UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[The Ham]

What do you mean by there should not be a market for them? Markets tend to define themselves.

The question is what do you get from an SUV which you can't get from other cars?

BTW statistical they are no safety than other cars, as whilst you may well have a marginally better view of the road ahead, they tend to be heavier and so take longer to slow down.

Their boot space isn't much better (and certainly not as good as estate cars).

You can't carry more people (unlike people carriers, which they have often replaced).

 

[cactustwirly]

The question is what do you get from an SUV which you can't get from other cars?

BTW statistical they are no safety than other cars, as whilst you may well have a marginally better view of the road ahead, they tend to be heavier and so take longer to slow down.

Their boot space isn't much better (and certainly not as good as estate cars).

You can't carry more people (unlike people carriers, which they have often replaced).

And they guzzle more fuel than the equivalent sized estate/hatchback, and the purchase price is often more.

 

[Bald Rick]

they tend to be heavier and so take longer to slow down.

But they have bigger brakes… so retardation is at the same rate. In my experience of emergency stops in hatchbacks and SUVs.

 

[bspahh]

78% <edit>33%</edit> But they have bigger brakes… so retardation is at the same rate. In my experience of emergency stops in hatchbacks and SUVs.

That is fine, whilst they have grip. A 2000kg car has more kinetic energy than a 1500kg one.

I once got hit by a Land Rover Discovery I. The driver had missed their braking point for a roundabout and locked their brakes with the steering on full lock. When they slowed enough to regain grip, the car lurched to the right and rolled, just as I came around the roundabout. I was trundling along at 40mph in rush hour traffic, perhaps going 30mph around the roundabout. The middle of the roundabout is built up, so you can't see over it, at least in a car. I had ~30m between the point where I could see the exit from the roundabout and the point of impact. I swerved away and it clipped the back end of my car.

If the Land Rover had been a car, I might still have been hit, but it would have been less likely to roll.
If I had been half a second further down the road, it would have been a head-on collision. I would rather do that with a car on its wheels, than an upside-down 2 tonne Discovery, in case my car slid under the nose, so its engine would end up in my face.

 

[Bletchleyite]

30mph is quite fast to be taking a roundabout...

 

[gabrielhj07]

30mph is quite fast to be taking a roundabout...

Depends whether it’s a small one or one of those big motorway-esque ones.

 

[bspahh]

This is the roundabout. Its on the A10 between Cambridge and Ely. https://maps.app.goo.gl/rHiAPNfWj8LYaLUJ7

I don't know precisely what speed I was going, but it was "trundling along in rush hour traffic" and not driving fast.

These are some photos showing the damage to my Focus and the Discovery. The top right picture shows the slid marks where it lurched across the road.

I went back later in the evening, and picked up a couple of quid in loose change that had fallen out of the Discovery.


Hopefully a modern electric SUV will have more of its weight low down, and stiffer suspension than a 1994 Discovery so they should be less likely to roll.

In any case, hatchbacks and estates are less common than SUVs, so you might not have much of a choice. The likes of Ford, KIA & Hyundai don't sell an electric Mondeo-style hatchback or estate, only SUV-style things, like a Mustang, Niro, Kona, EV6 and Ionic 5.

 

[Noddy]

In any case, hatchbacks and estates are less common than SUVs, so you might not have much of a choice. The likes of Ford, KIA & Hyundai don't sell an electric Mondeo-style hatchback or estate, only SUV-style things, like a Mustang, Niro, Kona, EV6 and Ionic 5.

Tbf to Hyundai (and not withstanding the forthcoming Ioniq 7 which probably is a SUV) the Ioniq 5 isn’t an SUV-it’s just a very large hatchback (whatever the marketing folk say). The Ioniq 6 is described by Top Gear magazine as a ‘Slippery saloon streamliner’!

 

[trebor79]

That is fine, whilst they have grip. A 2000kg car has 78% more kinetic energy than a 1500kg one.

That's why heavy cars have fatter tyres.

I find I tend to drive more carefully/slowly in my EV at roundabouts etc. not because it's hard to stop, but becaus I don't want to touch the brakes, to max out the regenerative breaking. And I know I can be back to 60mph or whatever pretty much instantly upon exit, so there's less perceived need to carry speed into the roundabout.

It's much more nuanced than heavier = more likely to have an accident.

 

[The Ham]

That's why heavy cars have fatter tyres.

I find I tend to drive more carefully/slowly in my EV at roundabouts etc. not because it's hard to stop, but becaus I don't want to touch the brakes, to max out the regenerative breaking. And I know I can be back to 60mph or whatever pretty much instantly upon exit, so there's less perceived need to carry speed into the roundabout.

