how would you build a modern steam/non-electric train?

[randyrippley]

EMP would destroy existing electronics but not prevent the making of new ones. The skills to do so are in enough human brains that they would not be lost.

Similarly power grids may be damaged but can be rebuilt.

but the electronics in the manufacturing sites would have been fried, preventing you from using the equipment to make new kit.
You'd be restricted to pre-transistor technology, i.e. 1950s electricals. Stuff which if necessary could be hand built. Even then you'd be restricted to DC dynamos in the locos - there wouldn't be many people left who could blow the glass for a mercury-arc rectifier, or even create valve electronics

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Nov 2023 ==

There are plenty of boilersmiths in the UK.

So, take the combined capacity of them all, how many locomotives could they build in a year?
How many erecting sheds are there? How many foundries capable of handling/lifting/forging on the scale needed? How many brass foundries for valves and gauges?

 

[HSTEd]

but the electronics in the manufacturing sites would have been fried, preventing you from using the equipment to make new kit.
You'd be restricted to pre-transistor technology, i.e. 1950s electricals. Stuff which if necessary could be hand built. Even then you'd be restricted to DC dynamos in the locos - there wouldn't be many people left who could blow the glass for a mercury-arc rectifier, or even create valve electronics

Late industrial mercury arc rectifiers tended towards metal cans that were considerably less fragile.
They are likely much easier to fabricate with common tools, the hard part would be getting the mercury.

In any case, given that the operational regime in the post attack railway will probably be very low speed freight operations, you only need the equivalent of a Class 03.
A diesel or spark ignition (wood gas) mechanical transmission locomotive would make a steamer look like a dinosaur.

So, take the combined capacity of them all, how many locomotives could they build in a year?
How many erecting sheds are there? How many foundries capable of handling/lifting/forging on the scale needed? How many brass foundries for valves and gauges?

In a post attack scenario, the major question is "how many of them are dead"?

 

[randyrippley]

In any case, given that the operational regime in the post attack railway will probably be very low speed freight operations, you only need the equivalent of a Class 03.

But it seems that most of the Gardners from the 03/04 fleets ended up in China and the far east powering fishing boats.....
I wonder if there was a similar trend of re-use for the 08 and 20 diesels?

 

[Peter Wilde]

They wouldn't have needed overhauling, some 9Fs were withdrawn after only a few years of use. If a strategic reserve was considered an important asset (like the control trains were) then mothballing them somewhere undercover with bags of silica gel to keep the boilers dry would have been done. The UK retained no strategic reserve (despite rumours of Granges in Box Tunnel) and of course the Cold War never got hot so the question of whether that would have been a bad decision in the event was never answered.

It was thanks to the Swedish strategic reserve that a WD 2-8-0 entered preservation. Bosnia continues the use of a handful of steam locomotives (pirated USA tanks and Kriegslok 2-10-0s) in order to safeguard the continued operation of their coal mines and power stations even if oil supplies were to be cut off.

Yes the creation of any meaningful strategic reserve requires careful planning and some investment.

David Wardale’s book "The Red Devil” commented on attempts in South Africa to create a reserve of steam locomotives. He pointed out that to be useful in a future crisis, locomotives should be overhauled just before withdrawal; be suitably prepared for storage; and be stored in dry conditions and protected against misuse, theft of parts, etc. All this requires money and effort and the SAR was not willing to do it properly.

 

[Wolfie]

How unresilient is modern technology? I assume the impact of EMP would be only whilst a nuclear strike took place and dissipate from ground zero.

Lots of unhardened electronic components would be fried.

 

[Krokodil]

Maybe I'm interpreting you wrongly here, but that reads to me like saying a rail service carries "reasonable" passenger numbers - could mean anything.

Does "Enough to keep a strategic reserve fleet working for a few years post-strike"

They're definitely outnumbered by anyone with the skills to work on internal combustion engines.

And they will be busy battering the remaining classic cars, the tiny handful of classic lorries, and class 08s/37s back into shape. If the electronics in a modern car/truck have been fried and spare chips cannot be easily got at (being manufactured by a hostile state) then there's not a lot of use that a garage mechanic can do with it. If oil supplies become hard to get then that gives you another problem, whereas steam locomotives are a lot less fussy about what they burn.

So, take the combined capacity of them all, how many locomotives could they build in a year?

Who said anything about building locomotives? This is about a reserve of withdrawn locos to be used for a few years following an attack.

In a post attack scenario, the major question is "how many of them are dead"?

Just a hunch, but I wonder if a greater proportion of mechanics live in cities (i.e. targets) than boilersmiths do.

 

[randyrippley]

Who said anything about building locomotives? This is about a reserve of withdrawn locos to be used for a few years following an attack.

I refer you to the title of this thread:

"how would you build a modern steam/non-electric train?"

And there is no reserve of withdrawn locos, so there would have to be a new build

 

[Irascible]

Lots of unhardened electronic components would be fried.

