Would it be impossible to electrify the Hope Valley line?

[Speed43125]

and why would Beacon Rail invest well over £100m on a stop gap solution?

Because in Britain we have a proud history of stop-gap solutions lasting around 4 decades in continual service!

 

[eldomtom2]

really? why do you say that?

Because the railway as with all industries should be ditching fossil fuels as quickly as possible?

and why would Beacon Rail invest well over £100m on a stop gap solution?

Businesses do not always make the right choices.

 

[Bald Rick]

Because the railway as with all industries should be ditching fossil fuels as quickly as possible?

Ah, so in your opinon they are a stop gap solution.

Businesses do not always make the right choices.

Not always. But I suspect Beacon Rail have rather more experience in this matter than anyone on this forum.

 

[Justin Smith]

Justin Smith said:
I really am not a fan of the Bi Mode alternative to doing a full decent electrification. It may be easier and cheaper in the short term, but more complexity and expense and less efficient in the long term.

And yet railways all over europe are buying battery bi modes as a much more effective and efficient way of getting electric trains. Including those already in service in this country, with comfirmed plans for more.

Are all these railways wrong?

They're all trying to do it on the cheap short term over long term, the modern disease.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Nov 2023 ==

Ely-King's Lynn hasn't any tunnels or major gradients, which is why Hull-Selby will rank ahead of the Hope Valley line for priority.

I accept the argument about tunnels making electrification more expensive, but gradients ?
Surely the existence of gradients strengthens the argument for electrification. Lighter more powerful trains with the potential for regenerative braking making them even more efficient ?

 

[Trainbike46]

Because the railway as with all industries should be ditching fossil fuels as quickly as possible?

Businesses do not always make the right choices.

Ah, so in your opinon they are a stop gap solution.

Not always. But I suspect Beacon Rail have rather more experience in this matter than anyone on this forum.

I'm assuming this is a reference to them investing in the class 99 locomotives? I can't find any other UK bimodes on their fleet list, but may well have missed them.

Diesel bimodes are obviously an improvement over diesel only traction immediately, an example of this is LNER's diesel use post-80x introduction. If designed to be easily adaptable to full electric in the future if full electrification happens, as the 80x and the FLIRTS are, they are a pretty safe investment for ROSCOs, as they are flexible for redeployment if needed...

I agree with Eldomtom2 that we should really be moving away from diesel as fast as possible (while moving traffic from less sustainable modes to the railway), and think we need to use all available tools, including BEMUs, full electrification, etc.

About businesses making the wrong choices, it is not looking good for Beacon rail's mk 5A coaches...

 

[Chester1]

I'm assuming this is a reference to them investing in the class 99 locomotives? I can't find any other UK bimodes on their fleet list, but may well have missed them.

Diesel bimodes are obviously an improvement over diesel only traction immediately, an example of this is LNER's diesel use post-80x introduction. If designed to be easily adaptable to full electric in the future if full electrification happens, as the 80x and the FLIRTS are, they are a pretty safe investment for ROSCOs, as they are flexible for redeployment if needed...

I agree with Eldomtom2 that we should really be moving away from diesel as fast as possible (while moving traffic from less sustainable modes to the railway), and think we need to use all available tools, including BEMUs, full electrification, etc.

About businesses making the wrong choices, it is not looking good for Beacon rail's mk 5A coaches...

Electrifying most lines by 2050 isn't a realistic option. It should be but we are still waiting for MML, Wigan and Stalybridge electrification. If Hope Valley is put high up the waiting list then skipping the tunnels is an obvious way to save time and money. No pure EMUs will run on the route anyway.

 

[Trainbike46]

Electrifying most lines by 2050 isn't a realistic option. It should be but we are still waiting for MML, Wigan and Stalybridge electrification. If Hope Valley is put high up the waiting list then skipping the tunnels is an obvious way to save time and money. No pure EMUs will run on the route anyway.

I agree, and that is why I said "Use all available tools"

I think we need a region based priority list for electrifications, and then have regional teams working on progressing that - though that is clearly for a different thread

 

[eldomtom2]

Ah, so in your opinon they are a stop gap solution.

"In my opinion" is implicit in most statements people make.

 

[Bald Rick]

"In my opinion" is implicit in most statements people make.

With delicious irony, that statement is, of course, your opinion.

 

[JKF]

What is the efficiency difference/loss using battery vs direct supply from OLE? It will cost more to run a battery train as more energy will be needed to compensate for loss during conversion, but that is offset by the cost of infrastructure (and possibly transmission losses in OLE).

I guess there could also be an element of smart charging such as doing so overnight or during windy days, which could reduce costs.

 

[Bald Rick]

What is the efficiency difference/loss using battery vs direct supply from OLE?

AIUI, low single digit %, from OLE to traction motor, allowing for better regen capcity of batteyr trains.

 

[Justin Smith]

What is the efficiency difference/loss using battery vs direct supply from OLE? It will cost more to run a battery train as more energy will be needed to compensate for loss during conversion, but that is offset by the cost of infrastructure (and possibly transmission losses in OLE).

