Rishi Sunak and the Conservative Party.

[GS250]

Hamas is a product of Israel due to decades of progressively corralling the Palestinians into ever smaller areas they fermented the situation and then Mr security Netanyahu was asleep on the job. If Sunak or any leader round the world had taken a proportionate approach that reflected the history the marchers may not have come out. That said the marchers behaved exemplary and despite the best efforts of Sue Ellen she didnt get the outcome she desired and the Met have shone through not forgetting they also had two premier league matches to police as well.

Difficult to disagree with the first part to be fair.

However whilst the EDL types went on some kind of moronic rampage, attacking what they see as the enemy within (the Police), there's not been any evidence so far of some of the quite horrific placards that a minority of the pro Palestine group have shown.

 

[nw1]

To be fair this is about the sum total of Britain's 'far right'. A relatively small group of football hooligan types out for a bit of a tear up. Little in the way of organisation or having any funding links with the wealthy types who live in the shadows.

They have turned up in the past before Braverman was anything of influence so I wouldn't put this all down to her, no matter how incompetent she may be.

I doubt they would even have bothered had Braverman and Sunak not tried to stir up controversy about it as part of their own political games. As a result of their pronouncements, this march, much more so than any of the others, got a lot of publicity - though with its peaceful nature it likely helped the Palestinian-rights cause.

And that publicity is what brought the far right in. At the end of the day, I think that if Sunak and Braverman hadn't tried to make out that a pro-peace march on Armistice Day well after 11am and well away from the Cenotaph was such a cardinal sin, then Yaxley-Lennon and co would probably not have got so wound up.

 

[Pete_uk]

All this leaves me feel so sad and disappointed.

 

[yorkie]

I doubt they would even have bothered had Braverman and Sunak not tried to stir up controversy about it as part of their own political games. As a result of their pronouncements, this march, much more so than any of the others, got a lot of publicity - though with its peaceful nature it likely helped the Palestinian-rights cause.

And that publicity is what brought the far right in. At the end of the day, I think that if Sunak and Braverman hadn't tried to make out that a pro-peace march on Armistice Day well after 11am and well away from the Cenotaph was such a cardinal sin, then Yaxley-Lennon and co would probably not have got so wound up.

Exactly; Sunak and Braverman were extremely irresponsible and it's extremely fortunate the outcome wasn't far worse.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Nov 2023 ==

All this leaves me feel so sad and disappointed.

On the plus side, we're even closer to a heavy Tory defeat, as they have completely misjudged this and most ordinary people know it.

Apologists are rather thin on the ground at the moment, and their arguments simply don't wash.

 

[jon0844]

There has been some violence this evening and unless there are more arrests than this morning, you can be sure that tomorrow will have the papers and GB News demanding to know why the police only arrested the far right marchers.

And someone from GB News was photographed in the thick of things. Obviously there in a professional news reporting capacity of course.

 

[DerekC]

And since she hasn't been sacked as she should have been, tomorrow we have to put up with Suella Braverman laying a wreath at the Cenotaph. That will be hard to watch.

 

[GusB]

There has been some violence this evening and unless there are more arrests than this morning, you can be sure that tomorrow will have the papers and GB News demanding to know why the police only arrested the far right marchers.

And someone from GB News was photographed in the thick of things. Obviously there in a professional news reporting capacity of course.

From what I've seen, most of the violence came from the pissed-up nutters who thought it was a jolly good idea to go up to London and try to "protect" the Cenotaph in the face of the "Jihadi onslaught".

The television news report that I watched earlier indicated that there were about a dozen arrests made on the "pro-Palestinian" side. I can't remember if it was the BBC or Channel 4 - I watched both.

I'm not one to praise the Met, given its appalling record on various issues, but on this occasion I think that all credit should go to Mark Rowley and his team for doing the right thing today.

Braverman should be hanging her head in shame. A) She tried to undermine the operational independence of the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police and B) her dog whistling effectively granted permission to the far right nutcases to disrupt the Armistice Day commemorations when the peace movement had zero intent in doing so.

She has to go. Now.

 

[nw1]

Apparently the Express still seem to be implying that the pro-Palestinian marches are "hate marches" and equivalent to the far-right thugs.