It's much more nuanced than heavier = more likely to have an accident.

Indeed, however the point I was making was that the overall difference from the perception that higher car = safer is also not so straight forward as statistically SUV's aren't safer (they're also not less safe) than normal cars.

Diving position "should" help with safety, but it does appear that the benefit from this is being lost in other ways - potentially the extra weight could be a factor.

Bottom line is, unless others can highlight a reason for them, there's not really much to make it worth having one over another type of car.

The big draw for car makers is that they can sell them as a premium product and so can make more money over their other products - as such some question have we just fallen for the marketing?

 

[DustyBin]

Bottom line is, unless others can highlight a reason for them, there's not really much to make it worth having one over another type of car.

The only practical advantage I can think of is that they're easier to get in and out of. However, so are MPVs which appear to have simply fallen out of fashion.

The big draw for car makers is that they can sell them as a premium product and so can make more money over their other products - as such some question have we just fallen for the marketing?

Yes, pretty much. Hopefully they're a fad, although I'm not so sure....

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only practical advantage I can think of is that they're easier to get in and out of. However, so are MPVs which appear to have simply fallen out of fashion.

Many mainstream SUVs are just MPVs with a bodykit. The Kuga very much is. It does exactly the same thing as a medium 5 seat MPV (say a Citroen C4 Picasso, not the Grand version) but looks cooler. indeed it looks very similar to the C-max indeed, which is an MPV!

Similarly "compact crosses" are hatchbacks with a bodykit and a miniscule lift. For instance a Vauxhall Mokka (new version) is basically an Astra lifted by a few inches with a rugged look.

Why people get their backs up about this I have no idea. If you oppose SUVs (UK ones, not those stupid American pick up things) you must surely also oppose MPVs, otherwise it's just cyclists (and it is mostly cyclists) getting excessively het up about what cars look like.

 

[bspahh]

That's why heavy cars have fatter tyres.

The fatter tyres do need to be in contact with some road.

It's much more nuanced than heavier = more likely to have an accident.

Heavier = more likely to cause damage as the extra kinetic energy dissipates.

What would have happened if the Park Royal and Wimbledon crashes had been with cars and not a Range Rover/Land Rover?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What would have happened if the Park Royal and Wimbledon crashes had been with cars and not a Range Rover/Land Rover?

What if they'd been with an articulated lorry or bus?

 

[bspahh]

What if they'd been with an articulated lorry or bus?

They would have been driven by a professional driver who had passed a stricter driving test.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They would have been driven by a professional driver who had passed a stricter driving test.

Excuse me while I laugh my head off. Many buses and lorries are driven extremely poorly, in the case of lorries often aggressively.

And "white van man" is second to private hire "taxis" for bad driving. If you see a white van or minicab plates in the UK you are almost certainly already seeing bad driving of some kind.

Do I recall you're not in the UK - Germany is it? I think those trades are (like many) far more professionalised over there than over here.

 

[bspahh]

Excuse me while I laugh my head off. Many buses and lorries are driven extremely poorly, in the case of lorries often aggressively.

And "white van man" is second to private hire "taxis" for bad driving. If you see a white van or minicab plates in the UK you are almost certainly already seeing bad driving of some kind.

Do I recall you're not in the UK - Germany is it? I think those trades are (like many) far more professionalised over there than over here.

I live in Cambridgeshire. Articulated lorries are not driven by "white van man".

 

[Bletchleyite]

I live in Cambridgeshire. Articulated lorries are not driven by "white van man".

White vans are considerably larger than any SUV.

 

[gabrielhj07]

Many mainstream SUVs are just MPVs with a bodykit. The Kuga very much is. It does exactly the same thing as a medium 5 seat MPV (say a Citroen C4 Picasso, not the Grand version) but looks cooler. indeed it looks very similar to the C-max indeed, which is an MPV!

Similarly "compact crosses" are hatchbacks with a bodykit and a miniscule lift. For instance a Vauxhall Mokka (new version) is basically an Astra lifted by a few inches with a rugged look.

Why people get their backs up about this I have no idea. If you oppose SUVs (UK ones, not those stupid American pick up things) you must surely also oppose MPVs, otherwise it's just cyclists (and it is mostly cyclists) getting excessively het up about what cars look like.

I'm not sure this is a valid comparison. Proper MPVs are large, practical cars designed to fulfil a purpose. The Citroen C8, for example, is a seriously practical car - it has a huge boot and room for 5 full seats, or 7, as the case may be.

The Ford Kuga that you mention is not designed with practicality in mind. It only has room for 4.5 people and the boot suffers from the compromises brought by the relatively high floor and sloping roof.

