fixed penalty notice

[nicj]

bit of a complicated one but would appreciate ANY advice as I am stressing.

My daughter had her phone stolen on her 3rd day at uni while out in Sheffield city centre. She wanted to come home and get her old phone and different ID (as her old ID and bank card were also in her phone case - it's been a nightmare!)

Anyway I bought her a train ticket online with her student railcard. She got stopped by an inspector who wanted to see her railcard but she didn't have it as she didn't have a phone to show it on so she gave her details and said we would get sent an email asking for proof. We have since sent that off (screenshot of her railcard). Since then we have received a Fixed Penalty notice for not having a ticket for part of her journey (she did as she had a return trip booked from our home town to Sheffield) so I'm not sure what is going on now. They have fined her £100 + fare of £6. We have emailed to query it but heard nothing back and today is the last day to pay the fine so I don't know what to do?

Do we pay it and then try and get it back?! HELP! my daughter (and me) are stressing - she doesn't want to go to court over something that she didn't even do!

 

[jfollows]

When your daughter was stopped, did she have the ticket you'd bought for her available to show the inspector? Are you saying that she showed the ticket, the inspector asked for the railcard and she was then unable to show the railcard?

The Fixed Penalty notice should describe an appeal process, does it and have you submitted an appeal or was your email query something less formal?

EDIT Also which company issued the Fixed Penalty notice?

We can give advice, I'm sure, but it's important to establish and understand some details first.

 

[nicj]

she was able to show the ticket on a phone that she had borrowed from a friend to travel with as I emailed it to her but she didn't have her railcard app (she had a screen shot on the phone but he wouldn't accept that)

But the FPN is referring to an unpaid ticket for part of her journey which I don't understand at all as she had a return ticket to Sheffield.

The FPN does not refer to an appeal process at all, it just says we have 14 days from date of the letter to pay and the date of the letter was 16 October so no formal appeal submitted as we have not been given that option?! We have just emailed them from the original letter asking for proof of railcard and then when I got this letter on Wednesday last week we emailed again with proof of ticket but we have heard nothing back and today is the deadline.

I will probably just pay it as I don't want my daughter stressing about this, she went through enough when she was mugged without needing this on top. I was just wondering if I would be able to get it back once paid?!

 

[Deafdoggie]

Technically, if she held a railcard discounted ticket and didn't have a railcard, then she didn't have a valid ticket.
It might be helpful if you can upload the paperwork, with personal details and reference numbers obscured.

 

[jfollows]

If it's East Midland Trains then the process including appeal process is described at https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/media/780/download?inline

What do I do if I’m issued with a Penalty Fares Notice?
You have 21 days starting the day after the date of issue to pay or appeal the notice via the address that is shown on your notice. A Penalty Fare is £100 plus the price of the full single fare applicable for your intended journey. However, if it is paid within 21 days, the Penalty Fare is reduced to £50 plus the price of the single fare applicable.
Appeals are dealt with independently of East Midlands Railway and all appeals with be considered on a case by case basis. Please send appeals directly to Penalty Services Ltd online or at the postal address shown on the reverse of the notice within 21 days of the date of issue. Appeals will not be heard over the telephone and late appeals with only be considered in exceptional circumstances.
If you fail to pay or appeal within the 21 days, further action may be taken, resulting in additional costs being applied.
If payment is not made, East Midlands Railway reserves the right to recoup losses to the company through the Magistrates’ Courts under the Regulations of Railways Act 1889 or Railway Byelaws.
Please ensure that you quote your reference number on all correspondence.

 

[nicj]

If it's East Midland Trains then the process including appeal process is described at https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/media/780/download?inline

no it's Northern Trains

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Technically, if she held a railcard discounted ticket and didn't have a railcard, then she didn't have a valid ticket.
It might be helpful if you can upload the paperwork, with personal details and reference numbers obscured.

but she did have a railcard but her phone was stolen and we have provided evidence of that since. We have even included the crime reference number as the theft was reported to the police.

 

[Haywain]

If it's East Midland Trains then the process including appeal process is described at https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/media/780/download?inline

A fixed penalty is not a Penalty Fare.

 

[jfollows]

no it's Northern Trains

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/legal/fines-penalties describes the process

 

[nicj]

here is a copy of the FPN - removed and added further down thread

 

[jfollows]

So you are able to make a formal appeal within 14 days of the notice, are you not?

• Representations regarding a Fixed Penalty Notice must be made within 14 days of the date of our letter making the offer of a Fixed Penalty Notice. They must be made in writing but can be sent by post or email. Please make sure that you include your details and the reference number from the notice.

