RailSail to France?

[leytongabriel]

We are seeing a lot of ads for RailSail to Holland (now sadly truncated of course) but why not a RailSail ticket to France via Newhaven?
It wouldn't hurt either the Newhaven branch or ferry to have a few more passengers and it's the only easy train-boat interchange left to France.
At present you have to get a peak hour Southern single to get the morning ferry which is more expensive than the ferry ticket and so makes it unviable.
Surely there are enough seats counterflow down to Lewes in the morning to allow this?

 

[AlbertBeale]

We are seeing a lot of ads for RailSail to Holland (now sadly truncated of course) but why not a RailSail ticket to France via Newhaven?
It wouldn't hurt either the Newhaven branch or ferry to have a few more passengers and it's the only easy train-boat interchange left to France.
At present you have to get a peak hour Southern single to get the morning ferry which is more expensive than the ferry ticket and so makes it unviable.
Surely there are enough seats counterflow down to Lewes in the morning to allow this?

Yes - Newhaven is the only decent train-boat connection still left at a British port for connections to France; but the once excellent connection on the French side on that route disappeared years ago. As I remember, it's now a mile or more, including getting across from the other side of the port, to reach Dieppe station from the ferry terminal now. So for though journeys (as opposed to visiting Dieppe itself), it doesn't fell like a very slick connection! Though if there were a connecting bus - included in a SailRail ticket - that might be bearable.

 

[RobShipway]

We are seeing a lot of ads for RailSail to Holland (now sadly truncated of course) but why not a RailSail ticket to France via Newhaven?
It wouldn't hurt either the Newhaven branch or ferry to have a few more passengers and it's the only easy train-boat interchange left to France.
At present you have to get a peak hour Southern single to get the morning ferry which is more expensive than the ferry ticket and so makes it unviable.
Surely there are enough seats counterflow down to Lewes in the morning to allow this?

Due to where the ferry terminal has moved too in Newhaven, passengers now have to get off at Newhaven Town, as Newhaven Harbour station is not anywhere near where the passenger got moved too within the harbour. There is a bit of a walk from Newhaven Town station to the passenger terminal, so it is not direct from rail station to Ferry passenger terminal as it once was, where the Ferry Passenger terminal was previously located.

While it is more decent than many British ports between train and ferry still, as @AlbertBeale says above, where the passenger terminal is located now in Dieppe, it is nowhere near the railway due to larger ships travelling between Newhaven to Dieppe.

I think a better alternative is for coach companies to be running a coach service from London Victoria coach station to Paris using the Newhaven - Dieppe ferry service. However, timing of the ferries whether in Autumn/Winter or for that matter Spring/Summer would be an issue for the coach companies as customers would not easily be able to be doing day trips from London to Paris using this method, which is where I suspect you would get the most customers.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Due to where the ferry terminal has moved too in Newhaven, passengers now have to get off at Newhaven Town, as Newhaven Harbour station is not anywhere near where the passenger got moved too within the harbour. There is a bit of a walk from Newhaven Town station to the passenger terminal, so it is not direct from rail station to Ferry passenger terminal as it once was, where the Ferry Passenger terminal was previously located.

While it is more decent than many British ports between train and ferry still, as @AlbertBeale says above, where the passenger terminal is located now in Dieppe, it is nowhere near the railway due to larger ships travelling between Newhaven to Dieppe.

I think a better alternative is for coach companies to be running a coach service from London Victoria coach station to Paris using the Newhaven - Dieppe ferry service. However, timing of the ferries whether in Autumn/Winter or for that matter Spring/Summer would be an issue for the coach companies as customers would not easily be able to be doing day trips from London to Paris using this method, which is where I suspect you would get the most customers.

Yes - the ferries moved to the other side of the dock in Dieppe, and also they've scrapped the rail line which ran along the quayside!

