1F39 Avanti Euston - Liverpool Lime St. - Why set-down only after Milton Keynes

[Grumpy Git]

The Avanti 1F39 service would be an ideal 'last train home' when attempting to connect at Crewe for getting back to Liverpool as it leaves at 00:09, (actual last train for Liverpool is the 1F74 WMT, which departs Crewe at 22:32).

Why is it set-down only after MKC?

Anyone needing to get from Crewe to Manchester can depart as late as 00:44, so why not to Liverpool when there is a train running there?

 

[Class 170101]

The Avanti 1F39 service would be an ideal 'last train home' when attempting to connect at Crewe for getting back to Liverpool as it leaves at 00:09, (actual last train for Liverpool is the 1F74 WMT, which departs Crewe at 22:32).

Why is it set-down only after MKC?

Anyone needing to get from Crewe to Manchester can depart as late as 00:44, so why not to Liverpool when there is a train running there?

I guess its because it can be diverted via alternative routes and omit some stations, run later etc.

 

[The Planner]

Also reduces the potential of it becoming a vomit comet.

 

[Tetchytyke]

So it can divert via different routes or run early if required. The very late LNER services are set down only north of York for the same reason.

This morning it arrived at Crewe 8 minutes early, and because it is set down only it didn’t need need to wait time.

The 0044 is a Northern service only calling at the airport.

 

[frodshamfella]

The Avanti 1F39 service would be an ideal 'last train home' when attempting to connect at Crewe for getting back to Liverpool as it leaves at 00:09, (actual last train for Liverpool is the 1F74 WMT, which departs Crewe at 22:32).

Why is it set-down only after MKC?

Anyone needing to get from Crewe to Manchester can depart as late as 00:44, so why not to Liverpool when there is a train running there?

It would be handy for very late passengers for sure.

 

[357]

The very late LNER services are set down only north of York for the same reason.

I have been on a train that left KGX around 22:30 that was set down only all the way to Leeds! Got in over half an hour early

 

[Kite159]

Also means if it gets cancelled (or part cancelled) they only need to run replacement buses to the stations it calls at if there are passengers on board

 

[_toommm_]

I have been on a train that left KGX around 22:30 that was set down only all the way to Leeds! Got in over half an hour early

That’s the 23:33. Great train as it gets in half an hour early so connects well with the last bus from Leeds at 02:30 towards Headingley.

 

[357]

That’s the 23:33. Great train as it gets in half an hour early so connects well with the last bus from Leeds at 02:30 towards Headingley.

There is one before that too! Or at least there was on this day. Taken from my Rail Miles:

London Kings Cross (p1) to
Leeds (p12)​

Service Information​

Departed on 13 August 2023 at 22:34, arrived on 14 August 2023 at 00:40.
Route: Direct
Service was operated by 800111.

 

[greatkingrat]

In practice, I doubt there would be an issue if you did board that train at Crewe, although you would need to allow plenty of time due to possible early running.

 

[QJ]

Set down stops can be omitted.

In theory should you get on at a set down only stop you could be charged the fare from the last pick up stop. I have been challenged once or twice after getting on at a set down only stop. An all line rover got me out of those situations.

I believe the early arrival at Leeds resulted from those trains being diverted away from it’s booked route via Knottingley (when there is no engineering work taking place). At least that was the reason when I’ve travelled on them.

 

[greyman42]

In theory should you get on at a set down only stop you could be charged the fare from the last pick up stop.

I don't know about other operators, but LNER seem to be pretty relaxed about it.

 

[357]

I believe the early arrival at Leeds resulted from those trains being diverted away from it’s booked route via Knottingley (when there is no engineering work taking place). At least that was the reason when I’ve travelled on them

I'm not sure where we were supposed to be routed but in my case we got gradually earlier and earlier all the way

 

[greyman42]

I'm not sure where we were supposed to be routed but in my case we got gradually earlier and earlier all the way

The 2300 Kings Cross to York is set down only for every stop. It often arrives early in York due to allowances for engineering that are not needed. It does not divert.

 

[AndrewE]

Set down stops can be omitted.

