New Rail line near Newport

[AndyPJG]

{Couldn't find an existing relevant thread, if someone knows better...}
BBC News - Wales

TfW travel: New rail line for major Cardiff events axed​

A railway line aimed at improving travel after major events in Cardiff has been cancelled.
The Welsh government pulled the plug on the plan, saying it no longer offered value for money.
Transport for Wales (TfW) says it cannot get back £10m spent on preparing to build the track at a steelworks near Newport.
But Senedd opposition parties said public money had been lost on the project.
Under the plans, extra trains could have waited on the 1.6km-long line near the Llanwern steelworks when big crowds of fans were expected at venues such as the Principality Stadium.
It would have provided additional capacity, making transport run more smoothly.
In its latest annual report, TfW said the £10.54m spent on the project since 2018 was "now considered irrecoverable".
The company says other plans to open new commuter stations around Newport and Cardiff, including at Llanwern, will go ahead.
.......
Sarah Hemsley-Cole, who runs a Cardiff-based event production company, said the city had "really fragile transport infrastructure".
"There's always a great push on sustainability and I don't think we really have the solutions here in Wales to deliver a robust transport network to support the events that we have," she said.
Football fan Evan Powell, 20, of Cefn Hengoed, Caerphilly county, says, while delays on match days are inevitable, overcrowding is the biggest issue.
"The amount of times that a two-carriage train has turned up at a platform with hundreds of people waiting on… you're either getting refused to travel back or you're stuck in the most uncomfortable train ride that could be potentially dangerous," he said.
...continues..

From the general comments in the later part of the article, it would seem the real issue is lack of train coach capacity (ie carriages) rather than line capacity for more trains, or am I mis-understanding the problem?

 

[WatcherZero]

Presumably it was a long stabling siding so successive trains could be rapidly dispatched to pickup post event passengers.

 

[Signal_Box]

South Wales infrastructure discussion thread:

South Wales Metro & wider South Wales infrastructure discussion

As suggested by the moderation team, a separate thread for general Metro & wider South Wales infrastructure discussion. 1699240792 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-67321727?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=news_tab A railway line aimed at improving travel after major events in Cardiff has been...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Envoy]

How can they spend £10 million for nothing?

Why could they just use the freight lines to the East Moors Steel mill in the Splott area of Cardiff for stabling special trains? Failing that, what about taking special event trains to the line to Machen quarry as a holding point while events the place? Of course, these lines would not be any good for electric trains.

 

[The Planner]

How can they spend £10 million for nothing?

Why could they just use the freight lines to the East Moors Steel mill in the Splott area of Cardiff for stabling special trains? Failing that, what about taking special event trains to the line to Machen quarry as a holding point while events the place?

One train working on the Machen branch. Cardiff Docks needs a PIC (person in charge) and a load of reversals at Pengam. Its not NR infrastructure either, so it has a cost each time as you won't get it for free.

 

[John R]

Given Cardiff is one of the Euro 2028 venues, and is looking to host the opening fixture, I hope there is a plan to avoid the transport debacle we saw in 2012 when the Olympics meant travel patterns for the matches there were different to the more normal events with resulting waits of several hours.

 

[Envoy]

The trains can barely cope with the normal flows of passengers and they don’t have spare stock to call up to cope with surges.

The M4 choke point at the Newport tunnel makes road travel from England nigh on impossible when events happen in Cardiff.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

How can they spend £10 million for nothing?

I'm wondering why a simple mile long siding would need to cost anything near that much in the first place!!

 

[The Planner]

I'm wondering why a simple mile long siding would need to cost anything near that much in the first place!!

It will be wider than that, anyone who works on it will be off costing their time to the project. Think bigger than just infrastructure.

 

[Lucan]

Think bigger than just infrastructure.

Assuming it is a long siding or loop on land already owned by the railway (correct me if I am wrong), 150 years ago they would have had it laid in a week.

 

[The Planner]

Assuming it is a long siding or loop on land already owned by the railway (correct me if I am wrong), 150 years ago they would have had it laid in a week.

Not sure of the relevance of that?

 

[Worf]

I suppose it is pointless (pun intended) to have an extra long siding when you have no rolling stock to put on it. Pales into the background compared to £200m wasted on an airport that nobody uses abd a huge amount on not building the M4 relief road.

 

[Last Hurrah]

Breaking this down into various bits that need to be pulled together
I.e. what’s required ? what is needed ?

1 : How many trains need to be stabled for an acceptable pre & post event service ? ( 2, 3, 6, 7, ? )
2 : How many Electric trains ? (No stabling option West of Cardiff)
3: Will TfW have enough stock to cover events
4 : Can charter stock be brought in for one off events (subject to an acceptable hiring cost) to supplement services - could Diesel Charter services be stabled at Margam ?