Newspaper headlines: 'Sack her now' and 'dignity and dishonour'

The papers lead on Saturday’s Armistice Day demonstrators clashing with police.

www.bbc.co.uk

An estimated 300,000 protesters had descended on London to stage their fourth march in as many weeks against Israeli military action in Gaza. They ignored the Prime Minister's plea to respect Armistice Day events with another display of hatred on the streets of London.

It says very bad things about us as a nation when you see that people actually buy the Express, which obviously they must do otherwise it would be unviable. Even worse than the Mail and Sun, this hard-right rag just manages to stay within the bounds of respectability (they will not go as far as actually supporting Yaxley-Lennon) but has nonetheless, certainly in the past, IMO promoted hatred towards certain groups.

 

[ScotGG]

Both sides had violent elements and included idiots. Just at different times of the day.

EDL types in the morning. Fighting police. Minority of Palestinian protesters in the evening. Throwing fireworks at police.

Good news is it really is a tiny fraction of the population on either side (left and right wings). Far less worrying than most other developed nations which have seen more violent scenes.

It is interesting though how each side tries to pretend only morons existed on the other though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Nov 2023 ==

As for the Express it's dying a death. Sells barely any copies. Online it's in freefall. It's owner - Reach - who also owns the Mirror and many awful local sites like EssexLive, MEN and MyLondon has cut 1000 jobs this year including 450 announced this week.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Nov 2023 ==

It's interesting how contrived Reach are as a media organisation. They'll have someone write something in the right wing Express then the next day something else in left wing Mirror.

It's all really I suspect so they can keep getting taxpayer money from this govt (which they've done very well from while cutting actual decent journalists). They'll want that gravy train to keep going if/when Labour win.

"Save journalism" the managers cry as sacking staff and seeking public money which they benefit from. Healthy perks at the top.

 

[Gloster]

Some parts of the media seem to be portraying events as though there were equal amounts of disorder and arrests on both sides of the argument. That may be true, but from the (incomplete) details I have seen there seems to have been slightly more from the right than the pro-Palestinian groups, which the papers assume are all ‘lefties’. But the number attending the march seems to have been in the region of 300,000 and you are always going to get some idiots or troublemakers in such a large crowd, while the number of Yaxley-Lennon’s friends seems to have been in the hundreds, but they still had plenty arrested. Those less than scrupulous media outlets are making the best of a bad job: as they didn’t manage to create disorder by inflaming the situation in advance, they are going to push as much of the blame onto their hate figures. We await Braverman’s next utterance.

 

[ScotGG]

Arrests differed as the Met strategy differed. The Met did about 90 preemptive arrests in Pimlico as some got close to the main march.

With Palestinian protests some arrests happened much later with the firework trouble in the evening (the Met press release on arrests had already gone out by then) while others will be retrospective (mainly for signs and banners. Some idiotic, racist and anti semitic ones seen). See the Met's subsequent appeals late last night on that.

Both sides had a fair few idiots. Fortunately very few really given heightened emotion stoked by govt. I'm the context of heightened emotions, that only a few hundred EDL types turned up is a positive.

 

[nw1]

Both sides had violent elements and included idiots. Just at different times of the day.

EDL types in the morning. Fighting police. Minority of Palestinian protesters in the evening. Throwing fireworks at police.

Good news is it really is a tiny fraction of the population on either side (left and right wings). Far less worrying than most other developed nations which have seen more violent scenes.

While I freely admit that there were, unfortunately, a small proportion of extremists on the pro-Palestine side, and the Gove jostling incident undertaken by a minority of protestors wasn't a good idea (much as I dislike him) - which right-wing protesters yesterday could not be described as "morons"?

It seems that one protest was mostly reasonable people with a small proportion of idiots, while the other was pretty much wholly idiots.

 

[Peterthegreat]

While I freely admit that there were, unfortunately, a small proportion of extremists on the pro-Palestine side, and the Gove jostling incident undertaken by a minority of protestors wasn't a good idea (much as I dislike him) - which right-wing protesters yesterday could not be described as "morons"?

It seems that one protest was mostly reasonable people with a small proportion of idiots, while the other was pretty much wholly idiots.

That's how I see it too.

 

[ScotGG]

nw1 - you are right I'm talking more broadly about the population. There's plenty who didn't agree with a march being allowed (personally I think its fine) but they didn't cause violence except the minority who turned up. What is interesting is how on either side today more widely across the media seem to think only those on the other side contained idiots and/or caused incidents. For example Channel 4 stated yesterday that the only issues were from EDL and none from the other side which was untrue. BBC stating similar today. A bit odd as no need to twist like that. They can report vast, vast majority of Palestinian protesters were peaceful without incorrect statements which erodes trust in their reporting.

