Could LNER ordering CAF units mean that Northern will?

[YorkRailFan]

Seeing as LNER ordered 10 new CAF units on 9/11/23 and Northern is looking to order around 450 trains to replace their Sprinters (among other stock), it raises the question: Will Northern now select CAF to provide the 450 trains? Note that they will be different from the current 195s/331s as Northern wants battery power and level boarding.

 

[Killingworth]

Seeing as LNER ordered 10 new CAF units on 9/11/23 and Northern is looking to order around 450 trains to replace their Sprinters (among other stock), it raises the question: Will Northern now select CAF to provide the 450 trains? Note that they will be different from the current 195s/331s as Northern wants battery power and level boarding.

An interesting point is which manufacturer/s can build 450 trains to specification at an acceptable price in the time required in Britain. That's alongside stop-start orders from other operators.

 

[skyhigh]

it raises the question: Will Northern now select CAF to provide the 450 trains?

It's a question nobody can answer (including Northern) as the ITTs have only just gone out so they won't have been offered anything to choose from yet.

 

[RailWonderer]

An interesting point is which manufacturer/s can build 450 trains to specification at an acceptable price in the time required in Britain. That's alongside stop-start orders from other operators.

I think Derby for me. An order that large will need to save some UK jobs.
The other UK factories: CAF is small and will have small work given to keep them open, Hitachi has enough IETs to build and maintain, and will probably get small follow on orders, and Goole with the tube orders will likely get some small work as well. Derby will need it most and the HS2 order is delayed and smaller than originally intended. I'd put good money on a bi-mode Aventra for Northern if William Hill took bets on it.

 

[YorkRailFan]

I think Derby for me. An order that large will need to save some UK jobs.
The other UK factories: CAF is small and will have small work given to keep them open, Hitachi has enough IETs to build and maintain, and will probably get small follow on orders, and Goole with the tube orders will likely get some small work as well. Derby will need it most and the HS2 order is delayed and smaller than originally intended. I'd put good money on a bi-mode Aventra for Northern if William Hill took bets on it.

Aren't the HS2 trains being assembled elsewhere and the bogies at Crewe?

 

[aem7ac]

Don't wanna make this non-civil but there seems to be a history of major donations to the Tories from CAF (as far as me, an American, understands it from the screenshots I have been provided).
I'm wondering if that held any sway as LNER is a DfT OLR, and they just announced that CAF order yesterday.
Other threads on Northern's 450-unit tender have raised an interesting theory: this may be just a wider DfT tender for a unified Sprinter replacement program, and for simplicity it's done through Northern as a DfT OLR.
Maybe this means we see a unified Sprinter replacement fleet in a program, awarded to CAF, like that of the IEP to replace the HSTs and 225s? A large fleet across the UK network of tri-mode Civities based off the 195/331 family?

 

[MotCO]

Don't wanna make this non-civil but there seems to be a history of major donations to the Tories from CAF (as far as me, an American, understands it from the screenshots I have been provided).

You may want to provide a source for this statement.

 

[aem7ac]

You may want to provide a source for this statement.

Search - The Electoral Commission

 

[Bletchleyite]

You may want to provide a source for this statement.

Four donations of £150K total are evidenced here:

Search - The Electoral Commission

(not sensibly possible to quote as it's a data table)

 

[Neptune]

Seeing as LNER ordered 10 new CAF units on 9/11/23 and Northern is looking to order around 450 trains to replace their Sprinters (among other stock), it raises the question: Will Northern now select CAF to provide the 450 trains?

Simple answer. No. Rolling stock acquisition isn’t as simplistic as that.

Northern will select the bidder that gets closest to what has been asked for.

 

[Energy]

Northern will select the bidder that gets closest to what has been asked for.

For those not aware - marking bids based on criteria not in the tender would be considered unfair to the other bidders and they can sue.

It would be a bit stupid to do anyway, as an organisation Northern will want trains (and bids for those trains) that meet their needs the best, so it would be really strange to not tell bidders how they will mark them.