A coach/boat service indeed would be no good for a day trip (any more than train/boat would) heading for Paris this way; and not even for much of a day in Dieppe! I did sometimes get the overnight ferry on this route "in olden days", so as to leave London in the evening and be in Paris the next morning (and vice versa), but the two breaks of journey, both getting on or off the boat when you wanted to be asleep, meant it wasn't a very attractive option... (Same as Dover-Ostend in those days - the overnight ticket was very cheap, and there were convenient train-boat connections in integrated facilities, but the length of the crossing and the timing of the changes, made for a very non-restful night; but I still used it quite a bit for my London-Brussels trips. I even used it for an out and back, and out again, virtual commute over a few days once.)

 

[RT4038]

Though if there were a connecting bus - included in a SailRail ticket - that might be bearable.

The cost of providing such would push the cost of the SailRail ticket through the roof and chase away most of any possible custom!

 

[stuu]

The cost of providing such would push the cost of the SailRail ticket through the roof and chase away most of any possible custom!

It's less than a mile... although if there were much demand you would think the local town bus route could be extended for one or two journeys per day

 

[RT4038]

It's less than a mile... although if there were much demand you would think the local town bus route could be extended for one or two journeys per day

I wouldn't expect there to be much demand, and I doubt the town service option would work at all - aside from the fact that some of the arrivals and departures are in the evening/small hours when any town service is unlikely to be operating (and Newhaven has little town service to speak of anyway)- would anyone really want to rely on a public bus service to actually make any connections? I would presume any town service would have other suburbs to be serving as a matter of priority, so is not going to wait around for trains or ferries running a bit late. A dedicated bus shuttle is the only practicable answer, and the cost of providing that would make any RailSea ticket uncompetitive with the main international rail link - E*. Both Newhaven and Dieppe are only served by branch line trains (because there is little business to be had), and any longer distance journeys are slow and inconvenient. The masses by and large are happy with travelling by E*, aeroplanes or in motor cars, or just don't travel at all, and are unlikely to be swayed by a through ticket for such an inconvenient route.

Apart from a few diehards, any substantial, year-round, demand is simply not there, and all this seeking of a cheaper public transport alternative to the existing services crossing the Channel is clutching at straws. The diehards can buy separate tickets, after all.

 

[lawried123]

We are seeing a lot of ads for RailSail to Holland (now sadly truncated of course) but why not a RailSail ticket to France via Newhaven?
It wouldn't hurt either the Newhaven branch or ferry to have a few more passengers and it's the only easy train-boat interchange left to France.
At present you have to get a peak hour Southern single to get the morning ferry which is more expensive than the ferry ticket and so makes it unviable.
Surely there are enough seats counterflow down to Lewes in the morning to allow this?

Does anyone remember the day trip fare from London to Calais many years ago that involved a train to Ashford then a coach which went through the Channel Tunnel to Calais. I did it several times and I think the public fare was about £30. I rather cheekily asked whether your could get privs on it and to my amazement was told you could. So day trip from London to Calais for about £7.50. Sadly, I don't think it lasted very long but it was a wonderful bargain when it did.

Lawrie

 

[30907]

I wouldn't expect there to be much demand, and I doubt the town service option would work at all - aside from the fact that some of the arrivals and departures are in the evening/small hours when any town service is unlikely to be operating (and Newhaven has little town service to speak of anyway)- would anyone really want to rely on a public bus service to actually make any connections?

I think Dieppe is under discussion - it's roughly 20min walk to the Pont Colbert across the inner port and 30min to the station. The town bus doesn't go near, but French local authorities seem to be into buses so they might be persuaded to run a shuttle for the day sailings.

As for the demand - you couldn't use it for a day trip unless you came back overnight, so short breaks to Dieppe itself and Rouen would be the main market, and I fear that's not large, even if you add a small number of Paris travellers.