The vast, vast majority of those on the Palestinian march were peaceful. Out of hundreds of thousands a very small fraction who kicked off in the evening (as there has been on prior weeks). Plenty of videos of it last night showing assaults and fireworks and things thrown though you do have to wade through some dismal twitter accounts sadly. Still, only a few hundred people at absolute max.

On the other side a few hundred EDL idiots rocked up which was a pitiful turn out given the home secretary seemed to be ramping the public up. That's a credit to the public who didn't fall for it except the usual small minority. Videos show a sizable number trying to be the big man and looking like fools.

Given its such an emotive issue its a positive there wasn't more trouble.

Arrest numbers can be twisted anyway really and not a good gauge in and of itself. Most of the EDL arrests were actually pre-emptive as the Met stated and vids show around Pimlico. Many of the violent idiots from before got away. On the flipside arrests for pro-palestinian arrests could have been far higher. The BTP at one point after issuing dispersal notices due to sit down protests at stations moved to the arrest phases but people moved on. If they'd gone straight to arrest phase and not waited 30 mins the arrest count would be higher. I'm glad they didn't as I believe in their right to protest - but it shows how tactics can alter arrest numbers.

In the evening a lot of violent people throwing fireworks also got away as did the EDL thugs.

A lot of it comes down to numbers of protestors in any given location and police tactics on what is feasible and operationally possible. Ultimately there were a few idiots across the spectrum but thankfully not as many as there could have been given Braverman's etc antics.

As for the Gove incident - it was all a bit of nothing really.

 

[takno]

The BTP at one point after issuing dispersal notices due to sit down protests at stations moved to the arrest phases but people moved on. If they'd gone straight to arrest phase and not waited 30 mins the arrest count would be higher. I'm glad they didn't as I believe in their right to protest - but it shows how tactics can alter arrest numbers.

While I agree in general with what you said, it's worth pointing out that without the dispersal notices the arrests would in all likelihood not have been legal. The people organising the sit-down protests (who are unlikely to have been the same people as the organisers of the march) will likely have known this and been ready to disperse shortly before arrest time.

 

[Busaholic]

While I freely admit that there were, unfortunately, a small proportion of extremists on the pro-Palestine side, and the Gove jostling incident undertaken by a minority of protestors wasn't a good idea (much as I dislike him) - which right-wing protesters yesterday could not be described as "morons"?

It seems that one protest was mostly reasonable people with a small proportion of idiots, while the other was pretty much wholly idiots.

I don't think many people are aware that the hard right mob could easily have turned their demonstration yesterday into a full riot. I've watched a lot of the media video clips, so YouTube's algorithms directed me to a channel I'd never heard of but appeared to back those protests. That longer video with much of it taken from the Whitehall/Bridge Street corner showed towards the end lines of mobsters beginning to advance up Whitehall with police facing them but then retreating backwards some way towards the Cenotaph. I might add that those police appeared to have been very little in the way of equipment or even uniform to defend themselves, pretty scandalous in my view. If the mob had had weapons, been directed by an obvious leader or been even greater in numbers I'd say there could have been carnage. Robinson and, doubtless, even more sinister figures will now realise this and next time (and there will be a next time, unfortunately, now the wicked Braverman has stirred things up so much with Sunak's passive connivance.)

 

[GS250]

While I freely admit that there were, unfortunately, a small proportion of extremists on the pro-Palestine side, and the Gove jostling incident undertaken by a minority of protestors wasn't a good idea (much as I dislike him) - which right-wing protesters yesterday could not be described as "morons"?

It seems that one protest was mostly reasonable people with a small proportion of idiots, while the other was pretty much wholly idiots.

That sounds a bit jaundiced?

Yes there were plenty of genuine hoolies amongst the counter protestors. However not all were 'far right'. Hardcore 'football lads' are nationalistic but I can tell you from first hand experience, some are actually part of left wing anti capitalist groups.

The vast majority of the pro Palestine group were indeed well behaved. But as I've alluded to already, there are some dark and sinister elements that quietly raise funds for Jihad and quite blatantly display anti Semitic and anti Western slogans. You do have to wonder how many terrorist activities abroad are in part funded by those involved in organising such protests?

