GWR 'Project Churchward'

[Snow1964]

Coming rather late to this particular game, but even before having through gangways, hopefully someone will push for everything to be capable of being coupled to everything else. And all controlled from the front cab.

That is a strong point, and it doesn't make lot of sense either not to be able to couple one of the new battery EMUs to a 387.

Quite easy to envisage a local set coming via Kemble or via Melksham being coupled at Swindon for a quick run to Old Oak Common in few years time. Lack of line capacity from Maidenhead to Paddington means a 12car EMU from 2 or 3 destinations is probably more important than fitting in a 5car IET

GWR need to remember that there are well over 100 days each year where an event means need to be able to move spare stock to strengthen services (Cheltenham festival, Glastonbury, Henley Regatta, Bath Christmas markets, Cardiff Rugby and concerts etc). Can't add a IET to a local train to lengthen it

 

[Snow1964]

We have reached November and the project has gone very quiet, no sign of any tender being issued (which would be months before any order), although something might be happening at a glacial pace in background.

I am guessing lack of money is at heart of it, although will be interesting to see if GWR is officially above pre-covid passenger volume when the ORR figures published this week. Will focus lots of minds about lack of stock if media resume crowded trains again.

 

[JonathanH]

We have reached November and the project has gone very quiet, no sign of any tender being issued (which would be months before any order), although something might be happening at a glacial pace in background.

Do we expect negotiations to be done in public? I agree that a tender will ultimately have to be issued, but is there an expectation that it should have happened by now?

 

[Energy]

Do we expect negotiations to be done in public? I agree that a tender will ultimately have to be issued, but is there an expectation that it should have happened by now?

Civil Service resources are pretty stretched at the moment and Rishi's busy wasting DfT time on Network North...

 

[Snow1964]

Do we expect negotiations to be done in public? I agree that a tender will ultimately have to be issued, but is there an expectation that it should have happened by now?

No I wouldn't expect them in public, but then I would expect them to occasionally update their website so it is more consistent with what is actually happening

Try reading the Planning for our future on this part of GWRs website

Our Performance | Great Western Railway

Track how our performance has improved with getting your trains to you and your destination on time. For more details on our hard work visit our site.

www.gwr.com

 

[DelW]

Civil Service resources are pretty stretched at the moment and Rishi's busy wasting DfT time on Network North...

Available evidence would surely suggest that the government's Network North statement was knocked up by one of the office juniors in about half an hour or so ...

If a senior civil servant produced that pile of tosh then we're in an even worse state that I thought.

 

[Energy]

Available evidence would surely suggest that the government's Network North statement was knocked up by one of the office juniors in about half an hour or so ...

If a senior civil servant produced that pile of tosh then we're in an even worse state that I thought.

Network North had no involvement from NR so I agree that it was knocked up by one of Rishi's office juniors, though some DfT resources seem to have been used defending it, and figuring out what happens post HS2 2a/2b cancellation. Civil Service morale is at a low point, shown by the Home Office backlog.

 

[Bald Rick]

Network North had no involvement from NR so I agree that it was knocked up by one of Rishi's office juniors,

Office seniors…

 

[Energy]

Office seniors…

Doesn't speak well when office seniors have Manchester in the wrong place on the map.

Rather in theme for Rishi...

 

[Bald Rick]

Doesn't speak well when office seniors have Manchester in the wrong place on the map.

Rather in theme for Rishi...

It‘s fair to say that, in my opinion, competence in cartography is the least of the problems with it!

 

[Energy]

It‘s fair to say that, in my opinion, competence in cartography is the least of the problems with it!

There isn't anything good in that report, it just varies between lack of railway/transport experience and general incompetence...

 

[I'm here now]

I disagree pure DMU or diesel electric is the ONLY option for the GWR network especially with the gradients in Cornwall and South Devon Banks the idea of using battery trains is quite frankly laughable.

Maybe some patchy 3rd rail and OHLE would do with batteries.

 

[Pete_uk]

I would like to think there would be a semi-dedicated five carriage fleet for the Cardiff to Portsmouth services.

 

[CptCharlee]

The idea of one single can design and fleet with 2 different interiors is a great move. However you'd need to design the fleet so it could go on the Looe and Gunnislake branches as well.

