Possible Movement in RMT Dispute.

[Train_manager]

I just want to know what the catch is? We kept being told there was no money and only way to get a raise was by giving up conditions. What has changed? The only thing I can think of is the Gov have realised they will definitely be out of power within a year and so this will essentially be funded by Labour going forward. Also strange that Aslef haven't been mentioned. Unless they are planning something hideous like fire and rehire for drivers once all other grades are safe and secure...... maybe I'm being overly pessimistic and suspicious, I certainly hope so.

I think the Tories will use it as a stick to beat ASLEF with.

Like they tried with RMT when NR settled(gave in)

 

[Ashley Hill]

Unless they are planning something hideous like fire and rehire for drivers once all other grades are safe and secure...... maybe I'm being overly pessimistic and suspicious, I certainly hope so.

I cannot really see that happening. Whilst similar happened at P&O it’s not possible to train drivers in a matter of weeks,boil in the bags or not.
Having said that,during the 1982 ASLEF strike a letter was indeed sent threatening dismissal IIRC.

 

[172007]

I cannot really see that happening. Whilst similar happened at P&O it’s not possible to train drivers in a matter of weeks,boil in the bags or not.
Having said that,during the 1982 ASLEF strike a letter was indeed sent threatening dismissal IIRC.

It's electoral suicide. If the government was even seen to support fire and rehire every company in the land would try it on. The economic turmoil would be disastrous.

 

[Bald Rick]

Like they tried with RMT when NR settled(gave in)

Gave in?

 

[anthony263]

I suspect so.

There was a lot of chatter on Twitter about the King's Speech containing fewer bills than had been expected which, along with the last minute removal by No 10 of the most controversial bill ( the homeless tents thing ) makes me think they'll go to the country somewhat earlier than they have been saying they will.

It be spring 2024 we'll see a announcement of a General election i suspect

 

[dk1]

I think the Tories will use it as a stick to beat ASLEF with.

Good luck with that. We enjoy the odd thrashing but always come out smiling

 

[Carlisle]

It be spring 2024 we'll see a announcement of a General election i suspect

The political experts have long predicted Autumn is more likely but we’ll see .

 

[Goldfish62]

I've looked through this thread and couldn't find the actual offer - apologies if I missed it - so here it is:

​

Our Ref: BR2/10/1



8 November 2023





Dear RMT Member



DEFEND JOBS, PAY & CONDITIONS - TRAIN OPERATING COMPANIES



We have now received a proposal document from the Rail Delivery Group which your National Executive Committee has decided to put to you the members in a referendum vote in each of the Train Operating Companies. I have produced a video for members explaining the proposals and the voting process, which can be viewed here.



You will now decide whether we go forward with the proposals.



The proposal sets out a fresh approach in this dispute, which in summary provides for:

• · an unconditional pay offer, backdated to anniversary in 2022
• · a job security commitment
• · a discussion, negotiation and consultation process which extends to the end of April 2024

Firstly, there is a standalone pay offer without conditions for the year 2022-2023. This consists of a 5% increase in salaries, or an increment of £1750, whichever is the greater. This means that anyone with a base salary below £35,000 per year will receive an increase of greater than 5%.



For example, for a member on £30,000 salary this is equivalent to 5.8%, on £25,000 it is 7% and for those on £20,000 it is equivalent to 8.75%.



Importantly, this pay proposal is not conditional. And this is different from before.



We do not have to accept any of the changes - the so-called Workforce Reforms - that the government has been trying to force on us.



The second element of the proposals is on job security. The document gives a commitment that there will be no compulsory redundancies in any company up to the end of 2024. But the proposal goes further and lifts the current recruitment freeze on vacancies.



The document also confirms the withdrawal of the ticket office closure programme, the associated re-organisation documents and the S188 redundancy letters.



The third element of the proposals relates to the Government and Companies' Workforce Reform proposals.



We have already faced down and defeated important elements of their agenda such as Driver Only Operation, Ticket Office closures, attacks on the Railway Pension Scheme, and the extension of working hours - all of which have been removed.



But they are still wanting to introduce changes to conditions and working practices that are troubling. We have not agreed to any of these measures.



This proposal sets out a process by which these matters can be addressed after a pause period. The process envisaged is for the companies to provide their proposals for each department and grade group and for discussions on these matters to be deferred to February 2024, and then for a 3-month discussion period in the company councils going through to the end of April 2024.



The full extent of your collective bargaining agreements will be honoured, including the Avoidance of Disputes processes. If after that defined period there are disputes, then we would be free to conduct ballots for action as we see fit.