Email: drpu@northernrailway.co.uk
Post: DRPU, Northern Trains Limited, FREEPOST NEA 3188, Bradford, BD1 1BR

If so, you could choose to pay the discounted rate now also, and appeal on the basis of having a valid railcard but being unable to show it at the time, see https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...572570/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf

1. If you are travelling with a Railcard discounted Ticket and are unable to present the Railcard when asked by the staff or authorised agents of a Train Company, you will be treated as having joined a train without a valid Ticket and Conditions 9.1 – 9.5 will apply.
2. 8.6 However, if you were unable to present the Railcard because you had forgotten to carry it on that particular journey or mislaid it, the Train Company concerned will refund any fare or Penalty Fare paid in accordance with Condition 10.
3. 8.7 In order to claim such a refund, you will need to contact the customer service department of the Train Company that charged you the additional fare or Penalty Fare, providing the full details of your Railcard, together with the additional Tickets you have purchased or any Penalty Fares notices. A maximum of one such claim will be considered in any 12-month period.

if you are successful in your appeal you should get the penalty refunded, as above, which was one of your original questions.

 

[AlterEgo]

Where was she travelling from and to, *exactly*?

*Exactly* what ticket was held?

*Exactly* where was she stopped, and on which train?

And for which part of the journey did she supposedly not have a ticket?

 

[Haywain]

here is a copy of the FPN

The name and address is still visible on the letter. I suggest that you remove it and save it in a way that does not allow the details to be visible.

 

[nicj]

the website says this:

• Representations regarding a Fixed Penalty Notice must be made within 14 days of the date of our letter making the offer of a Fixed Penalty Notice. They must be made in writing but can be sent by post or email. Please make sure that you include your details and the reference number from the notice.

but we sent an email last wednesday and haven't heard back from them yet. Today is the last day to pay the fine.

 

[AlterEgo]

So you are able to make a formal appeal within 14 days of the notice, are you not?

No, there is no formal appeal process, just a deadline to make representations against it, in the same way any other out of court settlement is structured.

 

[nicj]

The name and address is still visible on the letter. I suggest that you remove it and save it in a way that does not allow the details to be visible.

how weird - it wasn't showing for me as I scribbled it out

 

[Haywain]

So you are able to make a formal appeal within 14 days of the notice, are you not?

If so, you could choose to pay the discounted rate now also, and appeal on the basis of having a valid railcard but being unable to show it at the time, see https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...572570/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf


if you are successful in your appeal you should get the penalty refunded, as above, which was one of your original questions.

This is not a Penalty Fare - please stop suggesting that Penalty Fare procedures can be followed to resolve this.

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how weird - it wasn't showing for me as I scribbled it out

I was able to move your 'scribbles' and see the details.

 

[nicj]

Where was she travelling from and to, *exactly*?

*Exactly* what ticket was held?

*Exactly* where was she stopped, and on which train?

And for which part of the journey did she supposedly not have a ticket?

from Sheffield to St Neots same day return student railcard 16-25. She was stopped on the Doncaster - Sheffield part of the journey and this is what they are referring to

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This is not a Penalty Fare - please stop suggesting that Penalty Fare procedures can be followed to resolve this.

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I was able to move your 'scribbles' and see the details.

oh ok ...learn something new every day. not sure why you would want to do that but ok lol

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copy of FPN with details taken out

 

[Haywain]

not sure why you would want to do that but ok

Just checking, after it was highlighted with another poster recently.

from Sheffield to St Neots same day return student railcard 16-25. She was stopped on the Doncaster - Sheffield part of the journey and this is what they are referring to

To be clear, she had travelled from Sheffield to St Neots to pick up the replacement phone and ID, and was stopped between Doncaster and Sheffield on her way back with those items? If that's the case, why was she unable to show the railcard?

 

[nicj]

Just checking, after it was highlighted with another poster recently.

To be clear, she had travelled from Sheffield to St Neots to pick up the replacement phone and ID, and was stopped between Doncaster and Sheffield on her way back with those items? If that's the case, why was she unable to show the railcard?

she didn't have the new sim card yet. she was waiting for delivery of that the next day to her halls in sheffield so wasn't able to actually use that phone if you get me (not then anyway)

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tbh I think i'm just going to pay it as she hasn't had an email from them this morning, I'm currently out of the country so can't check post. I will try and get it back if I can.

 

[Haywain]

she didn't have the new sim card yet. she was waiting for delivery of that the next day to her halls in sheffield so wasn't able to actually use that phone if you get me (not then anyway)

Thanks, that's clearer. However, I can now see why Northern may not consider this to be a 'forgotten' railcard, rather than a deliberate choice to travel without a railcard. That may be complicating things a bit. As you are concerned about the payment deadline, it may be worth you giving them a call and asking about how to proceed. We would normally advise to only communicate in writing, but in this case it may ease your mind about the deadline.

 

[nicj]

Thanks, that's clearer. However, I can now see why Northern may not consider this to be a 'forgotten' railcard, rather than a deliberate choice to travel without a railcard. That may be complicating things a bit. As you are concerned about the payment deadline, it may be worth you giving them a call and asking about how to proceed. We would normally advise to only communicate in writing, but in this case it may ease your mind about the deadline.

but when I call up it says the only option to speak to someone is if you have a court summons? otherwise it's email or post only...

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I have paid it. I will have to get my daughter now to wait for an email reply and go from there to see if we can claim it back.

 

[WesternLancer]

but when I call up it says the only option to speak to someone is if you have a court summons? otherwise it's email or post only...