Really? I hope only after a 100% ticket check before boarding, or after a thorough on-board check after the last non-"S" stop.

 

[dk1]

Our last Liverpool St to Norwich trains were set down only back in the day. That’s the stuff of dreams to me and most of us now. Must’ve been wonderful days.

 

[185]

There was an instance last month where Avanti had a number three services diverted off one line, and they refused to stop at alternatives on the diversion line.

Believe the ORR is now looking at the matter, with a view to reminding Avanti's directors that their focus should not only be on passengers from London, but in the communities they serve on the way, who are often reliant on Avanti as the sole operator at certain times of day. Running 90% empty, 600 seat trains, at 5mph through two major stations whilst 60-70 passengers are being pushed into 12-seater transit minibuses hardly does any good for the joined-up-railway's image.

 

[The Planner]

There was an instance last month where Avanti had a number three services diverted off one line, and they refused to stop at alternatives on the diversion line.

Believe the ORR is now looking at the matter, with a view to reminding Avanti's directors that their focus should not only be on passengers from London, but in the communities they serve on the way, who are often reliant on Avanti as the sole operator at certain times of day. Running 90% empty, 600 seat trains, at 5mph through two major stations whilst 60-70 passengers are being pushed into 12-seater transit minibuses hardly does any good for the joined-up-railway's image.

What stations where they going through at 5mph?

 

[185143]

What stations where they going through at 5mph?

Earlestown possibly? Though dispatching a Pendo from there would be an absolute nightmare.

 

[The Planner]

Earlestown possibly? Though dispatching a Pendo from there would be an absolute nightmare.

Why would Avanti stop at Earlestown? what was the diversion, just round the houses via Newton le Willows and back on at Golborne?

 

[185143]

Why would Avanti stop at Earlestown? what was the diversion, just round the houses via Newton le Willows and back on at Golborne?

They have and do run that way when Runcorn is shut and they divert via Warrington. That was the only available route when RMT signallers were out on strike.

I'm not seriously suggesting they would stop at Earlestown, merely it was the first diversion that sprung to mind with a very low linespeed. Middlewich is another, but that doesn't miss any stations out. That one's so slow the replacement bus between Crewe and Chester is quicker!

 

[185]

Cant see the post 18 reply due to ignore, but it certainly wasn't Earlestown ...twas a major one as was stated in my post. Once complete I may post the outcome on here in a few days but there's a good reason why I won't yet.

Needless to say, it's happened before and there was the same process of complaint, then a report to the grown ups.... then an agreement to stop doing it, 12 months passes and now we're back to square one again, like some temporal loop in Star Trek where they deny knowing anything about the previous shenanigans.

 

[david l]

Wouldn't like to have been travelling last night from Euston to Warrington or Wigan. 21.10 (last train) was an hour down, stopped at usual stops as far as Crewe, but then seems to have omitted to stop at Warrington BQ and Wigan NW but still passing through there en route to Preston. Train before is 20.33 ex-Euston , once again (has been many times of late) cancelled so last train would have been 19.30 Eus-GLC.......

 

[Dr Hoo]

Are those stops ‘set down only’ or was it a case of needing to get to Preston before a block there or crew out of hours?

 

[185143]

Are those stops ‘set down only’ or was it a case of needing to get to Preston before a block there or crew out of hours?

Usually the fact that WBQ+WGN close after the passage of the last train, and presumably station staff were (with no criticism of them!) Unwilling to do the necessary overtime to allow the train to call. Preston and Crewe will be staffed all night due to the Sleeper calling.

 

[david l]

Are those stops ‘set down only’ or was it a case of needing to get to Preston before a block there or crew out of hours?

No, full stops, no block.
Last Liverpool-Blackpool was also cancelled (due WNW 00.04) although as per usual ran ECS so presume no conductor. Perhaps the staff had already gone home...........

 

[Edsmith]

In practice, I doubt there would be an issue if you did board that train at Crewe, although you would need to allow plenty of time due to possible early running.

No there shouldn't be any problem although you obviously run the risk of the train not turning up if it's been diverted etc.