Seeing as LNER ordered 10 new CAF units on 9/11/23 and Northern is looking to order around 450 trains to replace their Sprinters (among other stock), it raises the question: Will Northern now select CAF to provide the 450 trains? Note that they will be different from the current 195s/331s as Northern wants battery power and level boarding.

No, these are independent tenders and will have different technical requirements.

 

[YorkRailFan]

For those not aware - marking bids based on criteria not in the tender would be considered unfair to the other bidders and they can sue.

It would be a bit stupid to do anyway, as an organisation Northern will want trains (and bids for those trains) that meet their needs the best, so it would be really strange to not tell bidders how they will mark them.

No, these are independent tenders and will have different technical requirements.

I never said that they would go for more 195s/331s.

 

[Energy]

I never said that they would go for more 195s/331s.

I didn't either, Northern want battery/bimode and level boarding which the 331s and 195s cannot offer.

 

[YorkRailFan]

I didn't either, Northern want battery/bimode and level boarding which the 331s and 195s cannot offer.

I am fully aware, CAF will likely design a model to enter into the competition.

 

[stan claire]

If Northern did end up eventually ordering with CAF and a full fleet of units based on the 195/331s were built, they could remove the need of level boarding by raising platform heights (at stations solely served by Northern) to be level with the CAF stock.
It’s a silly and nonsensical idea, but it could work if it’s an entirely 195/331 design-based fleet
It would make sense to order from CAF considering they have done before and driver training will be far less hassle as they’d have existing units with probably the same software. If they did order from CAF then I’d hope the new orders have improved design choices inspired by the other 19x units, such as getting rid of the ironing board seats and better information on the PIS screens rather than ads for Tesco and Skin and Me moisturiser.

 

[RobShipway]

I also see Stadler putting in a bid, since they are the only manufacturer so far that has come close to level boarding. It also has to be noted that not all platforms within the stations that Northern serves are at the same height, so I suspect that Network Rail will need to be doing a lot of work on the platforms that Northern serves to make sure where possible that the platforms are of the same height.

 

[YorkRailFan]

If Northern did end up eventually ordering with CAF and a full fleet of units based on the 195/331s were built, they could remove the need of level boarding by raising platform heights (at stations solely served by Northern) to be level with the CAF stock.
It’s a silly and nonsensical idea, but it could work if it’s an entirely 195/331 design-based fleet
It would make sense to order from CAF considering they have done before and driver training will be far less hassle as they’d have existing units with probably the same software. If they did order from CAF then I’d hope the new orders have improved design choices inspired by the other 19x units, such as getting rid of the ironing board seats and better information on the PIS screens rather than ads for Tesco and Skin and Me moisturiser.

But remember, Northern also wants the units to have battery power so that is another hurdle to add to the 195/331s.

 

[skyhigh]

But remember, Northern also wants the units to have battery power so that is another hurdle to add to the 195/331s.

There is next to no chance there will ever be a 195 with engines, traction battery and a panto. There is simply no space underneath - which is why the proposed hybrid 195s were simply a mild hybrid with batteries that stored regen energy. There is more space under a 331 but you'd only be able to fit at most 1 engine under a 3 car or 2 under a 4 car so it would be slow unless some magic high power small engines could be found.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is next to no chance there will ever be a 195 with engines, traction battery and a panto. There is simply no space underneath - which is why the proposed hybrid 195s were simply a mild hybrid with batteries that stored regen energy. There is more space under a 331 but you'd only be able to fit at most 1 engine under a 3 car or 2 under a 4 car so it would be slow unless some magic high power small engines could be found.

With a decent sized battery to aid acceleration a 750hp engine (as per e.g. Voyagers) would be fine for a three car unit. But single engines aren't great for reliability, so you'd probably want to go with two smaller ones. But either way, yes it can be done, even if it means moving some of the gubbins above the floor to make space.

You'd not do it by adding it onto a 195 though, it'd have more in common with a 331.