I guess there could also be an element of smart charging such as doing so overnight or during windy days, which could reduce costs.

There is also having to lug those heavy batteries around, plus is there seriously any possibility that a battery powered train could ever be as powerful as one using electricity from the OHL ?
How long would batteries last anyway ? I hear some rather hard to believe estimates as to how long car batteries will last*, but even those admit there is a fall off in their capacity as they age.
Last, what is the current (pun intended ! ) range of a battery powered train and at what % power compared to it "on the juice" ?

* Are these really true ? And if they are how come laptop Lithium Ion batteries don't last more than a year or two !

 

[ac6000cw]

They're all trying to do it on the cheap short term over long term, the modern disease.

It's not just a modern issue - just after WW1 the Great Eastern Railway seriously looked into electrifying the intensive suburban services out of Liverpool Street. They didn't because the capital cost was too high in relation to their finances, and instead worked out how to make steam operation much more efficient (the 'Jazz' service, as it became known, with up to 24 steam loco-hauled suburban trains per hour in & out of Liverpool Street).

The LNER eventually started electrification work in the late 1930s (when low-interest government loans were available as an unemployment reduction measure) but the first part wasn't completed until 1949 due to WW2 - so 30 years after the GER might have done it if it had the money...

 

[Bald Rick]

There is also having to lug those heavy batteries around, plus is there seriously any possibility that a battery powered train could ever be as powerful as one using electricity from the OHL ?
How long would batteries last anyway ? I hear some rather hard to believe estimates as to how long car batteries will last*, but even those admit there is a fall off in their capacity as they age.
Last, what is the current (pun intended ! ) range of a battery powered train and at what % power compared to it "on the juice" ?

* Are these really true ? And if they are how come laptop Lithium Ion batteries don't last more than a year or two !

A lot to get though here.

Car EV batteries last longer than laptop / phone etc as they have battery management systems and (crucially) thermal management. They are also rarely fully charged / discharged every day, and it is the number of charging cycles that determines life, not time or distance (although obviously there is a relationship). Train traction batteries (obviously) have thermal management, but crucially are typically Lithium Titanate (LiTo) rather than Litium Ion; LiTo batteries have a much longer life with charging cycles - there are suggestions it is effectively unlimited.

Weight. It‘s a non argument. A typical 4 car EMU weighs around 160 tonnes. A typical battery pack that could power it at full power for an hour (which in practice means 4 hours in service for a typical EMU) Would add about 8 tonnes. In many EMUs, it would replace the ballast weight on board already. Its certainly lighter than a couple of engines, alternators, exhausts, cooling systems, fuel tanks each with a couple of tonnes of fuel in, etc.

Yes battery trains can operate at full power, and can be as powerful as a straight EMU. Some may be limited, but that is a specification choice, not technology. Traction motors can’t tell where the electrons come from.

Range - that depends on the size of the battery, naturally. Several on the market with 80-100km, Reasonable to assume this will increase (my guess is double) in relatively short order once service experience is gained.

 

[Killingworth]

It's not just a modern issue - just after WW1 the Great Eastern Railway seriously looked into electrifying the intensive suburban services out of Liverpool Street. They didn't because the capital cost was too high in relation to their finances, and instead worked out how to make steam operation much more efficient (the 'Jazz' service, as it became known, with up to 24 steam loco-hauled suburban trains per hour in & out of Liverpool Street).

The LNER eventually started electrification work in the late 1930s (when low-interest government loans were available as an unemployment reduction measure) but the first part wasn't completed until 1949 due to WW2 - so 30 years after the GER might have done it if it had the money...

The North Eastern Railway was planning to electrify the ECML before WW1 with the Newport-Shildon line as a test bed operational from 1916. Class EF1 locomotives lasted into British Railways ownership, just. Prototype mainline locomotive, Class EE1 No 13, was designed to run with a 14 carriage train over gradients that it would encounter as far as Edinburgh Waverley at speeds of at least 65 mph. Completed in 1922 that avenue of development was brought to an end by the grouping in 1923. It survived, unused, to be numbered 26600 by British Railways.

 

[Trainbike46]

A lot to get though here.

Car EV batteries last longer than laptop / phone etc as they have battery management systems and (crucially) thermal management. They are also rarely fully charged / discharged every day, and it is the number of charging cycles that determines life, not time or distance (although obviously there is a relationshio). Train traction batteries (obviously) have thermal management, but crucially are typically Lithium Titanate (LiTo) rather than Litium Ion; LiTo batteries have a much longer life with charging cycles - there are suggestions it is effectively unlimited.

Weight. It‘s a non argument. A typical 4 car EMU weighs around 160 tonnes. A typical battery pack that could power it at full power for an hour (which in practice means 4 hours in service for a typical EMU) Would add about 8 tonnes. In many EMUs, it would replace the ballast weight on board already. Its certainly lighter than a couple of engines, alternators, exhausts, cooling systems, fuel tanks each with a couple of tonnes of fuel in, etc.