But it's a nice idea if DFDS are up for it

 

[AlastairFraser]

If the only cost is a shuttle bus to meet the sailings (and you could charge £1 for non-RS passengers to cross-subsidise), then it's potentially viable.
Your target market would be Sussex and western Kent/eastern Hants residents heading for Northern France.
Gatwick can be a stressful experience, there are no remaining scheduled coaches stopping in Kent or Sussex between London and the Channel, and Eurostar aren't stopping in Kent until 2025 at least, so your only other local option is go to Dover and experience the chaos there.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think a better alternative is for coach companies to be running a coach service from London Victoria coach station to Paris using the Newhaven - Dieppe ferry service. However, timing of the ferries whether in Autumn/Winter or for that matter Spring/Summer would be an issue for the coach companies as customers would not easily be able to be doing day trips from London to Paris using this method, which is where I suspect you would get the most customers.

Why would a coach company want to do that? The total journey is around 3h longer than via the Shuttle / 2h via Dover - Calais ferry, and time is money. Also the Calais route has far more contingency available both in terms of fast road routes to the terminals either end, and number of voyages / alternatives possible in the event of a cancellation.

Theres a reason why the entire daily London - Paris coach market could fit on half a eurostar, and thts because people much prefer the eurostar!

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Newhaven to Dieppe is subsidised by the Seine-Maritime department, who also specify the local bus services in Dieppe. The occasional shuttle bus from the local fleet doesn't sound impossible to arrange to improve the attractiveness of the service, especially in summer.

Newhaven Town station to the ferry terminal is a short stroll, although you do have to dodge the vehicle lanes.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Why would a coach company want to do that? The total journey is around 3h longer than via the Shuttle / 2h via Dover - Calais ferry, and time is money. Also the Calais route has far more contingency available both in terms of fast road routes to the terminals either end, and number of voyages / alternatives possible in the event of a cancellation.

London coaches perhaps, but a Southampton - Cosham - Brighton Uni - ferry - Rouen - Paris coach would be reasonable if it was reasonably priced.
It's around 1hr45 drive from Southampton to Newhaven - add 45 mins for stops and it would still be competitive.

 

[Bald Rick]

London coaches perhaps, but a Southampton - Cosham - Brighton Uni - ferry - Rouen - Paris coach would be reasonable if it was reasonably priced.
It's around 1hr45 drive from Southampton to Newhaven - add 45 mins for stops and it would still be competitive.

I doubt there would be demand for that at a price that makes it viable, otherwise it would operate now! My reply was specifically with resoect to London - Paris though.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I doubt there would be demand for that at a price that makes it viable, otherwise it would operate now! My reply was specifically with resoect to London - Paris though.

Fair enough.

 

[RobShipway]

Why would a coach company want to do that? The total journey is around 3h longer than via the Shuttle / 2h via Dover - Calais ferry, and time is money. Also the Calais route has far more contingency available both in terms of fast road routes to the terminals either end, and number of voyages / alternatives possible in the event of a cancellation.

Theres a reason why the entire daily London - Paris coach market could fit on half a eurostar, and thts because people much prefer the eurostar!

As @AlastairFraser has said it would cut the time of travelling to France for many people not just locally in Sussex, but for those further west towards Southampton/Portsmouth area and even those travelling from Dorset.

But I also think that it would actually be a more direct service from London Victoria Coach station and actually far quicker, for those wanting to travel to Paris, than going via the Channel Tunnel on the Euro Shuttle. I think the reason why it is not there though, is the cost to the coach companies. They can a better deal with Euro Shuttle to take their passengers through the tunnel, even though the coaches would actually be travelling a longer distance with putting more fumes into the air.

 

[Bald Rick]

As @AlastairFraser has said it would cut the time of travelling to France for many people not just locally in Sussex, but for those further west towards Southampton/Portsmouth area and even those travelling from Dorset.

How would a London to Paris coach via Newhaven help people on Southampton / Portsmouth?

But I also think that it would actually be a more direct service from London Victoria Coach station and actually far quicker, for those wanting to travel to Paris, than going via the Channel Tunnel on the Euro Shuttle.

It woudlnt be quicker. As I said up thread it would be 2-3 hours longer.

 

[paul1609]

Newhaven to Dieppe is subsidised by the Seine-Maritime department, who also specify the local bus services in Dieppe. The occasional shuttle bus from the local fleet doesn't sound impossible to arrange to improve the attractiveness of the service, especially in summer.