If they're not powered & even a little shielded ( in a metal case, for instance ) then perhaps not. I think disconnecting things before a nuclear strike might save a fair bit, it'd be a lot less hassle to go through a startup procedure after an emergency shutdown than replacing everything.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Surely a mechanical DMU would be best? Maybe even something simple like a *ducks for cover* Class 230 without any power electronics or any of that?

 

[Mr. SW]

Cheap and easy to make, simple to look after, rugged.
Steam
Adaptable to work with any reasonable fuel, 2 outside cylinders, Walshaerts valve gear.
Large: 2-8-0, WD type.
Small: 0-6-0T, USA (SR) type with longer wheelbase for stability.
Diesel
Compressed-air engine start, mechanical transmission and any electrics fully sealed.
Large: Boxy twin-cab B-B
Small: 0-6-0 shunter, with longer wheelbase for stability.
DMMU

 

[Bevan Price]

Cheap and easy to make, simple to look after, rugged.
Steam
Adaptable to work with any reasonable fuel, 2 outside cylinders, Walshaerts valve gear.
Large: 2-8-0, WD type.
Small: 0-6-0T, USA (SR) type with longer wheelbase for stability.
Diesel
Compressed-air engine start, mechanical transmission and any electrics fully sealed.
Large: Boxy twin-cab B-B
Small: 0-6-0 shunter, with longer wheelbase for stability.
DMMU

Forget about building new locos. First you need to build a factory o make steel rails.........

 

[stuu]

Forget about building new locos. First you need to build a factory o make steel rails.........

Unlikely, the vast majority of existing rails wouldn't be damaged even in a worst case nuclear war. Anything that did damage the entire network to that extent is likely to make the whole issue entirely moot, as there won't be anyone around to worry about it

 

[Irascible]

If you can make a steam engine cylinder you can make a 2 stroke IC engine ( probably even a 4 stroke ) & you don't need skills to make a large high pressure vessel. Steam engines were simple & cheap to produce when we were making lots of them, things have changed.

 

[Krokodil]

I refer you to the title of this thread:

"how would you build a modern steam/non-electric train?"

And there is no reserve of withdrawn locos, so there would have to be a new build

The discussion had drifted onto "what if we had retained a strategic reserve?". I'll also point out that there is a reserve of steam locomotives in this country, kept in very good condition. Nothing "strategic" about it, mind.

If they're not powered & even a little shielded ( in a metal case, for instance ) then perhaps not. I think disconnecting things before a nuclear strike might save a fair bit, it'd be a lot less hassle to go through a startup procedure after an emergency shutdown than replacing everything.

Which you can only really do if that nice Mr Putin gives you some notice of a strike.

 

[CBlue]

And they will be busy battering the remaining classic cars, the tiny handful of classic lorries, and class 08s/37s back into shape. If the electronics in a modern car/truck have been fried and spare chips cannot be easily got at (being manufactured by a hostile state) then there's not a lot of use that a garage mechanic can do with it. If oil supplies become hard to get then that gives you another problem, whereas steam locomotives are a lot less fussy about what they burn.

However still far more of them in relative terms - and modifying a modern vehicle so it doesn't need control electronics (will it run clean and smoothly? no, but it'll run and drive) isn't necessarily that difficult. In the same relative terms, far more people know how to operate a road vehicle than a steam engine.

 

[randyrippley]

The discussion had drifted onto "what if we had retained a strategic reserve?".

Well............I certainly hadn't noticed that. You might have been trying to throw the discussion of course, but you were a lone voice

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Nov 2023 ==

However still far more of them in relative terms - and modifying a modern vehicle so it doesn't need control electronics (will it run clean and smoothly? no, but it'll run and drive) isn't necessarily that difficult.

But where will the kit come from to do the conversion? You'd need to strip out the fuel injection system and either replace it with a 1960s non-electronic version, or a carburettor. Anything with variable valve timing couldn't be converted. Nor could anything with electrically controlled brakes or steering.
In reality there would be a premium on cars like Morris Marinas and Ford Cortinas. In fact the body panel presses for much of the old Leyland range exist under the auspices of British Motor Heritage, so rebodying an old wreck may be possible. Simplest car to put back into production might be a chassis-based design like the Triumph Herald, or one of its plastic bodied kit car derivatives. Car engines of that generation can be fixed with hammer, spanner and chisels..........not electronic diagnostics

 

[HSTEd]

Forget about building new locos. First you need to build a factory o make steel rails.........

The vast majority of the inventory of steel rails wouldn't be destroyed by any reasonable attack, they are highly rugged and stuck in the countryside for the most part.
Given the collapse in traffic, the existing stockpile of rails would be sufficient to maintain limited freight operations for many many years.

Locomotives would have to be built in the nearer term, likely using parts from locomotives that have been disabled by lack of parts et al. For example reusing the engine blocks from diesels etc.