Once a clearer picture of what is required, can then look to suggest possible solutions

 

[Dai Corner]

I do wonder if stabling specials was its sole, or even main, purpose.

It would have been handy for CAF to test and/or store new trains from their adjacent assembly plant. Of course it can't serve that purpose now as it hasn't been possible to lay the last few metres due to that gas main nobody apparently realised was there.

Calling it a stabling facility would have avoided WG being accused of unfairly subsidising CAF.

 

[CardiffKid]

How many trains need to be stabled for an acceptable pre & post event service ? ( 2, 3, 6, 7, ? )

this would be useful to know and assuming on a major event day that every unit is in service (some will end up sitting around during the game/event waiting for kicking out time I know) but Canton should be largely empty - could that not be used to stable stock for 4-6 hours?

 

[PG]

It would have been handy for CAF to test and/or store new trains from their adjacent assembly plant. Of course it can't serve that purpose now as it hasn't been possible to lay the last few metres due to that gas main nobody apparently realised was there.

Presumably someone enquired of utility companies if they had any infrastructure in the area? Or did the gas network operator not realise where their own kit was?

 

[WelshBluebird]

Can't help but feel there's huge over reactions to this.

First of all waiting for trains at Cardiff really isn't as bad as some people have made out anyway. Anyone who expects to not have to queue for a period of time at a station so close to the stadium is deluded. Either deal with it (as many people do elsewhere too, e g. Twickenham), or go somewhere else in town for a hour or two. The only exception being evening stadium events, but that has nothing to do with stabling capacity.

Secondly, many of the previous issues will hopefully be sorted thanks to GWR being able to use the 387s and TfW getting new stock and increasing frequencies in the coming years. So I wonder how much this extra stabling would be needed anyway.

 

[QJ]

Can't help but feel there's huge over reactions to this.

First of all waiting for trains at Cardiff really isn't as bad as some people have made out anyway. Anyone who expects to not have to queue for a period of time at a station so close to the stadium is deluded. Either deal with it (as many people do elsewhere too, e g. Twickenham), or go somewhere else in town for a hour or two. The only exception being evening stadium events, but that has nothing to do with stabling capacity.

Secondly, many of the previous issues will hopefully be sorted thanks to GWR being able to use the 387s and TfW getting new stock and increasing frequencies in the coming years. So I wonder how much this extra stabling would be needed anyway.

Ah. Yes. Those lovely queues in the cold and wet outside Central station. I recall trying to bypass the throngs by sneaking onto the platform via a short queue. I found I could only access one platform because of the temporary barriers and strategically placed staff. Jumped on the first train at that platform. Too late I found it was first stop Leeds! That was an interesting call to the missus.

 

[PG]

Ah. Yes. Those lovely queues in the cold and wet outside Central station. I recall trying to bypass the throngs by sneaking onto the platform via a short queue. I found I could only access one platform because of the temporary barriers and strategically placed staff. Jumped on the first train at that platform. Too late I found it was first stop Leeds! That was an interesting call to the missus.

See thats where queue jumping Leeds you

 

[John R]

Out of interest, are the old Freightliner sidings just to the east of the Rover Way bridge a) still in use and b) ever used to hold trains prior to the end of events at the stadium? At a quick glance there would be around 3x400m available, assuming nothing was scheduled to use the docks line during that period.

And talking of Freightliner, could the current depot in Wentloog be used by a couple of trains? I don't know how busy the depot is, but again there is around 3x500m of length available if the facility could be negotiated.

 

[QJ]

See thats where queue jumping Leeds you

Yes. But the buffet car was selling BR style bacon toasties fresh off the griddle (like you used to get on those SR units I used to commute to work on). There was an upside to the long way home.

 

[The Planner]

Out of interest, are the old Freightliner sidings just to the east of the Rover Way bridge a) still in use and b) ever used to hold trains prior to the end of events at the stadium? At a quick glance there would be around 3x400m available, assuming nothing was scheduled to use the docks line during that period.

And talking of Freightliner, could the current depot in Wentloog be used by a couple of trains? I don't know how busy the depot is, but again there is around 3x500m of length available if the facility could be negotiated.

Would all have a cost the facility owner would want paying, and staffing within the terminal at Wentloog. TfW would want to use non private sidings I suspect.

 

[John R]

Would all have a cost the facility owner would want paying, and staffing within the terminal at Wentloog. TfW would want to use non private sidings I suspect.