My understanding was two different interior specs
Interior Spec #1: Intercity type used on Longer West Country services and Portsmouth to Cardiff.

Interior spec #2: on the South West branches and metro services in Exeter/Bristol areas.

How they achieve this will be interesting basically combining multiple classes of units into one singular train. What's the bet its CAF lol.

 

[JohnRegular]

The idea of one single can design and fleet with 2 different interiors is a great move. However you'd need to design the fleet so it could go on the Looe and Gunnislake branches as well.

My understanding was two different interior specs
Interior Spec #1: Intercity type used on Longer West Country services and Portsmouth to Cardiff.

Interior spec #2: on the South West branches and metro services in Exeter/Bristol areas.

How they achieve this will be interesting basically combining multiple classes of units into one singular train. What's the bet its CAF lol.

Sounds like the 450/444, save for the issues with branch lines.

 

[Snow1964]

The idea of one single can design and fleet with 2 different interiors is a great move. However you'd need to design the fleet so it could go on the Looe and Gunnislake branches as well.

My understanding was two different interior specs
Interior Spec #1: Intercity type used on Longer West Country services and Portsmouth to Cardiff.

Interior spec #2: on the South West branches and metro services in Exeter/Bristol areas.

How they achieve this will be interesting basically combining multiple classes of units into one singular train. What's the bet its CAF lol.

Let's hope they keep it simple, and not go in for mix of 2car and 3car for the local trains. Two much random swapping of them goes on because it only works if you have lots of spare units to always allow correct formation. Really would be better if they just bit the bullet and extended the remaining short platforms to take 6car trains, even if bit shorter carriages at 21-22m. Single units off peak, double units peak (easy to do with automatic couplers)

For the regional Express version, would be sensible to order them all as 5car (with option for 6th car). There really is no point in operating mixed pairs of units.

As to how to do it, probably best to have two pairs of doors spaced nearer the centre in a lower floor section (to allow level boarding), then ramps in corridor to the 2+2 seating raised where the bogies are. Will get a better ambiance if they keep the window pillars slim and ensure all seats look out of windows, not pillars. The short area between doors would be suitable for multi purpose area on the local units (tip up longtitudinal seats, bike racks etc).

One final thing, if the Express version is going to be a battery EMU for Portsmouth-Cardiff etc, then needs to be able to couple to a 387 so can strengthen trains to Cardiff when events are on, or allow say a train along Golden Valley via Stroud to couple to one going to London.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The idea of one single can design and fleet with 2 different interiors is a great move. However you'd need to design the fleet so it could go on the Looe and Gunnislake branches as well.

In practice there may have to be microfleets for such circumstances - but can problems be minimised by maximizing commonality of components, which would presumably mean sourcing the microfleets from the same place as the main fleet?

 

[aem7ac]

5-car versions of the CAF tri-mode 397 derivatives based off what LNER is getting? Might make sense for the Castle replacement.

 

[43096]

5-car versions of the CAF tri-mode 397 derivatives based off what LNER is getting? Might make sense for the Castle replacement.

You don’t need 125mph stock for this service group - and Castle replacement is already planned without needing new trains.

Flirts - with their level boarding - are the way to go. They would be as transformative as they have been for the Greater Anglia “regional” routes.

 

[JonathanH]

5-car versions of the CAF tri-mode 397 derivatives based off what LNER is getting? Might make sense for the Castle replacement.

There is no pointy nose requirement for regional stock.

 

[aem7ac]

There is no pointy nose requirement for regional stock.

On that note. When's the last time something completely new and flat fronted entered service? I'd assume it was with the Electrostar family. I'm not counting the 230/484s because of their already existing flat fronts as D78s.

 

[Snow1964]

On that note. When's the last time something completely new and flat fronted entered service? I'd assume it was with the Electrostar family. I'm not counting the 230/484s because of their already existing flat fronts as D78s.

Probably the class 378s
But they are not true flat fronted, they are slightly rounded

But it does raise serious question, if they build a 5 or 6 car regional version, unlikely to work in multiple so why fit end gangways. But a 3car local version, might work in pairs on Bristol suburban so through gangways would be advantage

The big question is if they are a BEMU, do you make them able to couple to a 387. Or effectively have non compatible electric units. Wouldn't then be able to extend a Newbury service as a part train, or similarly extend Didcot services and split with some carrying on to Melksham or Stroud or whatever.

