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April to June 2023 Passenger numbers released

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43066

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Requiring subsidy is not in of itself a problem.
The problem is when the subsidy grows out of proportion to the social benefit.

Yet we subsidise our railway less than many other comparable countries, so I’d question the suggestion that subsidy has “grown out of proportion to the societal benefit.”

A huge hole has been ripped in the projections made before coronavirus and it does look likely to be closing any time soon.

Again, at some point it’s going to be necessary to change projections. The level of subsidy provided is an arbitrary political decision and it may be necessary to accept a period of increased subsidy, and focus on growing passenger numbers (notably, for all the posturing around ticket office closures, the DfT has refused to allow meaningful reform of ticketing).

The worst of all worlds is continuing to subsidise the railway (because even the most swivel eyed politician realises you can’t shut it down), but engaging in short term pinching which makes the service unreliable and unappealing, so strangling fare growth. Especially when any savings will go straight to the treasury to fund a pre election tax cut to the Tory voter base…

The railway industry might prefer if the taxpayer simply provided a pile more money with no strings attached and no questions asked, but that is not really a reasonable expectation.

This statement is hyperbolic and completely baseless, as “a pile more money with no strings attached and no questions asked” has not been requested by “the railway industry”, as far as I’m aware!

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The railway cannot support 2019 costs with 2023 revenue.

Agreed. So why does the government seem to think it should be able to?! Costs have increased across the board in all sectors - rail is no different.

For all the faux concern about the railway industry’s costs, it’s ironic that the government has itself chosen to increase fares by less than the rate of inflation, so adding to the “problem” by suppressing revenue even further than necessary!
 
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yorksrob

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Another problem is that, even if there is 10% less travel, 10% fewer services and 10% less revenue, the losses will be greater due to fixed costs such as maintaining the tracks and stations.

Indeed, which is why they need to be attracting passengers, not driving them away (except in terms of "driving them away" somewhere on the train of course).
 

JonathanH

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DfT has refused to allow meaningful reform of ticketing
There is some reform coming to certain routes outside London on 3 December. I am not convinced the changes to fares will be universally welcomed.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Again, at some point it’s going to be necessary to change projections. The level of subsidy provided is an arbitrary political decision and it may be necessary to accept a period of increased subsidy, and focus on growing passenger numbers (notably, for all the posturing around ticket office closures, the DfT has refused to allow meaningful reform of ticketing).
They only didn't do that because of a large part of the backlash were in Tory seats and cant afford to disaffect anymore voters.
The worst of all worlds is continuing to subsidise the railway (because even the most swivel eyed politician realises you can’t shut it down), but engaging in short term pinching which makes the service unreliable and unappealing, so strangling fare growth. Especially when any savings will go straight to the treasury to fund a pre election tax cut to the Tory voter base…
Personally i see the cancelling of franchises will be seen by history as a major cause of the railways current drift as whatever your views they had the incentive to maximise revenue as well as deliver the laid down service. We are where we are but i fear Labour wont have the bandwidth to do anything different either. rather than perpetuate the current situation.
 

43066

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They only didn't do that because of a large part of the backlash were in Tory seats and cant afford to disaffect anymore voters.

Regarding ticket office closures, yes indeed. But there has also been a failure to develop (or allow TOCs to develop) alternative ticketing eg a proper three day per week type ticket that might actually have encouraged more ridership/revenue since the Covid restrictions ended.

Personally i see the cancelling of franchises will be seen by history as a major cause of the railways current drift as whatever your views they had the incentive to maximise revenue as well as deliver the laid down service. We are where we are but i fear Labour wont have the bandwidth to do anything different either. rather than perpetuate the current situation.

Completely agree. Most franchises were too short and longer ones across the board might have produced more success stories eg Chiltern. The response has been to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
 
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dk1

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Yet we subsidise our railway less than many other comparable countries, so I’d question the suggestion that subsidy has “grown out of proportion to the societal benefit.”
At last!! If you listen to this hypocritical government and their spin you’d think they were gods gift at supporting their railway network and that we should all be grateful :rolleyes:
 

JonathanH

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on LNER, you mean?
No, in the Project Oval Phase 1 area, thinking in particular of the extension of evening restrictions to paper off-peak tickets, although it isn't on all of the routes.

The point however that I was making is that various bits of fare reform are happening, where the poster commenting before me suggested it wasn't. What they probably meant is that the DfT is not allowing fares to be reduced.
 