Yes battery trains can operate at full power, and can be as powerful as a straight EMU. Some may be limited, but that is a specification choice, not technology. Traction motors can’t tell where the electrons come from.

Range - that depends on the size of the battery, naturally. Several on the market with 80-100km, Reasonable to assume this will increase (my guess is double) in relatively short order once service experience is gained.

Just to add to this, there is no technical reason why you couldn't build a unit with 200 or 300 km (or more) range if the service required it - you would simply specify more batteries, at the cost of the unit getting a bit heavier and (if going for very long range) possibly a slight loss of passenger space.

more electrification is necessary and desirable, but BEMUs will be part of the decarbonisation of the railways

 

[Justin Smith]

A lot to get though here.

Car EV batteries last longer than laptop / phone etc as they have battery management systems and (crucially) thermal management. They are also rarely fully charged / discharged every day, and it is the number of charging cycles that determines life, not time or distance (although obviously there is a relationship). Train traction batteries (obviously) have thermal management, but crucially are typically Lithium Titanate (LiTo) rather than Litium Ion; LiTo batteries have a much longer life with charging cycles - there are suggestions it is effectively unlimited.

Weight. It‘s a non argument. A typical 4 car EMU weighs around 160 tonnes. A typical battery pack that could power it at full power for an hour (which in practice means 4 hours in service for a typical EMU) Would add about 8 tonnes. In many EMUs, it would replace the ballast weight on board already. Its certainly lighter than a couple of engines, alternators, exhausts, cooling systems, fuel tanks each with a couple of tonnes of fuel in, etc.

Yes battery trains can operate at full power, and can be as powerful as a straight EMU. Some may be limited, but that is a specification choice, not technology. Traction motors can’t tell where the electrons come from.

Range - that depends on the size of the battery, naturally. Several on the market with 80-100km, Reasonable to assume this will increase (my guess is double) in relatively short order once service experience is gained.

Thanks for that.
Can I just clarify something here, you are saying it is possible to build a battery EMU with the same power to weight as a straight 25kV electric ?
And with the range to do a whole days work ?

 

[eldomtom2]

One thing that should be noted is that rail companies around the world certainly aren't acting as if battery locos are capable of performance on par with OHLE locos...

 

[Krokodil]

Ah, so in your opinon they are a stop gap solution.

Fossil fuels are on their way out. That's government policy.

Of course our government (whatever colour tie they happen to be wearing) is particularly incompetent at enacting its policies so "temporary" tends to be a long time in this country.

 

[Bald Rick]

Can I just clarify something here, you are saying it is possible to build a battery EMU with the same power to weight as a straight 25kV electric ?

Not the same, but within a few %, yes. Within the range of variability from passenger loading.

And with the range to do a whole days work ?

That’s certainly possible, but pretty unlikely in the near term.

One thing that should be noted is that rail companies around the world certainly aren't acting as if battery locos are capable of performance on par with OHLE locos...

I wasnt sugesting they were.

Fossil fuels are on their way out. That's government policy.

Actually, not quite. Government policy is net zero (for what it’s worth, which in my opinion is not much). The detail of the policy makes it clear that this still involves fossil fuels, eg Gas power stations with carbon capture and offsetting to gain the ‘net zero’ position.

 

[Kingston Dan]

Actually, not quite. Government policy is net zero (for what it’s worth, which in my opinion is not much). The detail of the policy makes it clear that this still involves fossil fuels, eg Gas power stations with carbon capture and offsetting to gain the ‘net zero’ position.

We'll see in the King's Speech if that remains. The noises coming out of no10 suggest that Sunak actually believes the guff about a war on motorists and net zero is getting in the way of petrol heads doing their petrol based things. We've already seen £20+ billion borrowing allocated to HS2 phase 2 switched to roads programmes so my expectation is that we'll see full on fossil fuel lobby policies being announced.

 

[eldomtom2]

Actually, not quite. Government policy is net zero (for what it’s worth, which in my opinion is not much). The detail of the policy makes it clear that this still involves fossil fuels, eg Gas power stations with carbon capture and offsetting to gain the ‘net zero’ position.

Of course, no one serious actually believes carbon capture is a practical method of net zero...

 

[Justin Smith]

We'll see in the King's Speech if that remains. The noises coming out of no10 suggest that Sunak actually believes the guff about a war on motorists and net zero is getting in the way of petrol heads doing their petrol based things. We've already seen £20+ billion borrowing allocated to HS2 phase 2 switched to roads programmes so my expectation is that we'll see full on fossil fuel lobby policies being announced.

Sunak's much vaunted (and in my view welcome) about turn on the last date one can buy a new petrol or diesel car is not quite what it seems.
AFAIK there will be a requirement for 80% of cars sold to be electric by that date, which effectively means not many petrol or diesel cars will be available to buy and/or they will be very expensive as they will be subsidising the sale of each manufacturers' electric cars.
Typical politician.