What happens if your train departs early?

[Trumpers halt]

Travelling on the 0733 Kings Cross to Harrogate this morning. We thought we'd miss it but fortunately got there with 8 minutes to spare in the end.

It actually departed -2 as shown on RTT. What would happen if you arrived -1 and it had already gone?

 

[avid2424]

I fear sadly that it counts as not allowing enough time

Possibly no different to train doors being locked 40 seconds before departure or barriers/doors to platform being closed 2 minutes before departure or train starting from the far end of the platform be it planned or a late change of plan etc

 

[Surreytraveller]

You catch the next train

 

[Krokodil]

Catch the next train and claim delay repay.

 

[Trumpers halt]

Ah, so delay repay works for going too early as well. Didn't know that, thanks.

I only used a theoretical -1 as I knew there was a doors locked allowance but -2 was well outside that.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Interesting!

The train in question also seems to have departed slightly early from both Stevenage and Grantham.

 

[uglymonkey]

Perhaps the drivers watch/phone was wrong.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Perhaps the drivers watch/phone was wrong.

The day after the clocks have just changed?! Perish the thought!

 

[Trumpers halt]

Early out of Donny as well! She could be picking up claims all the way to Harrogate!

 

[Adrian1980uk]

I can't imagine you'd get anywhere with a delay reclaim for that, 2 minutes early would just be put down to you not allowing enough time if you missed it. 5 to 10 minutes early would be significant and would never happen anyway as the path wouldn't be there.

 

[sprunt]

I can't imagine you'd get anywhere with a delay reclaim for that, 2 minutes early would just be put down to you not allowing enough time if you missed it.

In places there are signs that say things like "Train doors close 60 seconds before departure". I'm not saying that's the case in King's Cross, but if it were then it seems reasonable to claim that getting there twice as long before departure is enough time.

 

[Krokodil]

Ah, so delay repay works for going too early as well. Didn't know that, thanks.

Think about it logically, if you miss a train because it departed early and arrive an hour late as a result, you have been delayed by an hour, haven't you?

I can't imagine you'd get anywhere with a delay reclaim for that, 2 minutes early would just be put down to you not allowing enough time if you missed it.

If it left 2 early the doors probably locked nearly 3 early. Some stations have minimum connection allowances of 5 minutes so a passenger making a legitimate connection that arrived on time may well miss it, particularly if less mobile.

 

[AdamWW]

I can't imagine you'd get anywhere with a delay reclaim for that, 2 minutes early would just be put down to you not allowing enough time if you missed it.

You're probably right but I don't see how this view is legitimate.

If they say doors may shut 40 seconds before departure I don't see how they can reasonably say "Oh well actually we shut them more than 2 minutes early but really you shouldn't have expected us to actually do something as difficult as waiting for the correct departure time and it's your fault for not getting there earlier".

Should trains ever leave early? No?
Will mistakes happen? Yes
Should the passenger be blamed in such circumstances? Not in my opinion.

If I missed a train because this happened I'd certainly push a claim as far as I could.

I've lived somewhere that I commuted from a station a few minutes walk away. I knew how long it took to get there. I usually cut it fine, getting to the platform 1 or 2 minutes before the doors shut. If the train had left early (it never did) I don't see what that should be mine and not the railway's problem.

(Not that Delay Repay would have got me much...)

 

[glasgowniteowl]

If they say doors may shut 40 seconds before departure I don't see how they can reasonably say "Oh well actually we shut them more than 2 minutes early but really you shouldn't have expected us to actually do something as difficult as waiting for the correct departure time and it's your fault for not getting there earlier".

Especially when you factor in some stations having a bare minimum connection time of 5 minutes with a valid itinerary, now you would only have 3 minutes to make the next train if it left 2 minutes early, I don't see a delay repay claim being refused in those circumstances if you missed it etc

 

[tiptoptaff]

It probably left bang on time everywhere, showing early is a quirck of the timing system. If they commence dispatch 40seconds prior to departure, and all the doors are already closed (does happen with auto-close) then it takes far less than 40seconds to depart, so the wheels start rolling 20seconds prior to the "right" time. It isn't early, as they commenced dispatch at the right time. But it will show as 1E on Genius/Trust/RTT etc. With berth offset, could easily show as 2E when in fact it was right time

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2023 ==

Perhaps the drivers watch/phone was wrong.

Not our watch bruv, down to the guard that. I just go when they go "buzz buzz" - departure timings aren't anything to do with me

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2023 ==

It probably left bang on time everywhere, showing early is a quirck of the timing system. If they commence dispatch 40seconds prior to departure, and all the doors are already closed (does happen with auto-close) then it takes far less than 40seconds to depart, so the wheels start rolling 20seconds prior to the "right" time. It isn't early, as they commenced dispatch at the right time. But it will show as 1E on Genius/Trust/RTT etc. With berth offset, could easily show as 2E when in fact it was right time

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2023 ==


Not our watch bruv, down to the guard that. I just go when they go "buzz buzz" - departure timings aren't anything to do with me

And the drivers phone would be switched off in any case

 

[AdamWW]

It probably left bang on time everywhere, showing early is a quirck of the timing system. If they commence dispatch 40seconds prior to departure, and all the doors are already closed (does happen with auto-close) then it takes far less than 40seconds to depart, so the wheels start rolling 20seconds prior to the "right" time. It isn't early, as they commenced dispatch at the right time. But it will show as 1E on Genius/Trust/RTT etc. With berth offset, could easily show as 2E when in fact it was right time

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2023 ==

My reading of the original post is that the poster observed the train they were on departing 2 minutes early, and that this was confirmed by RTT.

And does RTT (or its inputs) really round 20 seconds to a full minute?