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I have paid it. I will have to get my daughter now to wait for an email reply and go from there to see if we can claim it back.

I think under the circs it was probably best to do what you did and pay it to minimise consequences.

I suspect you can now get more advice on what options there are to do next from this forum as you now have more time to engage with Northern Trains without the pressure of the money demand deadline hanging over you.

It looks to me like your daughter may have made 2 rail trips (out from and back to Sheffield) both without being able to show a valid Railcard (due to the theft) - is this correct?

One trip could have been covered by the railways ' Forgotten Railcard Policy' that allows you to show proof once per year of having it, but not on you to show - but not 2 occasions per year. I am not sure how the Railcard T&Cs deal with stolen cards when they are on phone's that are stolen (physical cards can be replaced if evidence of the crime number is provided along with the receipt issued when card bought - but that probably has no relevance when it is a digital Railcard).

Water under the bridge but I suspect it would have been best to have bought her tickets for these 2 trips not with a Railcard discount until the phone replacement problem was sorted out.

Probably best that you get advice from forum expertise on how to now engage with Northern to see if any of this money spent on the penalty deadline can be recouped from them. Might bea case of writing to their customer services with an appeal to their better nature, but I am not sure what might work best.

But you will get good suggestions here.

Sorry to read how much hassle this has caused you and your daughter.

 

[fandroid]

I think the best bet, now that you have paid up, is to appeal via Northern's Customer Services. Set the whole thing out again and include all the paperwork again, asking for discretion to be given due to the unusual and difficult circumstances. If that falls on deaf ears it could be worth asking your MP to take up your daughter's case.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I'm guessing the theft was reported to the police? It can't do any harm to include the crime reference number in any correspondence you send to Northern.

 

[nicj]

I think under the circs it was probably best to do what you did and pay it to minimise consequences.

I suspect you can now get more advice on what options there are to do next from this forum as you now have more time to engage with Northern Trains without the pressure of the money demand deadline hanging over you.

It looks to me like your daughter may have made 2 rail trips (out from and back to Sheffield) both without being able to show a valid Railcard (due to the theft) - is this correct?

One trip could have been covered by the railways ' Forgotten Railcard Policy' that allows you to show proof once per year of having it, but not on you to show - but not 2 occasions per year. I am not sure how the Railcard T&Cs deal with stolen cards when they are on phone's that are stolen (physical cards can be replaced if evidence of the crime number is provided along with the receipt issued when card bought - but that probably has no relevance when it is a digital Railcard).

Water under the bridge but I suspect it would have been best to have bought her tickets for these 2 trips not with a Railcard discount until the phone replacement problem was sorted out.

Probably best that you get advice from forum expertise on how to now engage with Northern to see if any of this money spent on the penalty deadline can be recouped from them. Might bea case of writing to their customer services with an appeal to their better nature, but I am not sure what might work best.

But you will get good suggestions here.

Sorry to read how much hassle this has caused you and your daughter.

thanks... tbh I didn't even think... she was distraught and I just booked it without thinking about the implications!!

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I'm guessing the theft was reported to the police? It can't do any harm to include the crime reference number in any correspondence you send to Northern.

yes it was... we can do that for sure.

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I think the best bet, now that you have paid up, is to appeal via Northern's Customer Services. Set the whole thing out again and include all the paperwork again, asking for discretion to be given due to the unusual and difficult circumstances. If that falls on deaf ears it could be worth asking your MP to take up your daughter's case.

ok great thank you.. will do that

 

[WesternLancer]

thanks... tbh I didn't even think... she was distraught and I just booked it without thinking about the implications!!

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yes it was... we can do that for sure.

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ok great thank you.. will do that

I am sure that if you post up any draft you want to send to Northern about this, people will check it through for you if you think it would help (assuming she is aged over 18 tho in fact it will be your daughter who needs to send it, but you will be aware of that I'm sure).

 

[nicj]

UPDATE: Just to say that I paid the fine and this morning my daughter had an email to say that after receiving evidence of her railcard and ticket they are closing the matter down and no further action will be taken. They are also refunding the fine and ticket payment! hurrah!!

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thanks for all your advice and help!

 

[fandroid]

UPDATE: Just to say that I paid the fine and this morning my daughter had an email to say that after receiving evidence of her railcard and ticket they are closing the matter down and no further action will be taken. They are also refunding the fine and ticket payment! hurrah!!

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thanks for all your advice and help!

Brilliant!

We get a bit cynical on this sub-forum so it's nice to hear of cases where some appropriate compassion is shown by a railway company

 

[WesternLancer]

UPDATE: Just to say that I paid the fine and this morning my daughter had an email to say that after receiving evidence of her railcard and ticket they are closing the matter down and no further action will be taken. They are also refunding the fine and ticket payment! hurrah!!

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thanks for all your advice and help!

Really pleased to hear that - a better than expected outcome (but make sure your daughter keeps that e-mail and checks the refund comes through!)

I have to say a really bad experience to have had to endure - and all the ensuing probs - after being at University in a new city for 3 days - I just hope this is all now behind her and she can enjoy her 1st year and her studies in the way she no doubt wants to do!