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WatcherZero

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Looking ahead to Autumn I am expecting the passenger recovery to be heavily slowed even possibly going into reverse by all the bad weather.
 

yorksrob

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At last!! If you listen to this hypocritical government and their spin you’d think they were gods gift at supporting their railway network and that we should all be grateful :rolleyes:

Oh, but don't forget, they ran the trains empty for a few months when no one was actually allowed to travel, so we have to doff our caps and tug our forelocks to them forever more in servile gratitude :lol:
 

dk1

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Oh, but don't forget, they ran the trains empty for a few months when no one was actually allowed to travel, so we have to doff our caps and tug our forelocks to them forever more in servile gratitude :lol:

Exactly mate and what a load of tosh that was. They chose to do it yet anyone who worked throughout to keep the farce going at their request is expected to thankful they have a job still. You couldn’t make it up.
 

Krokodil

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No, in the Project Oval Phase 1 area, thinking in particular of the extension of evening restrictions to paper off-peak tickets, although it isn't on all of the routes.
Oh great, more complexity.

Jim Hacker once said:
The three articles of Civil Service faith: it takes longer to do things quickly, it's more expensive to do them cheaply and it's more democratic to do them in secret.

To which I wish to add "it's more complicated to simplify things"
 

yorksrob

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Exactly mate and what a load of tosh that was. They chose to do it yet anyone who worked throughout to keep the farce going at their request is expected to thankful they have a job still. You couldn’t make it up.

Indeed. It's pathetic. We won't fall for it.
 

jayah

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Agreed. So why does the government seem to think it should be able to?! Costs have increased across the board in all sectors - rail is no different.

For all the faux concern about the railway industry’s costs, it’s ironic that the government has itself chosen to increase fares by less than the rate of inflation, so adding to the “problem” by suppressing revenue even further than necessary!
The government is already running a very large deficit and cannot raise taxes on the productive economy to plug holes in the rail budget without making the economy even worse. Raising rail fares only adds to inflation and because it is not a captive market, this would not actually do very much for the overall shortfall.

DB Cargo, which is run more like a real business even if it is just owned by another state, realised this means cutting your cloth.
 

al78

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Looking ahead to Autumn I am expecting the passenger recovery to be heavily slowed even possibly going into reverse by all the bad weather.
I wouldn't be surprised if passenger recovery has been slowed by the continual periodic industrial action hammering the reliability. Last year when commuting twice a week around 80% of my journeys had some form of nuisance delay (5-15 mins) or enough for a delay repay.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I'm no expert in this sort of thing, can someone explain how, if journeys are down 11%, revenue is down 22%?
I may be missing something here, but, surly revenue should be down by roughly the same percent as journeys, rather than double?
People in general are paying less for their rail travel.
Commuter and business travel is well down, and these groups paid premium rates for peak travel.
Growth recently has been skewed towards off-peak and leisure travel, at lower fares (Advances etc).

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Exactly mate and what a load of tosh that was. They chose to do it yet anyone who worked throughout to keep the farce going at their request is expected to thankful they have a job still. You couldn’t make it up.
Well the alternative was furlough as happened to the airlines and other private industries, with services reduced to a fraction of normal.
Probably something like the Minimum Service Level proposals.
 
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Krokodil

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I wouldn't be surprised if passenger recovery has been slowed by the continual periodic industrial action hammering the reliability. Last year when commuting twice a week around 80% of my journeys had some form of nuisance delay (5-15 mins) or enough for a delay repay.
Well it wouldn't have been industrial action causing those. Strikes and overtime bans cause cancellations, not delays.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I'm no expert in this sort of thing, can someone explain how, if journeys are down 11%, revenue is down 22%?

I may be missing something here, but, surly revenue should be down by roughly the same percent as journeys, rather than double?
As well as changes in travel patterns (discussed by other posters) it's also important to note that the government has restricted the annual rise in regulated fares to less than inflation. Therefore all fares have been cut in real terms.
 

dk1

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Well the alternative was furlough as happened to the airlines and other private industries, with services reduced to a fraction of normal.
Probably something like the Minimum Service Level proposals.

Not me personally but many of my colleagues would’ve jumped at the chance. I was just pleased to carry on working as normal.

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Hopefully as and when the economy recovers rail revenue will too as history tells us it has done in the past.
 
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gazzaa2

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How much of the decrease in travel per 2019 is down to a worsened economic environment rather than COVID? Mondays and Fridays definitely seem to be getting busier for commuting in London

Or frequently cancelled/short-formed trains/endless strikes/engineering works on the weekends they actually do run/unreliable service.
 