 

[dgl]

Surely the Jihadi's/Hamas supporters are part of the far right, so it seems they should be referred to as such. Yes you'll get some militants on the far left but these aren't them.

 

[3141]

The Conservatives seem to be sleepwalking to (electoral) disaster. What can they do to win? Play devil's advocate if necessary.

Here are some not entirely frivolous suggestions.

Rishi Sunak resigns – either because he gets fed up with being put under pressure from all directions, or because the mysterious “Dr. No” tells him he has to. Who is going to replace him?

It needs to be a figure with charisma. Boris? Too tarnished by Covid. Step forward Nigel Farage. He can talk the talk all right. He’s the man who kept promoting Brexit, so he’ll appeal to all those who voted for it, including those in the “Red Wall” constituencies who voted Conservative in 2019. He promises that, if elected, he’ll make Lee Anderson the Levelling Up minister, Suella Braverman will become Metropolitan Police Commissioner, and Liz Truss will be Chancellor of the Exchequer.

At present, Labour are hoping that in Scotland there’ll be a swing to them from the SNP. But as the war in Gaza drags on, sentiment moves back to the SNP because Humza Yousaf has relatives there and both territories want independence or freedom, in different ways. So Labour don’t make the gains they hope for.

Meanwhile a scandal hits the Lib Dems. There are currently constituencies with big Conservative majorities which could swing to LD in an election, if a pact with Labour, formal or informal, can persuade the anti-Conservative vote to support just one candidate. Because of this scandal, potential Conservative swingers won’t switch to the Lib Dems, but they won’t go so far as to vote Labour. They might have voted Reform, but with Farage as Conservative leader they see no need to do that. So the Conservatives hang on to seats they were afraid they might lose.

It looks (in this scenario) as if Donald Trump is likely to become US President again. Farage says he’s lining up Boris Johnson to be the UK Ambassador to the US. Trump says he will fast-track a big US – UK trade deal. What he and Farage don’t say is that American pharmaceutical and medical companies will get a large slice of the NHS, but that’s how Farage and Truss expect to be able to make big tax cuts.

I think I’d better leave this fantasy world before I get trapped in it. Already I can see the prospect of CAF offering to finance the complete replacement of rolling stock on the Bakerloo and Central Lines [see the thread CAF donations to the Conservative Party]. All it needs is for Nadine Dorries to be appointed Lord Chancellor, and the Conservatives have it made.

 

[jon0844]

Given this is a railway forum, this must have been quite scary:

https://x.com/QueerhanKhan/status/1723469059528835560?s=20

(Link to video of 'protesters' at London Waterloo station. Lots of bad language as a group are shouting abuse at other passengers)

 

[alex397]

Given this is a railway forum, this must have been quite scary:

https://x.com/QueerhanKhan/status/1723469059528835560?s=20

(Link to video of 'protesters' at London Waterloo station. Lots of bad language as a group are shouting abuse at other passengers)

This weekend has been rather shameful really. I hope this isn’t going to be a regular feature each year.
The British Transport Police have been very quick in asking for information about the above specimens, posting photos of them on their Twitter/X account. There’s various other people they want to identify from other incidents over the weekend too.

 

[JGurney]

not entirely frivolous suggestions ..... Rishi Sunak resigns . Who is going to replace him? .... Step forward Nigel Farage. .... He’s the man who kept promoting Brexit, so he’ll appeal to all those who voted for it,

But would anyone who didn't vote for Brexit vote for him? Or anyone not old enough to vote at the time? Of those that did, some have since died, and he won't really appeal to "all those who voted for it" that are still with us, as some have changed their minds. One of the challenges for any new Tory leader will be contriving both to appeal to remaining Brexit supporters and to gain the confidence of those who are doubtful it was a good move.

 

[yorkie]

Given this is a railway forum, this must have been quite scary:

https://x.com/QueerhanKhan/status/1723469059528835560?s=20

(Link to video of 'protesters' at London Waterloo station. Lots of bad language as a group are shouting abuse at other passengers)

Apparently these people were 'born in this country', well so what, but I'd rather they hadn't been.


(image shows 4 of the people depicted in the video, all behaving in an abusive and intimidatory manner)

 

[Busaholic]

Apparently these people were 'born in this country', well so what, but I'd rather they hadn't been.