 

[aem7ac]

Probably the class 378s
But they are not true flat fronted, they are slightly rounded

But it does raise serious question, if they build a 5 or 6 car regional version, unlikely to work in multiple so why fit end gangways. But a 3car local version, might work in pairs on Bristol suburban so through gangways would be advantage

The big question is if they are a BEMU, do you make them able to couple to a 387. Or effectively have non compatible electric units

I don't think they'd be interoperable with a 387, at least in revenue. If they were battery, they'd likely have charging capability through a pantograph - meaning they wouldn't need to run with a 387 as the pantograph would probably also directly power traction.
If they do go shorter, they could fit end gangways - the same technology could be applied to the 197 body if they choose CAF.

 

[Anonymous10]

On that note. When's the last time something completely new and flat fronted entered service? I'd assume it was with the Electrostar family. I'm not counting the 230/484s because of their already existing flat fronts as D78s.

The 196s and 197s? Admittedly there is a slight curve though.

 

[aem7ac]

The 196s and 197s? Admittedly there is a slight curve though.

That could be argued. I think they have a pronounced enough curve though in the windows to not be considered “flat”, same with the 730s.
Either way, concerning the Project Churchward units, indeed if they’re long enough they may not need a flat end or end gangway as pointed out earlier. Maybe we see several variants ordered? 2 car (with end gangway), 4/5 car?

 

[Energy]

Maybe we see several variants ordered? 2 car (with end gangway), 4/5 car?

You don't want too many variants. GWR currently struggle as a 2 car ending up on a diagram intended for a 3 car, turning a busy 3 car service to a crush loaded 2 car.

IMO the best for GWR is a 3 and 5 car mix, though end gangways would be useful (if not necessary) on a 3 car unit they'd be unused on 5 car units.

 

[Anonymous10]

You don't want too many variants. GWR currently struggle as a 2 car ending up on a diagram intended for a 3 car, turning a busy 3 car service to a crush loaded 2 car.

IMO the best for GWR is a 3 and 5 car mix, though end gangways would be useful (if not necessary) on a 3 car unit they'd be unused on 5 car units.

I think a 2 3 5 mix is best.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think a 2 3 5 mix is best.

Why not just 2 and 3, both with gangways? You can then form 5s.

I'm unconvinced they do actually need a different layout for the two types of service. The layout of the Class 195 or 197, or the Chiltern Clubman 168 (for example) would be entirely suitable for both types of service. If they felt a particular one justified First Class e.g. because of high business travel, an 80x could be diagrammed for it. But I'm unconvinced First Class isn't basically dead other than on InterCity services to London now.

That said if these are to be bi-modes, 2 is difficult to do because of limited underfloor space. 3 or longer is possible as you have diesels under the end coaches and a pantograph and transformer on the middle one.

 

[Dan G]

Networkers haven't been built for over 30 years (if you ignore the similar, but not identical 168s)

But recent diesel classes eg 196, 197 are likely to be around into 2060s.

The question for GWR is what does it get for Devon and Cornwall local services, even if electrification gets extended to Frome or Weston-super-Mare areas, there is no short or medium term likelihood of it getting much further, at best might get to Taunton, and even slimmer chance of it getting to Exeter area. Therefore in next decade no point buying battery EMUs for any services running south west of Taunton. Much more likely to electrify northwards towards Gloucester and Bromsgrove before considering going towards Devon.

Any battery EMUs are going to have to run to Dorchester, Redbridge, Worcester etc. And the longer distance versions are going to also need third rail 750v fitted

Electrification in the southwest will be wires in sections where they're easy to install charging batteries in the rolling stock for off-wire ops.

 

[Pat31]

Electrification in the southwest will be wires in sections where they're easy to install charging batteries in the rolling stock for off-wire ops.

You'd assume that since wires aren't going to be put up in that region within the near future that GWR's order for the replacement stock to serve this route could well be tri-mode FLIRTS? So their Diesel Engine's can be removed once wires are up.