It certainly won't be a 2 car unit though, there are no 2 car UK OHLE EMUs nor are there likely to be any, the conventional arrangement is pantograph and transformer on the middle car and other gubbins on the driving cars, though admittedly on some older EMUs these are quite sparse with equipment, which was the whole basis of being able to fit engines under a 769.

 

[YorkRailFan]

There is next to no chance there will ever be a 195 with engines, traction battery and a panto. There is simply no space underneath - which is why the proposed hybrid 195s were simply a mild hybrid with batteries that stored regen energy. There is more space under a 331 but you'd only be able to fit at most 1 engine under a 3 car or 2 under a 4 car so it would be slow unless some magic high power small engines could be found.

Of course not, I was just pointing that out.

 

[AM9]

With a decent sized battery to aid acceleration a 750hp engine (as per e.g. Voyagers) would be fine for a three car unit. But single engines aren't great for reliability, so you'd probably want to go with two smaller ones. But either way, yes it can be done, even if it means moving some of the gubbins above the floor to make space.

You'd not do it by adding it onto a 195 though, it'd have more in common with a 331.

It certainly won't be a 2 car unit though, there are no 2 car UK OHLE EMUs nor are there likely to be any, the conventional arrangement is pantograph and transformer on the middle car and other gubbins on the driving cars, though admittedly on some older EMUs these are quite sparse with equipment, which was the whole basis of being able to fit engines under a 769.

It's wierd that many posters here, so enamoured with the class 195s suggest that they should form the basis of a new hybrid multiple unit. The 195s (as well as 196s and 197s) are dead end designs with no place in any programme that recognises the need for carbon reduction/elimination.* The 331s have an electric traction system - only needing an independent on-board electricity supply to replace the OLE source to make them true hybrids. Thus batteries and/or diesel gensets will do the job were they physically accommodated witing the three or four car structures.
Given the ultimate aim of powering every significant route from OLE, it would be foolish starting any design with any MU car sets that didn't have a pantograph well, space for a high voltage transformer and at least half of the axles driven by electric motors.

* Things would be so different had the decision been taken to design the 195s as diesel-electric MUs (they would then have been numbered in the 23x or 24x series). Only BR SR ever got that right with the 210-207 series of Thumpers.

 

[Technologist]

Don't wanna make this non-civil but there seems to be a history of major donations to the Tories from CAF (as far as me, an American, understands it from the screenshots I have been provided).
I'm wondering if that held any sway as LNER is a DfT OLR, and they just announced that CAF order yesterday.
Other threads on Northern's 450-unit tender have raised an interesting theory: this may be just a wider DfT tender for a unified Sprinter replacement program, and for simplicity it's done through Northern as a DfT OLR.
Maybe this means we see a unified Sprinter replacement fleet in a program, awarded to CAF, like that of the IEP to replace the HSTs and 225s? A large fleet across the UK network of tri-mode Civities based off the 195/331 family?

Just in case this becomes a case of "Eagleland Osmosis", where things outside the US are assumed to work the same as in the US.

Eagleland Osmosis - TV Tropes

A special case of Reality Is Unrealistic, Eagleland Osmosis occurs when people outside the United States consume American pop culture and start to believe that aspects of their own society work like they do in these imported films and television …

tvtropes.org

Total funding of all pollitical parties in the UK came to less than $50 million in 2022. That wouldn't win a single contested senate seat in the US. Funding for the US 2020 election came to $14 billion.

The relationship between funding of politics and favours/lobbying in the UK is a lot less clear cut than it is in the US. Not least because in the US Congress directly writes the budget whereas the executive writes it in the UK.

 

[aem7ac]

Just in case this becomes a case of "Eagleland Osmosis", where things outside the US are assumed to work the same as in the US.