 

[DustyBin]

Many mainstream SUVs are just MPVs with a bodykit. The Kuga very much is. It does exactly the same thing as a medium 5 seat MPV (say a Citroen C4 Picasso, not the Grand version) but looks cooler. indeed it looks very similar to the C-max indeed, which is an MPV!

Similarly "compact crosses" are hatchbacks with a bodykit and a miniscule lift. For instance a Vauxhall Mokka (new version) is basically an Astra lifted by a few inches with a rugged look.

This is a bit of an oversimplification, but yes, most if not all are car-based in terms of their platform.

Why people get their backs up about this I have no idea. If you oppose SUVs (UK ones, not those stupid American pick up things) you must surely also oppose MPVs, otherwise it's just cyclists (and it is mostly cyclists) getting excessively het up about what cars look like.

Subjectively I think they invariably look rubbish, but also their height means that they obscure my view at junctions and roundabouts etc. which is more of an actual problem. There's also the issue of reduced efficiency, obviously.

The difference with MPVs is that they aren't generally bought by people outside of their target market, whereas SUVs are replacing traditional cars (as well as MPVs) for no good reason.

I'm not sure this is a valid comparison. Proper MPVs are large, practical cars designed to fulfil a purpose. The Citroen C8, for example, is a seriously practical car - it has a huge boot and room for 5 full seats, or 7, as the case may be.

The Ford Kuga that you mention is not designed with practicality in mind. It only has room for 4.5 people and the bot suffers from the compromises brought by the relatively high floor and sloping roof.

Agreed.

In terms of boot space, here are the respective capacities of the various Focus/Focus derived variants:

• Focus Hatchback: 375 litres or 1,237 litres with the sears folded flat.
• Kuga: 412 litres or 1,534 litres with the seats folded flat.
• C-Max: 432 litres or 1,684 litres with the seats folded flat.
• Focus Estate: 575 litres or 1,650 litres with the seats folded flat.
• Grand C-Max: 755 litres or 1,742 litres with the seats folded flat.

Each to their own, however I'd assert that the Kuga is a fashion accessory as opposed to the practical option.

 

[trebor79]

Excuse me while I laugh my head off. Many buses and lorries are driven extremely poorly, in the case of lorries often aggressively.

Yup. Pet hate of mine are the lorry drivers who indicate to pull out on the motorway and immediately start to change lanes regardless of the fact that I may be mid overtaking them. Just trying to aggressively make me slow down to let them out so they don't miss their chance to spend 3 miles overtaking at 0.1mph quicker than the lorry they were following.
My response usually is to squeeze my right foot to bring me alongside the cab and lean on the horn. I stay there until they lose momentum and give up on the manoeuvre entirely.

 

[gabrielhj07]

Agreed.

In terms of boot space, here are the respective capacities of the various Focus/Focus derived variants:

• Focus Hatchback: 375 litres or 1,237 litres with the sears folded flat.
• Kuga: 412 litres or 1,534 litres with the seats folded flat.
• C-Max: 432 litres or 1,684 litres with the seats folded flat.
• Focus Estate: 575 litres or 1,650 litres with the seats folded flat.
• Grand C-Max: 755 litres or 1,742 litres with the seats folded flat.

Each to their own, however I'd assert that the Kuga is a fashion accessory as opposed to the practical option.

Indeed, there is almost nothing SUV's can offer above their hatchback/estate counterparts beyond the opportunity to pay higher upfront and running costs.

 

[AM9]

Yup. Pet hate of mine are the lorry drivers who indicate to pull out on the motorway and immediately start to change lanes regardless of the fact that I may be mid overtaking them. Just trying to aggressively make me slow down to let them out so they don't miss their chance to spend 3 miles overtaking at 0.1mph quicker than the lorry they were following.
My response usually is to squeeze my right foot to bring me alongside the cab and lean on the horn. I stay there until they lose momentum and give up on the manoeuvre entirely.

As a slight aside, does anybody here know if the type and loudness of a vehicle's horn is limited by law, (other than the requirement preventing multi tone horns? I'm thinking particularly the difference between a truck and a car horn, apart from larger vehicles probably being 24V rather than 12v.

 

[Bald Rick]

As a slight aside, does anybody here know if the type and loudness of a vehicle's horn is limited by law, (other than the requirement preventing multi tone horns? I'm thinking particularly the difference between a truck and a car horn, apart from larger vehicles probably being 24V rather than 12v.

Yep, by EC Directive 70/388.

Must be between 105db(A) and 118db(A).

Relevant document linked below; way too long to quote!

