of interest in the subject in general and partly because can't be bothered to argue against such firmly held views treating others with such contempt. Perhaps people realise it is a complex issue, even if you don't consider it so.

Which part of a racist, apartheid state that is guilty of war crimes and has been oppressing people for many decades are you struggling to understand?

Israel was set up as a Jewish state; segregation and oppression (actual or perceived) are bound to result from that for anyone not Jewish. All part of the complex issue of history, cultures, security and a lot else. Whether it should have been set up like that is another complex issue and can be academically debated, but the clock cannot be turned back, even if some would like it to be.

Again, I’ll state that this has been happening before the latest Hamas attack (with plenty of articles in 2022 which I’ve added a few snippets off in my previous post quoted directly from Amnesty International) so there is no excuse to say that this is a complex issue. Again, these claims are from world renown human rights organisations unless you don’t believe them and are thinking they are false or made up?

A world renowned organisation well known for looking at issues through the lens of western liberal democratic society, which does not really exist in that area.

What has Nelson Mandela not seen or understood when he made that statement that you have?

Ah yes, and that gentleman's legacy has left a really nice country ......

 

[Bluejays]

This is in 2022 (I.e. Before the Hamas attack) and from Amnesty International. Again, it’s disgusting that people seem to think that this situation is somehow complex. It’s infuriating when you see people earlier in the thread saying things like “one side cares about civilians (I.e Israel) and one doesn’t.”!!! This is not even considering what’s happened since the Hamas attack. I would recommend you to read the full articles if you want to learn more.

Jeremy Corbyn (and others) were vilified by the mainstream media for wanting Hamas on the negotiation table, not because he necessarily liked them but knew that dialogue was important to restore peace. Yet, the United States and United Kingdom have given their full support to Israel which is quite literally a racist, apartheid state guilty of war crimes and people don’t seem to bat an eye lid. The national security minister appointed last year was convicted in an Israeli court for inciting racism and supporting an anti-Arab movement which Israel has outlawed as a terrorist organisation.

I have been impressed with the amount of people all over the world from all different backgrounds, celebrities, people who have had first hand experience of going to Israel, politicians (even from Israel!) and many Jews that have shown their support for Palestine. Let’s not forget what Nelson Mandela said about Palestine many years ago.

Negotiating with Hamas doesn't work, they're anti peace and absolutist. Peace won't be negotiated with Hamas, the best that can be hoped for is periods of calm. In much the same way the likes of smotrich and ben gvir are never going to seriously negotiate peace.

They're not "taking the side of Hamas". Being outraged by Netanyahu bombing residential blocks and hospitals is not "taking the side of Hamas". Being outraged by the (thankfully ex-minister) Braverman apparently trying to paint pro-Palestine marches as "hate marches" is not "taking the side of Hamas".

The right seem to love creating false equivalences on this matter. Being sympathetic to Palestinians makes you pro-Hamas, apparently. Criticising Netanyahu's actions makes you anti-Semitic, apparently. Neither is true.

Has anyone on here even gone close to saying that criticising Bibi is anti Semitic? While it does go on in some dark corners I'm sure, I'm hearing people talk about false claims of antisemitism a lot more than I'm actually seeing false claims of anti semitism

 

[nw1]

Has anyone on here even gone close to saying that criticising Bibi is anti Semitic? While it does go on in some dark corners I'm sure, I'm hearing people talk about false claims of antisemitism a lot more than I'm actually seeing false claims of anti semitism

How about the labelling of the pro-Palestine marches as "hate marches"? To me that seems to be creating an equivalence between attending a pro-Palestinian / peace march and anti-Semitism (assuming that this is the "hate" that Braverman, the Daily Express, and the like are referring to).

I'm not saying anyone on here is claiming that, for point of clarification.

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

Oh yeah for sure if we forget about everything that has happened before

Well yeah because it was all bollocks

 

[thenorthern]

Section 14a notices have been put in place at 10 London Terminals according to British Transport Police. This is of course to stop trespassers from protesting at stations on the grounds of safety and the fact that they are a nuisance to many passengers.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Looks like a 5 day ceasefire may be on the cards at last.

 

[nw1]

Well yeah because it was all bollocks

What was all "sloblock", so to speak? The notion that Palestinians have been mistreated?

 

[brad465]

50 hostages to be released over 4 days, during which time there will be a pause in fighting:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67481139

Fifty hostages to be released over four days - Israeli government​

In a statement, Israel's prime minister's office says 50 hostages will be released over the course of four days.
There will be a pause in fighting during this time, the statement added.

 

[Carlisle]

. I would not be surprised at all if Israeli intelligence was aware of Hamas' plans, yet allowed them to take place to justify a more comprehensive retaliation, possibly with a view to taking over the Palestinian territories once and for all, although it is too early to know.

An entirely believable outcome apart from suggesting a permanent re occupation, of which I’ve seen no evidence to support so far.

 

[RT4038]

An entirely believable outcome apart from suggesting a permanent re occupation, of which I’ve seen no evidence to support so far.

I cannot imagine why Israel would wish to take over Gaza; it would be a bucket load of trouble for no real gain?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I cannot imagine why Israel would wish to take over Gaza; it would be a bucket load of trouble for no real gain?

I think it maybe Israel’s ultimate goal

 

[DustyBin]

I think it maybe Israel’s ultimate goal

Possibly, but I really wouldn't like to say.

I don't think they particularly want to occupy Gaza (they've tried to offload it previously to Egypt who didn't want it either), however they may see occupation as the lesser of two evils (as opposed to allowing Hamas etc. to regain control).

An alternative would be to create conditions whereby a third party "occupies" Gaza, oversees it's administration, and hopefully keeps the peace. I believe this has been discussed previously, but understandably no one wanted to take responsibility as the situation was so volatile. I'm probably being far too optimistic here, but such an arrangement could in my opinion bring a solution, and possibly even be the first step towards establishing a viable Palestinian state.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

We can hope. We can hope.