Sure - I'm not naive enough to think it would be for free, but given non-private sidings nearby are in short supply (other than the ones I mentioned at the old Freightliner terminal) if cost is the only consideration then surely it would be an option.

 

[Dai Corner]

Would all have a cost the facility owner would want paying, and staffing within the terminal at Wentloog. TfW would want to use non private sidings I suspect.

Sure - I'm not naive enough to think it would be for free, but given non-private sidings nearby are in short supply (other than the ones I mentioned at the old Freightliner terminal) if cost is the only consideration then surely it would be an option.

I wonder how much use of private sidings £10m would buy?

 

[WelshBluebird]

Ah. Yes. Those lovely queues in the cold and wet outside Central station.

No worse than the same lovely queues in the cold and wet outside Twickenham station for example.

The only way I could see to solve that specific issue would be either force reservations onto specific trains and harshly police those by having difference queues for the different trains (so a queue per train rather than a queue per destination, which would be a bad idea IMO and would result in more hassle than what it is worth), or build a large concourse over the current Central Square area so it would be under cover (which again I can't see happening).

 

[QJ]

No worse than the same lovely queues in the cold and wet outside Twickenham station for example.

The only way I could see to solve that specific issue would be either force reservations onto specific trains and harshly police those by having difference queues for the different trains (so a queue per train rather than a queue per destination, which would be a bad idea IMO and would result in more hassle than what it is worth), or build a large concourse over the current Central Square area so it would be under cover (which again I can't see happening).

The difference between Central and Twickenham is you can easily walk to other railway stations close by or jump on a bus to avoid the queues. Same as you can at Old Trafford with trams (on the Eccles line) and buses to get on the move.

My memories of getting to and from Cardiff are clouded by a train loads worth of passengers being left behind at Abergavenny on the way there and the length of the queue of people waiting for trains back to Abergavenny and the North West afterwards. I appreciate that the occasion was a RL Challenge Cup Final so not your usual demographic for a rugby match at the Millennium Stadium.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The difference between Central and Twickenham is you can easily walk to other railway stations close by or jump on a bus to avoid the queues. Same as you can at Old Trafford with trams (on the Eccles line) and buses to get on the move.

I can only talk about my experiences whilst going to Rugby at both stadiums and neither seemed better or worse than the other. Cardiff seemed more organised but in terms of how long it took to wait and how painful it was, I'd say both were the same.

My memories of getting to and from Cardiff are clouded by a train loads worth of passengers being left behind at Abergavenny on the way there and the length of the queue of people waiting for trains back to Abergavenny and the North West afterwards. I appreciate that the occasion was a RL Challenge Cup Final so not your usual demographic for a rugby match at the Millennium Stadium.

Any would any of that be solved by a mile long stabling line near Newport? I doubt it!

I'm not saying the experience at Cardiff after events is perfect - it certainly isn't. My point is more that the reaction to the news that was the original topic of this thread has been a bit OTT.

My issues when travelling to and from Cardiff for events has been summed up by a lack of rolling stock, the rolling stock being too short and frequencies not being high enough. TfW and GWR generally have plans in place to try to improve those things (South Wales Metro, using the class 387's as crowd busters etc etc), and whilst those things won't solve everything, they will help a lot more than a mile long stabling line.

I'd also add that I absolutely agree there is a big issue with travelling West from Cardiff or to mid / North Wales from Cardiff, and those challenges are something that I hope GWR and TfW look at going forward (I'm a football fan, and its a common complain from North Wales based fans that getting to and from Cardiff for a match is a pain, but when something is held in North Wales the FAW / TfW seem to pull out quite a few things to help those living nearer Cardiff). But again, would either of those issues be solved by a mile long stabling line? No.

 

[QJ]

Wellshbluebird. Why the aggressive posts? Where did I say I was in favour of the mile long stabling line? My posts alluded to the same as you; inadequate train lengths to cope with the flow of passengers (attending an event or not) on event days particularly if travelling longer distances when delays have more of a knock on effect.

In any case I enjoyed my diversion via Leeds. Tea and bacon toasties much more enjoyable than festering in a queue going nowhere fast.

 

[Last Hurrah]

With a 72000 full house, TfW should be targeting moving a third of those attending by train

Multiple trains of a sufficient length are needed to all destinations

TfW planners - over to you to ensure a smooth outcome in time for the 3x Six Nations games in Feb & March

 

[Cambrian359]

where will the GWR 12 car crowdbusters park up then when awaiting match finishes?(and free platforms) Weren’t they one of bigger reasons behind this stabling line?
I’m going to guess there aren’t many places you can hide a small fleet of 9-12 car trains awaiting a match finish.