South Wales 'Metro': speculation regarding funding and how the project should proceed

[Signal_Box]

Moderator note: Split from

South Wales 'Metro' updates

I thought it would be worthwhile to start a discussion on the South Wales 'Metro'. Basically, this is the scheme to enhance transport links across south east Wales. One of the key issues that needs to be addressed is what form of transport will be used on the Cardiff Valley lines network -...

www.railforums.co.uk

Some news.

£50 million investment for Cardiff Crossrail

Well £50m will buy a few extra trains where’s the rest coming from ?

 

[Anonymous10]

Well £50m will buy a few extra trains where’s the rest coming from ?

Well they never said new build now did they

 

[Krokodil]

Well £50m will buy a few extra trains where’s the rest coming from ?

£50m will probably write the feasibility study.

 

[Signal_Box]

£50m will probably write the feasibility study.

I was being optimistic for a change, but you’re probably right !

 

[takno]

When this was first announced it was with a matching amount from the Welsh Government, so £100m in total. As long as they don't get any HS2 contractors involved, that should go a good way towards the Central to Bay branch tram line.

100m doesn't buy you much on-street tram either. Edinburgh just spend nearly 100m/mile laying track that they'd already bought down streets which had already had half the utilities diverted to run trams they already owned

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

100m doesn't buy you much on-street tram either. Edinburgh just spend nearly 100m/mile laying track that they'd already bought down streets which had already had half the utilities diverted to run trams they already owned

True, although the Edinburgh project was notoriously mismanaged. The short link from Central to the bay branch is considerably less than a mile though. Even using Edinburgh math and allowing for inflation £100 m should cover it.

I think it will be far harder to justify the cost of linking up the bay and dock branches. It doesn't strike me as as a useful route and it would be competeing with far more direct bus services from the east of Cardiff into the city centre.

 

[Signal_Box]

When this was first announced it was with a matching amount from the Welsh Government, so £100m in total. As long as they don't get any HS2 contractors involved, that should go a good way towards the Central to Bay branch tram line.

How much did Edinburgh tram cost ? Before and after it went massively over budget, just like CVL. The 3rd rate local councillor rejects in the assembly will balls of up no doubt.

 

[Dai Corner]

How much did Edinburgh tram cost ? Before and after it went massively over budget, just like CVL. The 3rd rate local councillor rejects in the assembly will balls of up no doubt.

It does seem a lot of money to save passengers for the Bay leaving Cardiff Central by the south entrance and catching a bus, or in many cases changing at Queen Street.

 

[Signal_Box]

It does seem a lot of money to save passengers for the Bay leaving Cardiff Central by the south entrance and catching a bus, or in many cases changing at Queen Street.

I agree it doesn’t appear to be value for money, but TfW need to justify the horrific expense of the tram conversion of the majority of the valley lines.

 

[CapitalStar378]

It does seem a lot of money to save passengers for the Bay leaving Cardiff Central by the south entrance and catching a bus, or in many cases changing at Queen Street.

It's the first phase of a much bigger scheme, if it comes to fruition.

 

[Dai Corner]

In which case construction shouldn't start until it's fully funded. Otherwise it's a white elephant.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I agree it doesn’t appear to be value for money, but TfW need to justify the horrific expense of the tram conversion of the majority of the valley lines.

I thought Queen Street to Cardiff Bay was the only part of the existing ValleyLines infrustructure undergoing full tram conversion of the infrustructure, with the rest expected to retain heavy rail signalling? I don't think any 750v DC OHLE is currently planned either, with the 398s expected to launch with 25kv and battery only.

It's the first phase of a much bigger scheme, if it comes to fruition.

In which case construction shouldn't start until it's fully funded. Otherwise it's a white elephant.

I think there is something to be said for incrementally building something big in smaller, afordable, chunks myself. Delivery of a huge project (like HS2 or the full SE Wales Metro) will take a number of years anyway and that gives time for inflation to run faster than you budgeted for and you find you don't have enough money left to finish the project anyway (like the Ebbw Vale branch capacity project for Ebbw Vale - Newport which was unable to deliver in full). Plus you're even more unlikely to be able to fund a big budget project without a very big loan, in which case you've done yourself a mischeif in future years as now you're losing a proportion of revenue which could otherwise have gone in the investment pot to paying the interest on the debt.

What you do need to do is have a clear idea of the overall vision in full before you start and make sure your detailed designs for the early phases accomodate the rest. This is the issue I have with HS2 - they didn't have a sufficently long-term vision for public transport across GB as a whole and as such the whole of Birmingham Curzon Street station is potentially abortive work.

Unfortunately, there are presumably some things - like depots - that have to be built big enough from the start and a minimum viable quantity of tram-trains to justify building that depot. Hence the class 398s spreading their wings across the Treherbert, Merthyr Tydfil and Aberdare (TAM) routes where tram-trains aren't needed (and, in my opinion, far less appropriate than a uniform fleet of 756s across all but Coryton to Cardiff Bay would have been).

 

[Snow1964]

Since getting £100m of Government funding. Seems WSB and RLP consultants have now been appointed

Cardiff Council has secured £100m in government funding to develop a new public transport system in the city.

Its proposed Cardiff Crossrail will create a tram link from west Cardiff, through the Cardiff Bay area and connect with a new Cardiff Parkway station on the South Wales Main Line.

The council has appointed construction consultancies WSP and Rider Levett Bucknall (RLB) to provide programme and cost management services.

The project team will work in partnership with Transport for Wales on delivery of the scheme, which is funded by the UK government’s levelling up fund and match funded by Welsh government.

Over the next five years, consulting engineer WSP will work with cost consultant RLB to provide support to deliver phase one of the programme. These services will include programme management, cost analysis and cost management. WSP will also support Cardiff Council in appointing a lead design organisation that will manage the design integration of each project area.

The WSP and RLB team will share offices with Cardiff Council staff to support collaboration.

WSP project director Steve Wharton said: “Transformative rail infrastructure holds significant potential to drive economic growth and increase prosperity within our communities. Cardiff Crossrail is a fantastic project to be involved in and we’re looking forward to bringing our expert local knowledge and world-leading light-rail capability to help make it a reality.”

Andy Stamps, national head of infrastructure at RLB UK, added: “We know the role that great transportation systems play as drivers of regeneration, economic growth and social mobility of regions. Working with the teams at WSP, Transport for Wales and Cardiff Council, we are looking forward to helping provide a robust rail system that will add social value to the Cardiff area.”

WSP and RLB join Cardiff Crossrail team

Cardiff Council has commissioned consultants to work up its plans to build a rapid transit system.

www.theconstructionindex.co.uk

 

[Smwrff]

It does seem a lot of money to save passengers for the Bay leaving Cardiff Central by the south entrance and catching a bus, or in many cases changing at Queen Street.

The point of it is to become the central section of Crossrail which then expands west (initially to Radyr but then replaced to Creigiau and beyond) and east (initially to Pierhead Street - then to Cardiff East (Newport Road/Rover Way) and possibly on to Cardiff Parkway)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Feb 2024 ==

Two more links - one from Callaghan Square to Cardiff Queen St - the other from Coryton/Velindre to Radyr - would then become the Circle Line.

This is Cardiff Councils plan - aligned with Metro plans but not officially part of them.....yet.