Bantamzen

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Not me personally but many of my colleagues would’ve jumped at the chance. I was just pleased to carry on working as normal.

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Hopefully as and when the economy recovers rail revenue will too as history tells us it has done in the past.
It never ceased to amaze me just how many members here in the industry sounded like they wanted a piece of furlough too. I can't honestly believe anyone would want a 20% pay cut with no guarantee that they'd have a job to go back to afterwards. I think staying working near empty trains was a far better position to have been in, especially with this government!
 

Mcr Warrior

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I think staying working near empty trains was a far better position to have been in, especially with this government!
Some might say that carting fresh air around for half the day was always likely to be easier than having to deal with pesky fare-paying passengers.
 

DelW

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I'm no expert in this sort of thing, can someone explain how, if journeys are down 11%, revenue is down 22%?

I may be missing something here, but, surly revenue should be down by roughly the same percent as journeys, rather than double?
In addition to the reasons suggested in various posts above, I haven't seen a mention of the effects of split ticketing for longer journeys. What would have been a single ticket throughout now becomes two or three tickets, which the statistics presumably count as two or three journeys. The result is higher numbers but lower total revenue (and much lower per-ticket revenue).

Split tickets have always been available, but it was difficult for passengers to find out about them, unless they encountered a friendly ticket clerk with the knowledge, time, and willingness to search them out. Now they are available to anyone via multiple websites, and they are much more widely known and used by ordinary passengers. Of course they may also help numbers by making train travel more affordable relative to alternative modes.
 

dk1

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It never ceased to amaze me just how many members here in the industry sounded like they wanted a piece of furlough too. I can't honestly believe anyone would want a 20% pay cut with no guarantee that they'd have a job to go back to afterwards. I think staying working near empty trains was a far better position to have been in, especially with this government!

Me too mate. Life just continued in a somewhat normal way for us in the industry as it doesn’t matter to me if there is one or one thousand passengers behind me.

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Couldn’t bear to be sitting at home at that time with so much uncertainty.
 

yorkie

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I'm no expert in this sort of thing, can someone explain how, if journeys are down 11%, revenue is down 22%?
More leisure travellers, who are on cheap tickets (e.g. Super Off Peak Day Returns), many of them for shorter journeys.

But fewer business travellers, who were on costly tickets (e.g. Anytimes or Advances at the higher tiers), often making longer distance journeys.

Also less commuting, but not evenly; the sort of commutes that are mostly down are the more expensive longer commutes on the likes of GTR etc, rather than the short hops that typically take place on services such as London Overground, Northern etc.
 

yorksrob

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Looking ahead to Autumn I am expecting the passenger recovery to be heavily slowed even possibly going into reverse by all the bad weather.

My commute has seemed busier this autumn - fewer people on holiday. Leisure travel may be a bit down, given the weather.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It never ceased to amaze me just how many members here in the industry sounded like they wanted a piece of furlough too. I can't honestly believe anyone would want a 20% pay cut with no guarantee that they'd have a job to go back to afterwards. I think staying working near empty trains was a far better position to have been in, especially with this government!

In the long run, the funding paid to keep trains running around during lockdown seems to have been used as an excuse to run the railway down ever since, so it seems to have been at best a double edged sword (speaking as a passenger of course).
 

josh-j

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The industry is moribund to the point that electrification of Transpennine is going to take long enough to render it borderline irrelevant for decarbonisation, let alone any meaningful upgrades to increase capacity elsewhere!
There are certainly problems in the industry, which is why I'd like those problems to be fixed rather than just accepted as the way things are and used to justify continued decline!

Electric cars are part of the decarbonisation picture but are far from everything, for a start they have other environmental problems beyond the tailpipe problem they solve. I suspect you'd do a lot better environmentally with a massive investment in buses rather than electric cars, not that this is an either or situation... But if everyone is going to have to drive city to city then you'll end up with a nightmare traffic and parking situation that will end up ripping the heart out of cities to make space for more cars - the American model.

So yes I do somewhat agree regarding the fundamental problems in the industry but they are the result of deliberate fragmentation through flawed public policy, and can be fixed. The problems aren't a reason not to fund rail projects, they're an impediment placed in the way of improvement by politicians who'd anyway rather everybody drove for largely ideological reasons rather than for transport efficiency, so have no incentive to sort out the mess.