 

[Speed43125]

But where will the kit come from to do the conversion? You'd need to strip out the fuel injection system and either replace it with a 1960s non-electronic version, or a carburettor. Anything with variable valve timing couldn't be converted. Nor could anything with electrically controlled brakes or steering.
In reality there would be a premium on cars like Morris Marinas and Ford Cortinas. In fact the body panel presses for much of the old Leyland range exist under the auspices of British Motor Heritage, so rebodying an old wreck may be possible. Simplest car to put back into production might be a chassis-based design like the Triumph Herald, or one of its plastic bodied kit car derivatives. Car engines of that generation can be fixed with hammer, spanner and chisels..........not electronic diagnostics

Alternately something like a Diesel Mercedes w123/W124 which once gotten going will keep running with no outside power until they run out of fuel.

 

[Irascible]

Which you can only really do if that nice Mr Putin gives you some notice of a strike.

At minimum you get a few minutes ( as a cold war kid I should really remember how many, but frankly I've spent decades trying to forget - I think it was 2 or 3 for us but launch sites are further away now ) - more likely quite a lot more notice that something is going to happen. If I'm in range of a bomb I'm not going to a shelter, I don't want to live through it anyway, trying to make sure as much survives as possible sounds a reasonable way to go.

 

[HSTEd]

Which you can only really do if that nice Mr Putin gives you some notice of a strike.

A single phone call to the National Grid control room and they will start flipping circuit breakers to open.

The few minutes of warning is enough to collapse the grid if you want to.

It's the same procedure they would use in the case of a catastrophic Coronal Mass Ejection (CME) warning.

 

[mike57]

Assuming the attack is a devastating one, with multiple strikes I think this problem divides into two parts:

In the immediate aftermath anything electronic will be fried, but old simple stuff may survive in a state that it can be reused, but in terms of any meaningfull rail service I dont think there would be enough organisation left to run it. The major cities would quickly degenerate into lawless wastelands. Those who could leave would do so, moving into remote rural areas where survival would be more likely. National grid, gone, refinaries, chemical works etc, destroyed, and who is going to man them even if they do survive. Food will run out, no clean water, disease will follow. Because of changes even since the cold war there would be no way of supporting large urban populations, even if law and order could be restored

Going forwards any use of railways would probably be on a local ad hoc basis to move stuff around the immediate area. Fuel beyond wood and possibly coal or bio diesel will be a finite resource, and most peoples major concern will be to grow enough food to survive. So if any use was made of the railways it would probably use stuff from the preserved networks. I assume a steam engine could be run on wood as long as you didnt mind having limited power. Bio-diesel is fairly easy to make, but you wouldn't be spending precious time and effort unless there was a compelling reason to do it. Crops are going to be grown for food. I suspect making effective weapons for protection would be a much higher priority for those who have the skills that might apply to building railway locos.

Longer term I would imagine once surviving stuff is no longer adequate some construction will begin, but its going to be very much "the dawn of railways" level, simple, slow, with the sort of fabrication that could be accomplished by a small group of people with simple tools, no welding, back to rivets, and will probably be steam driven because you can raise steam with a wide range of fuels. The other thing is you need a critical mass of population to be able support technology, you need specialists, and you can only support these if you have enough food and other resources.

So my view, you could probably get back to a mid Victorian level with maybe some additional enhancements, but to reach the current level of tech would require a lot of things to be in place first.

Food for thought: You could make a simple triode valve with equipment which could be cobbled together from salvage, one person with the knowledge and resources could do it, to make microchips and associated stuff that we take for granted requires a scale of production which would not be possible.

For anyone who wants to see one possible vision of a post nuclear future, read Lucifers Hammer by Niven and Pournelle, it refers to an asteroid stike, but I reckon it could apply to a devastating nuclear stike as well.

So modern steam in this context, well one hopes the knowledge wouldn't be lost, but you would probably end up with something closer to Rocket than Red Devil.

 

[HSTEd]

Longer term I would imagine once surviving stuff is no longer adequate some construction will begin, but its going to be very much "the dawn of railways" level, simple, slow, with the sort of fabrication that could be accomplished by a small group of people with simple tools, no welding, back to rivets, and will probably be steam driven because you can raise steam with a wide range of fuels. The other thing is you need a critical mass of population to be able support technology, you need specialists, and you can only support these if you have enough food and other resources.

Ultimately I expect enough arc welders would survive to make riveting a non-entity.
They aren't particularly fragile and the vast majority of the portable arc welder supply is not operational (and htus susceptible to EMP effects) at any give time.

A hand wound alternator with a waterwheel will make an arc welder into a 10x more productive machine than riveting!

As for steam driven, I would suspect the answer would be wood-gas powered internal combustion locomotives. A low performance internal combustion engine with an onboard wood (coal etc) gasifier is just as flexible as a steam engine, and has much lower maintenance requirements.

EDIT:
Beyond arc welding, a homopolar generator allows you to build a spot welder with no electronics in it at all!
That would be more directly comparable to riveting than arc welding, but remain many times more productive