Eagleland Osmosis - TV Tropes

A special case of Reality Is Unrealistic, Eagleland Osmosis occurs when people outside the United States consume American pop culture and start to believe that aspects of their own society work like they do in these imported films and television …

tvtropes.org

Total funding of all pollitical parties in the UK came to less than $50 million in 2022. That wouldn't win a single contested senate seat in the US. Funding for the US 2020 election came to $14 billion.

The relationship between funding of politics and favours/lobbying in the UK is a lot less clear cut than it is in the US. Not least because in the US Congress directly writes the budget whereas the executive writes it in the UK.

I completely understand that it's very much different. I try to avoid Eagleland Osmosis. Thank you for the reference though. That is very helpful. Maybe it is not politically motivated after all, but it is very much worth pointing out.

 

[Technologist]

I completely understand that it's very much different. I try to avoid Eagleland Osmosis. Thank you for the reference though. That is very helpful. Maybe it is not politically motivated after all, but it is very much worth pointing out.

In fairness the Eagleland Osmosis normally goes the other way as it's non US people consuming US media and assuming that things in their country work the same way.

Most British people have never been in a court and therefore assume that judges bash gavels like they do in US TV shows.

Also not saying that political corruption isn't a thing in the UK, but the US has taken a different approach. One model of corruption has two dimensions, theft or exchange and petty or grand.

Theft is self explanatory and in the US (and UK) both petty and grand theft by government officials are pretty rare by global standards.

Exchange is where you pay somebody for an illegal advantage. Petty would be something like paying a bribe to pass your driving test, grand exchange is partially dealt with in the US by making it institutionalised and legal via lobbying and political contributions.

 

[Snow1964]

I also see Stadler putting in a bid, since they are the only manufacturer so far that has come close to level boarding. It also has to be noted that not all platforms within the stations that Northern serves are at the same height, so I suspect that Network Rail will need to be doing a lot of work on the platforms that Northern serves to make sure where possible that the platforms are of the same height.

Siemens has low floor options too, eg the Desiro used for Austria Cityjet. They have proposed UK Desiro version called verve

https://assets.new.siemens.com/siemens/assets/api/uuid:83670034-3a02-48be-9453-e48c8097f155/desiro-ml-oebb-cityjet-en.pdf

Alstom have Coradia Stream (which seems to work straight from the factory, unlike Aventra) that also comes with low floor section. Presumably the version for Ireland means could be built to UK size.

Coradia Stream regional trains: High-performing operational efficiency

Coradia Stream™ regional trains are a state-of-the-art, low-floor, high-performance electric multiple unit (EMU). The train offers a modular design allowing operators to choose configurations and interiors that work best for their market and mission. Over 650 single-deck Coradia Stream regional...

www.alstom.com

 

[43096]

Alstom have Coradia Stream (which seems to work straight from the factory, unlike Aventra)

You are presumably unaware that the production for Netherlands hasn’t exactly been smooth?

 

[Mamorin]

Not sure Northern will want Coradia Streams given the only Coradia's built for the UK are not known for great reliability or not catching fire.

I know its been 20 years since the 175s and 180s were built, but the Coradia branding may still be tainted by those 2 trains.

The Desiro branded as Cityjet is interesting, issue is capacity is lower than on both 323s and 333s, but I'm sure that could be fixed for proposed verve version for the UK that you mentioned.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Alstom have Coradia Stream (which seems to work straight from the factory, unlike Aventra) that also comes with low floor section. Presumably the version for Ireland means could be built to UK size.

Coradia Stream regional trains: High-performing operational efficiency

Coradia Stream™ regional trains are a state-of-the-art, low-floor, high-performance electric multiple unit (EMU). The train offers a modular design allowing operators to choose configurations and interiors that work best for their market and mission. Over 650 single-deck Coradia Stream regional...

www.alstom.com

Those don't look like bi-modes to me, might be annoying to get diesel generators to work with it.

 

[Mamorin]

The Coradia Stream is an EMU according to Alstom's website, so they are not bi-modes.

If Alstom win the Northern tender then any EMUs they order could be Coradia Streams but then have a second desgin to be a bi-mode and tri-mode train.