I must emphasise again that we have not agreed to any of these measures - this would be a process through which the company's proposals can be discussed.



Pay negotiations for the year 2023-2024 would also commence in February 2024 and the companies want to link Workforce Reform to pay for that year.



The proposal would give members considerable back pay, but also the assurance that their conditions and working practices have not been diluted in any way in order to get that pay offer.



The pay offer remains below the rate of inflation and is not what we would have wanted. But it does provide for a considerable period of time, for the next 6 months, where there will be no need for industrial action as there will be no changes imposed on you. And we can continue to campaign.



RMT remains fundamentally opposed to detrimental changes to our members' terms and conditions, and we will seek to protect them throughout this process and in the discussions in your company and for your grade.



I am currently making the arrangements for the referendum in each of the companies and the details will be provided to you shortly - members should expect the vote to open this Friday (10th November). The referendum will close on Thursday 30th November and, should the proposals be accepted, the document commits to backpay being in your accounts before Christmas.



You will be provided with the documentation and instructions on how to vote in the electronic referendum. This will be conducted by email and we will need an email address for every member to take part.



If you currently do not receive emails from RMT (and have only received this message via text), update your records with an email address, by sending it along with your membership number and the company you work for to: referenda@rmt.org.uk



I want to thank you again for your commitment to the campaign we have been conducting, to the dispute, to your union and each other. It's your efforts in the strikes and in delivering the mandates that have brought this offer at this time. I am so proud of what we have achieved, but there is more to do.



This campaign is not over. Whichever way the referendum votes go, we will continue until we have dealt with all of the issues.



If the proposals are rejected, we will continue to our campaign under the current industrial action mandate and set down industrial action.



If you vote Yes to accept the proposal you will receive the salary increase, the job security guarantee and we will go into the discussion process in spring 2024.



So, the matter is now with you, the members. Please use your vote and play your part in making the decision.
Yours sincerely,



Michael Lynch
General Secretary

www.rmt.org.uk/​

 

[winks]

whilst it provides a pay uplift and I must admit I do agree and support the idea of a minimum Underpin (£1750) TOC staff are still a year behind on agreeing a payrise for 2023-24. By the time this is agreed it will be another years worth of back-pay and T&Cs reform bolted onto it (which will probably be detrimental) Whereas NR staff will be opening pay talks shortly for Apr onwards.

 

[ValentaFan1974]

Baby steps though. Staff need a no-strings backdated deal now. Negotiate the rest on a TOC by TOC basis next. Give people a little financial relief first… this proposal gets my vote..

 

[Russel]

So, what has changed, what has resulted in the Tories caving in on the changes to Ts & Cs they were so determined to change only a matter of months ago?

 

[dk1]

So, what has changed, what has resulted in the Tories caving in on the changes to Ts & Cs they were so determined to change only a matter of months ago?

Some may say the general election looming. Industrial disputes have a negative impact as the public feels they are not in control. There has also been a campaign from the retail and leisure sector for the government to strike (excuse the pun) a deal as they say that if the run up to Christmas is affected again many businesses will not survive.

 

[jon0844]

The fact rail usage is continuing to grow also makes it increasingly difficult every day to argue that nobody wants to use the railway and it is somehow dying - therefore major cuts and changes must be made.

It was impacted by Covid but so was just about everything.

 

[dk1]

The fact rail usage is continuing to grow also makes it increasingly difficult every day to argue that nobody wants to use the railway and it is somehow dying - therefore major cuts and changes must be made.

It was impacted by Covid but so was just about everything.

There has been an even greater leap in commuting in my neck of the woods in the last few weeks. Not sure what’s suddenly caused this boost but the crowding is becoming quite severe.

 

[Snow1964]

So, what has changed, what has resulted in the Tories caving in on the changes to Ts & Cs they were so determined to change only a matter of months ago?

The number of ticket office closure consultations objections and subsequent U turn must have rattled those ahead of an election within next 14 months.

ORR is due to publish latest rail usage figures 9th November (today), maybe Government had advance copy and realised the COVID reduced numbers mean ability to use it as excuse are over, and need to move forward.

There will be political decision behind it somewhere, which probably wont be released to Public Records Office inspection for 30 years (or even 75 years once current politicians dead)

 

[Bluejays]

Isn't this essentially what the Government have been offering since April and the RMT have refused to put to their members until now?

- 5% pay rise for 2022. Check.
- No compulsory redundancies for the foreseeable future. Check.
- End of current dispute with the opportunity to re-ballot in a few months time..Check.