For a start, if there was a long term strategy in place things like electrification and other large projects would be able to be done much more efficiently. How much time and money did we just lose by starting, half building and then cancelling HS2? With an excuse over cost just as you're arguing here, but which is actually mostly down to inflation rather than real terms cost increase, and also continued changes to the plan rather than following a proper strategy leading to more and more money being spent on redesigns for no reason.

It'd be a poor show if we decide we just can't do infrastructure any more in this country and that all we can do to decarbonise is get electric cars and let public transport rot. None of this is inherent to the railway industry, and none of it is beyond us to solve.
 
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ScotGG

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The entire DfT and Treasury strategy appears to be to make rail as off putting as possible.

Compare with Transport for London; revenue there and ridership seems far above many of the TOC in inner London. That's with strikes and also away from the Elizabeth line. London Overground for example is going great guns.

Cutting, cutting cutting often costs more than it saves in certain areas with high fixed costs like rail. DfT and Treasury seem too short termist/stupid to realise.

With London TOCs like SWR, Southern and SE having seen services axed in inner London, TfL have maintained service levels generally and reaped higher ridership and revenue now back above 2019 levels. Yes after inflation its not as strong as it would have been but that crucially still seems to be growing too.
 

HSTEd

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There are certainly problems in the industry, which is why I'd like those problems to be fixed rather than just accepted as the way things are and used to justify continued decline!
This decline has been 30 years in the making at this point, I have begun to come to the conclusion that it is hubristic to believe it can be stopped, at least without decades of political capital.
Electric cars are part of the decarbonisation picture but are far from everything, for a start they have other environmental problems beyond the tailpipe problem they solve. I suspect you'd do a lot better environmentally with a massive investment in buses rather than electric cars, not that this is an either or situation... But if everyone is going to have to drive city to city then you'll end up with a nightmare traffic and parking situation that will end up ripping the heart out of cities to make space for more cars - the American model.
Buses might do better environmentally, assuming the bus companies can find anyone to actually drive the buses. The reality is Britain can't even recruit enough bus drivers to operate its current, comparatively tiny, bus fleet reliably.
Even if pay rose into the stratosphere, I'm highly skeptical that you'd be able to recruit enough bus drivers for a hugely expanded bus system without resorting to conscription. Bus driving is hardly the most attractive of careers at the end of the day.

And a bus without a driver is simply a paperweight.

So yes I do somewhat agree regarding the fundamental problems in the industry but they are the result of deliberate fragmentation through flawed public policy, and can be fixed. The problems aren't a reason not to fund rail projects, they're an impediment placed in the way of improvement by politicians who'd anyway rather everybody drove for largely ideological reasons rather than for transport efficiency, so have no incentive to sort out the mess.
Support for the current industry model is found even in political parties that do not traditionally hate public transport.
There is no serious political party that currently campaigns for the end of this model, and in order to end it you would have to fight all the vested interests in the railway industry, simultaneously.

Fixing it would require a decade long fight with virtually everyone in and around the industry before any serious work could start. Ultimately, decarbonisation simply doesn't have that long. And that's assuming a government is willing to spend the political capital in vast quantities to make it happen, and the reality is they are not.

For a start, if there was a long term strategy in place things like electrification and other large projects would be able to be done much more efficiently. How much time and money did we just lose by starting, half building and then cancelling HS2?
Network Rail and the wider industry has been given permission for several long term plans in its existance, the problem is they are fundamentally unable to deliver on what they promise.
They've been given billions and told to get to worse on the Great Western and elsewhere, and have failed miserably.
You can't blame the politicians for the High Output Plant System debacle, although I imagine many would try.

With an excuse over cost just as you're arguing here, but which is actually mostly down to inflation rather than real terms cost increase, and also continued changes to the plan rather than following a proper strategy leading to more and more money being spent on redesigns for no reason.
Primarily the result of comically inaccurate pricing to start with, but this is very much off topic.

It'd be a poor show if we decide we just can't do infrastructure any more in this country and that all we can do to decarbonise is get electric cars and let public transport rot. None of this is inherent to the railway industry, and none of it is beyond us to solve.
Even if it can be solved, and I am no longer sure it can be, it would take a decade or two before the railway industry is in any way suitable for large scale expansion in capacity.
By then, the carbon budgets will be gone or we will already have achieved a large measure of decarbonisation. It will already be history.

Pure electric/plug-in hybrid cars are already 20+% of vehicle sales.
In a decade motor fuel sales will have started a precipitous and terminal decline.

I'd be happy to debate this all more, but this is wandering rather far off topic!
 
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