View attachment 146446
(image shows 4 of the people depicted in the video, all behaving in an abusive and intimidatory manner)

Isn't the bottom right one Owen Jones, though I admit it's about ten years since I saw him on TV? Bottom left, try checking Jonny Bairstow's DNA.

 

[yorkie]

Isn't the bottom right one Owen Jones

Haha yes it does look like him, though politically polar opposite.

though I admit it's about ten years since I saw him on TV? Bottom left, try checking Jonny Bairstow's DNA.

They are being outed now on Twitter; last I saw two had been identified and the other two probably have been by now.

 

[GS250]

But would anyone who didn't vote for Brexit vote for him? Or anyone not old enough to vote at the time? Of those that did, some have since died, and he won't really appeal to "all those who voted for it" that are still with us, as some have changed their minds. One of the challenges for any new Tory leader will be contriving both to appeal to remaining Brexit supporters and to gain the confidence of those who are doubtful it was a good move.

Rishi is utter toast. I'm not so sure a more 'moderate' Tory would prevent a big loss at the next election either.

Farage on the other hand would probably limit the damage, If only because he still manages to convince millions they are victims of a conspiracy. Would he ever be able to lead the Tories to victory? I doubt it.

 

[nw1]

Rishi is utter toast. I'm not so sure a more 'moderate' Tory would prevent a big loss at the next election either.

Farage on the other hand would probably limit the damage, If only because he still manages to convince millions they are victims of a conspiracy. Would he ever be able to lead the Tories to victory? I doubt it.

Farage is surely more extreme than Sunak or most other Tories, and is even less likely to appeal to the centre.

On the other hand, someone like Theresa May might attract the centre, but it would make the Tories look silly if they made such a big change so close to the election.

Mordaunt, someone who's rather small-c conservative but not in an extreme way? But presumably she wants to hold fire until post-election.

So I think it'll be Sunak leading them to a big election defeat, on balance.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Nov 2023 ==

I don't think many people are aware that the hard right mob could easily have turned their demonstration yesterday into a full riot. I've watched a lot of the media video clips, so YouTube's algorithms directed me to a channel I'd never heard of but appeared to back those protests. That longer video with much of it taken from the Whitehall/Bridge Street corner showed towards the end lines of mobsters beginning to advance up Whitehall with police facing them but then retreating backwards some way towards the Cenotaph. I might add that those police appeared to have been very little in the way of equipment or even uniform to defend themselves, pretty scandalous in my view. If the mob had had weapons, been directed by an obvious leader or been even greater in numbers I'd say there could have been carnage. Robinson and, doubtless, even more sinister figures will now realise this and next time (and there will be a next time, unfortunately, now the wicked Braverman has stirred things up so much with Sunak's passive connivance.)

Talking of Braverman, she seems to be on the news banging on about the Palestinian protestors, and, according to the news I've heard (on BBC and an independent radio station) not mentioning the far right protests.

She seems to have completely lost it. I wonder if she is thinking of resigning and creating a new authoritarian-populist-right "People's Populist Party", or some such?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The Conservatives seem to be sleepwalking to (electoral) disaster. What can they do to win? Play devil's advocate if necessary.

At this stage, I don't think there's anything at all the Conservatives can do to win in 2024. The most they can hope for is that some unforeseen external event happens to change their fortunes, or that Labour manages to somehow self-destruct in a way that at least limits the electoral disaster. But realistically, I think the chance of either of those happening is close to zero.

 

[Gloster]

At this stage, I don't think there's anything at all the Conservatives can do to win in 2024. The most they can hope for is that some unforeseen external event happens to change their fortunes, or that Labour manages to somehow self-destruct in a way that at least limits the electoral disaster. But realistically, I think the chance of either of those happening is close to zero.

Never underestimate Labour’s ability to cack things up just when they look as though they are about to succeed: I don’t. They are the Devon Loch of politics.

 

[Howardh]

At this stage, I don't think there's anything at all the Conservatives can do to win in 2024. The most they can hope for is that some unforeseen external event happens to change their fortunes, or that Labour manages to somehow self-destruct in a way that at least limits the electoral disaster. But realistically, I think the chance of either of those happening is close to zero.

Perhaps the Tories best tactic is to hold a general election in the new year, they will be hammered of course, but 2029 comes sooner than 2030 for them to regain power - if we and they want it!

Also if Sunak pulled the GE trigger now it would force those against him (and for, of course) to campaign over the holiday, and he could resign and get back to his privileged lifestyle.