Directive - 70/388 - EN - EUR-Lex

eur-lex.europa.eu

 

[Ediswan]

As a slight aside, does anybody here know if the type and loudness of a vehicle's horn is limited by law, (other than the requirement preventing multi tone horns? I'm thinking particularly the difference between a truck and a car horn, apart from larger vehicles probably being 24V rather than 12v.

MoT rules here: https://www.motester.co.uk/mot-test-of-horn/

For vehicles first used on or after 1 August 1973, the sound emitted must be continuous or uniform. It can’t be harsh or grating.

The following can’t be used as an audible warning:

• gongs
• bells
• sirens
• anything that has more than one tone

AIUI 'more than one tone' refers to playing a tune, rather than multiple simultaneous tones.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, there is almost nothing SUV's can offer above their hatchback/estate counterparts beyond the opportunity to pay higher upfront and running costs.

Comfort and space for the driver is why I tend to buy tall cars. Only a very large estate offers that.

That space being vertical instead of horizontal makes better use of road space when both driving and parked.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Nov 2023 ==

Subjectively I think they invariably look rubbish, but also their height means that they obscure my view at junctions and roundabouts etc.

Only because you drive a lower car, an increasingly unpopular choice

which is more of an actual problem. There's also the issue of reduced efficiency, obviously.

Not by much, I get 50mpg ish from the Kuga, which is similar to the Mondeo estate I'd probably otherwise have. The Focus might be a bit better but has less room for the driver (though admittedly a slightly bigger boot).

The difference with MPVs is that they aren't generally bought by people outside of their target market, whereas SUVs are replacing traditional cars (as well as MPVs) for no good reason.

I'm not sure that's actually true. There was a phase, early 2000s probably, when almost every family car was some sort of MPV.

Agreed.

In terms of boot space, here are the respective capacities of the various Focus/Focus derived variants:

• Focus Hatchback: 375 litres or 1,237 litres with the sears folded flat.
• Kuga: 412 litres or 1,534 litres with the seats folded flat.
• C-Max: 432 litres or 1,684 litres with the seats folded flat.
• Focus Estate: 575 litres or 1,650 litres with the seats folded flat.
• Grand C-Max: 755 litres or 1,742 litres with the seats folded flat.

Each to their own, however I'd assert that the Kuga is a fashion accessory as opposed to the practical option.

Why should one not buy a car one likes the look of?

My point was just that if you're anti the Kuga you should also be anti the C-Max because they are near enough the same size.

 

[AM9]

MoT rules here: https://www.motester.co.uk/mot-test-of-horn/

AIUI 'more than one tone' refers to playing a tune, rather than multiple simultaneous tones.

Yes I found that but I was wondering if a loud blast from a small vehicle on a motorway would be effective when warning HGV drivers. After all, they are all driving at the same('ish) speeds and the size of the vehicle is irrelevant in terms of warnings.

 

[DustyBin]

Only because you drive a lower car, an increasingly unpopular choice

An increasingly unpopular choice, but for no logical reason!

Not by much, I get 50mpg ish from the Kuga, which is similar to the Mondeo estate I'd probably otherwise have. The Focus might be a bit better but has less room for the driver (though admittedly a slightly bigger boot).

It will depend on your driving style and type of journey to an extent (I’d say you’re doing well there incidentally!).

However, if you look at the “real world” mpg of the the 1.5 EcoBoost Focus and Kuga (same output and both FWD), the difference is circa 14mpg which is fairly significant. The official figures are less divergent, but still favour the Focus.

I'm not sure that's actually true. There was a phase, early 2000s probably, when almost every family car was some sort of MPV.

This is anecdotal obviously, but I can’t remember this being the case. I was finishing school at around that time, and most of my friends parents had saloons and large hatchbacks. Things like Galaxys and Espaces were around, but they weren’t all that common.

Why should one not buy a car one likes the look of?

One should, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder, clearly!

My point was just that if you're anti the Kuga you should also be anti the C-Max because they are near enough the same size.

“Anti” is probably a bit strong, I just don’t like the way the industry is moving towards ever larger, higher(!) and heavier cars. The point re the C-Max is that it offers a significant practical advantage in terms of space, so has a genuine “purpose”.

 

[Energy]

This is anecdotal obviously, but I can’t remember this being the case. I was finishing school at around that time, and most of my friends parents had saloons and large hatchbacks. Things like Galaxys and Espaces were around, but they weren’t all that common.

7 seaters were popular with bigger families, 5 seaters like the C max tended to be quite a lot more than the hatchbacks they were based on for not that much more space.

MPVs aren't at all desirable as well.

 

[AM9]

MPVs aren't at all desirable as well.

In your opinion.