Newhaven Town station to the ferry terminal is a short stroll, although you do have to dodge the vehicle lanes.

It's actually less than a five minute walk along a signposted pedestrian route. You have to cross a two lane public road next to the bus stops and cross over a zebra crossing to the terminal building through the corner of the car park. It's less distance than you had to walk between train and ship at Dover Western Docks!
If you are dodging traffic lanes you are lost.

 

[RT4038]

If the only cost is a shuttle bus to meet the sailings (and you could charge £1 for non-RS passengers to cross-subsidise), then it's potentially viable.
Your target market would be Sussex and western Kent/eastern Hants residents heading for Northern France.

So if the ferry company felt they could charge their non-RS passengers (presumably way in the majority) an extra £1 without any competitive disadvantage, why would they not just bank that money, improving their finances, rather than the faff and expense of catering for RailSail passengers?

 

[stadler]

Newhaven Town station to the ferry terminal building is literally a sixty second walk. I do this journey all the time and if you walk quickly it takes about sixty seconds to walk between the station and the ferry terminal building. Maybe two minutes or three minutes at the very most if you are walking very slowly. It is probably the closest railway station to ferry terminal connection in the UK. It is almost next door.

Dieppe is about a fifteen or twenty minute walk to the town centre and railway station. So still an easy and quick walk. Although i suppose not ideal if you have lots of luggage. There used to be a bus but not any more. There are still local buses that go half way which cuts your walking time in half.

I would say Newhaven to Dieppe is definitely the best remaining ferry route. Most of the other routes are practically unusable for foot passengers these days. On the Newhaven to Dieppe ferry foot passengers are accepted on all journeys at all times. In fact during covid it was the one and only route to continuously accept foot passengers while all other routes had suspended foot passenger crossings. Newhaven to Dieppe is also by far the cheapest route and has set prices for foot passengers so you pay the same whether you book months in advance or buy on the day at the port.

As for a Sail Rail ticket i highly doubt that this will ever happen. It would require cooperation between RDG and DFDS and SNCF and none of them seem interested in this sort of thing. Most of the current Sail Rail tickets are basically just legacy tickets established decades ago under BR that have just continued to exist. But i can not see new ones being crested. It would be useful if such a ticket did exist but i think we will have to just continue buying three separate tickets.

 

[AlastairFraser]

So if the ferry company felt they could charge their non-RS passengers (presumably way in the majority) an extra £1 without any competitive disadvantage, why would they not just bank that money, improving their finances, rather than the faff and expense of catering for RailSail passengers?

Because RailSail is an additional market to be exploited that might provide a decent return if marketed properly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Nov 2023 ==

As for a Sail Rail ticket i highly doubt that this will ever happen. It would require cooperation between RDG and DFDS and SNCF and none of them seem interested in this sort of thing. Most of the current Sail Rail tickets are basically just legacy tickets established decades ago under BR that have just continued to exist. But i can not see new ones being crested. It would be useful if such a ticket did exist but i think we will have to just continue buying three separate tickets

SNCF/Irish Ferries/IE have recently set up a new Rail Sail Route Cherbourg to Ireland, so the will is there from the SNCF side.
It's up to the RDG really to organise with DFDS - I won't hold my breath...

 

[leytongabriel]

It's actually less than a five minute walk along a signposted pedestrian route. You have to cross a two lane public road next to the bus stops and cross over a zebra crossing to the terminal building through the corner of the car park. It's less distance than you had to walk between train and ship at Dover Western Docks!
If you are dodging traffic lanes you are lost.

YES! It's no distance at all if you follow the signs . There used to be a little shuttle bus at Dieppe and there is a bus to Caen at Ouistreham for the Portsmouth ferry so having somethng, at least at peak times, doesn't sound unreasonble. The French authorities have done a lot of work to keep the ferry service going (unlike the county council who just say 'not our responsibility').