The RMT would appear to have cost their members several days of lost pay for absolutely nothing

It's been made clear, over and over again by many rail staff. That the changes to t+c's were the bits that were really worrying most of us.

 

[Moonshot]

It's been made clear, over and over again by many rail staff. That the changes to t+c's were the bits that were really worrying most of us.

Those changes to terms and conditions could still happen

 

[Bluejays]

Those changes to terms and conditions could still happen

They're now going to be discussions at a company level. The normal dispute resolution procedures will also apply.

 

[irish_rail]

Some may say the general election looming. Industrial disputes have a negative impact as the public feels they are not in control. There has also been a campaign from the retail and leisure sector for the government to strike (excuse the pun) a deal as they say that if the run up to Christmas is affected again many businesses will not survive.

The question has to be why not Aslef though, as driver strikes cause far more disruption.

 

[Bald Rick]

There has been an even greater leap in commuting in my neck of the woods in the last few weeks. Not sure what’s suddenly caused this boost but the crowding is becoming quite severe.

It‘s by far the busiest time of year for commuting, late Sep to end of Nov (excl half term).

Natonally, revenue and passenger numbers are actually behind forecasts.

 

[Towers]

The question has to be why not Aslef though, as driver strikes cause far more disruption.

Might it be that RMT members have so far borne far more of the brunt of the striking and therefore are thought much more likely to settle in the very short timeframe that seems to suddenly be on the table, and once they’ve settled Aslef might be more inclined to just accept the same and get on with it?

 

[ainsworth74]

There will be political decision behind it somewhere, which probably wont be released to Public Records Office inspection for 30 years (or even 75 years once current politicians dead)

I admire your optimism! I fear any such information will have been contained in a WhatsApp that auto deleted a few days after sending!

 

[footprints]

It's been made clear, over and over again by many rail staff. That the changes to t+c's were the bits that were really worrying most of us.

It's also been made clear, over and over again, that (other than closing ticket offices) those changes to t+c's aren't off the table. The RMT have signed up to pretty much the same terms they claimed no union could ever sign up to in April, they're just putting a different spin on it now.

 

[Towers]

It's also been made clear, over and over again, that (other than closing ticket offices) those changes to t+c's aren't off the table. The RMT have signed up to pretty much the same terms they claimed no union could ever sign up to in April, they're just putting a different spin on it now.

Perhaps both sides realised that some sort of movement forwards was, finally, essential, and that whatever spin has been placed on this will at least deliver a payrise of some sort as well as a temporary cessation of strikes.

 

[dk1]

It‘s by far the busiest time of year for commuting, late Sep to end of Nov (excl half term).

Natonally, revenue and passenger numbers are actually behind forecasts.

We must be very popular in the East going by what I witness.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Nov 2023 ==

The question has to be why not Aslef though, as driver strikes cause far more disruption.

I suppose somebody had to be first. It was news to everybody so hopefully ASLEF are keeping quiet and going to make a statement at some point.

 

[richfoz84]

ASLEF have received no offers at present.

Potential strike dates have been discussed also.

 

[Towers]

ASLEF have received no offers at present.

Potential strike dates have been discussed also.

To be fair, if Aslef were to receive an offer at this point they will have done very well out of the RMT membership, whose campaign has been significantly larger and garnered far more publicity and coverage so far.

 

[DMckduck]

I just want to know what the catch is? We kept being told there was no money and only way to get a raise was by giving up conditions. What has changed? The only thing I can think of is the Gov have realised they will definitely be out of power within a year and so this will essentially be funded by Labour going forward. Also strange that Aslef haven't been mentioned. Unless they are planning something hideous like fire and rehire for drivers once all other grades are safe and secure...... maybe I'm being overly pessimistic and suspicious, I certainly hope so.

The catch is there's a general election coming and they've now realised the party is on the brink of annihilation next year at the polls. They will latch on to anything that may give them votes and saving Christmas from striking might make a slight difference. Also are the anti strike laws even legal and could if put into practice at Christmas and then further proven to be illegal decimate the parties chances even further.

This is all political power play now

 

[Starmill]

Thank goddess there's finally a step forward!!

 

[N0G83]

There has been an even greater leap in commuting in my neck of the woods in the last few weeks. Not sure what’s suddenly caused this boost but the crowding is becoming quite severe.

Always is busy around now with Lord Mayors Show, Armistice Day/ Remembrance Sunday and the run up to Xmas!