 

[paul1609]

Newhaven Town station to the ferry terminal building is literally a sixty second walk. I do this journey all the time and if you walk quickly it takes about sixty seconds to walk between the station and the ferry terminal building. Maybe two minutes or three minutes at the very most if you are walking very slowly. It is probably the closest railway station to ferry terminal connection in the UK. It is almost next door.

Dieppe is about a fifteen or twenty minute walk to the town centre and railway station. So still an easy and quick walk. Although i suppose not ideal if you have lots of luggage. There used to be a bus but not any more. There are still local buses that go half way which cuts your walking time in half.

I would say Newhaven to Dieppe is definitely the best remaining ferry route. Most of the other routes are practically unusable for foot passengers these days. On the Newhaven to Dieppe ferry foot passengers are accepted on all journeys at all times. In fact during covid it was the one and only route to continuously accept foot passengers while all other routes had suspended foot passenger crossings. Newhaven to Dieppe is also by far the cheapest route and has set prices for foot passengers so you pay the same whether you book months in advance or buy on the day at the port.

As for a Sail Rail ticket i highly doubt that this will ever happen. It would require cooperation between RDG and DFDS and SNCF and none of them seem interested in this sort of thing. Most of the current Sail Rail tickets are basically just legacy tickets established decades ago under BR that have just continued to exist. But i can not see new ones being crested. It would be useful if such a ticket did exist but i think we will have to just continue buying three separate tickets.

The rail traffic for foot passengers for the Newhaven to Dieppe Ferry Primarily comes to/ from the Brighton to Littlehampton Conurbation so the single rail ticket is £5 to £12. Traffic from London has always been low. The morning peak ticket from Victoria is £25, later than that there are plenty of advances from south London for £6. Problem with a cheaper ticket in the morning peak is that Newhaven is valid via Brighton. People often forget that Brighton itself has a considerable peak traffic with many services on the coastway arriving full and standing. This also applies to outgoing trains from Brighton as far as the Universities at Falmer.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Newhaven Town station to the ferry terminal building is literally a sixty second walk. I do this journey all the time and if you walk quickly it takes about sixty seconds to walk between the station and the ferry terminal building. Maybe two minutes or three minutes at the very most if you are walking very slowly. It is probably the closest railway station to ferry terminal connection in the UK. It is almost next door.

Dieppe is about a fifteen or twenty minute walk to the town centre and railway station. So still an easy and quick walk. Although i suppose not ideal if you have lots of luggage. There used to be a bus but not any more. There are still local buses that go half way which cuts your walking time in half.

I would say Newhaven to Dieppe is definitely the best remaining ferry route. Most of the other routes are practically unusable for foot passengers these days. On the Newhaven to Dieppe ferry foot passengers are accepted on all journeys at all times. In fact during covid it was the one and only route to continuously accept foot passengers while all other routes had suspended foot passenger crossings. Newhaven to Dieppe is also by far the cheapest route and has set prices for foot passengers so you pay the same whether you book months in advance or buy on the day at the port.

As for a Sail Rail ticket i highly doubt that this will ever happen. It would require cooperation between RDG and DFDS and SNCF and none of them seem interested in this sort of thing. Most of the current Sail Rail tickets are basically just legacy tickets established decades ago under BR that have just continued to exist. But i can not see new ones being crested. It would be useful if such a ticket did exist but i think we will have to just continue buying three separate tickets.

Re "It is probably the closest..." - what about Harwich? The footbridge linking the rail platforms there leads directly into the port terminal building.

 

[stuu]

But I also think that it would actually be a more direct service from London Victoria Coach station and actually far quicker, for those wanting to travel to Paris, than going via the Channel Tunnel on the Euro Shuttle.

London-Paris coaches take 9 hours today, via Dover. Going via Newhaven would mean ~2.5 hours London-Newhaven, including waiting time at the port and contingency for traffic, 4 hours on board, at least 30 minutes waiting to get off, and then a 2.5-3 hour drive to central Paris. Which is slower than the Dover route