Also I thought RTT did better with offsets than consistently showing on time services as departing 1 minute early.

And I'd be surprised for the same thing to happen three times in one journey.

 

[tiptoptaff]

RTT is only as good as the TRUST data-feed. And yes, it really does do that. Frequently

 

[louis97]

My reading of the original post is that the poster observed the train they were on departing 2 minutes early, and that this was confirmed by RTT.

And does RTT (or its inputs) really round 20 seconds to a full minute?

Also I thought RTT did better with offsets than consistently showing on time services as departing 1 minute early.

And I'd be surprised for the same thing to happen three times in one journey.

Kings Cross is still showing the TRUST SMART reports at the moment, its a work in progress to get offset data collected. The SMART reports are just times with the seconds truncated, so 073159 would report as 0731. You can see at the other locations RTT is a bit more granular due to the use of Offsets against the Train Describer data. Bear in mind with the train describer reports each quarter minute section of the minute is rounded down, so 075415 reported at Stevenage could have been a calculated time of 075429. This sounds totally reasonable once you factor in the auto-close doors, given the train was stood there for well over 2 minutes.

 

[AdamWW]

RTT is only as good as the TRUST data-feed. And yes, it really does do that. Frequently

Is that true?

I thought RTT applied its own offsets.

I use RTT a lot though admittedly I only use a small part of the rail network but it's very rare for me to see a train showing as departing early and I certainly haven't ever seen a station where trains are consistently shown as doing so.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Is that true?

I thought RTT applied its own offsets.

I use RTT a lot though admittedly I only use a small part of the rail network but it's very rare for me to see a train showing as departing early and I certainly haven't ever seen a station where trains are consistently shown as doing so.

There is only one set of timing data, RTT has a direct feed to it. But it's the same one that all the "internal" systems use

 

[AdamWW]

Kings Cross is still showing the TRUST SMART reports at the moment, its a work in progress to get offset data collected. The SMART reports are just times with the seconds truncated, so 073159 would report as 0731. You can see at the other locations RTT is a bit more granular due to the use of Offsets against the Train Describer data. Bear in mind with the train describer reports each quarter minute section of the minute is rounded down, so 075415 reported at Stevenage could have been a calculated time of 075429. This sounds totally reasonable once you factor in the auto-close doors, given the train was stood there for well over 2 minutes.

Interesting.

It just shows how things can differ from one's own experience because I've almost never seen RTT show a train as departing early - which surprises me if it rounds 1 second early to a whole minute.

It seems rather odd to me that trains are timetable in half minute intervals but the reporting is in full minutes.

 

[louis97]

There is only one set of timing data, RTT has a direct feed to it. But it's the same one that all the "internal" systems use

There is one set of train describer data, in most cases RTT applies different offsets than what NR do on internal systems. Where RTT has done this if you hover over a time and it shows "TD (xx)", xx is the Train Describer area 2 alphanumeric code.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Interesting.

It just shows how things can differ from one's own experience because I've almost never seen RTT show a train as departing early - which surprises me if it rounds 1 second early to a whole minute.

It seems rather odd to me that trains are timetable in half minute intervals but the reporting is in full minutes.

Because it's a very simple computer programme written 40years ago

 

[louis97]

It just shows how things can differ from one's own experience because I've almost never seen RTT show a train as departing early - which surprises me if it rounds 1 second early to a whole minute.

RTT doesn't do this, the Network Rail SMART system does this. This is why RTT uses its own offsets wherever possible.

 

[yorkie]

I can't imagine you'd get anywhere with a delay reclaim for that, 2 minutes early would just be put down to you not allowing enough time if you missed it. 5 to 10 minutes early would be significant and would never happen anyway as the path wouldn't be there.

Do you have a source for this, as I don't think this is right.

 

[avid2424]

The OP was travelling from Kings Cross. I was at Kings Cross late this afternoon with the tannoy booming out - Please note that on LNER trains the train doors will be locked two minutes before departure

 

[Tetchytyke]

5 to 10 minutes early would be significant and would never happen anyway

Funny story, that happened to me at Aylesbury a few years ago. Train from Aylesbury Vale was meant to wait ten minutes at Aylesbury, driver forgot, off they went. I wasn’t particularly amused but it happens, at least the pub was close by and I did get Delay Repay for it.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Do you have a source for this, as I don't think this is right.

Don't have a source but there is definitely a threshold for "margin for error" and for example wouldn't pay delay repay if you missed a train showing 1E on Trust. Cannot tell you what that threshold is, though. I suspect, however, you would not get delay repay for missing a train showing 2E

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Funny story, that happened to me at Aylesbury a few years ago. Train from Aylesbury Vale was meant to wait ten minutes at Aylesbury, driver forgot, off they went. I wasn’t particularly amused but it happens, at least the pub was close by and I did get Delay Repay for it.

There is always the occasion isn't there

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2023 ==

Don't have a source but there is definitely a threshold for "margin for error" and for example wouldn't pay delay repay if you missed a train showing 1E on Trust. Cannot tell you what that threshold is, though. I suspect, however, you would not get delay repay for missing a train showing 2E

I don't have a source either but logically there would be a threshold

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Don't have a source but there is definitely a threshold for "margin for error" and for example wouldn't pay delay repay if you missed a train showing 1E on Trust. Cannot tell you what that threshold is, though. I suspect, however, you would not get delay repay for missing a train showing 2E

I dont think that is correct either, I have had a delay repay claim paid out automatically without having to go through appeals for a missed connection, train 1 minute late resulting in only 4 minutes connection time instead of the 5 minimum, thus paying out on a 1 minute margin for error, I believe delay repay pays out on the absolute minutes recorded with no error


Also plenty of payments for exactly 30 minutes delay again no margin, it would be strange for to program only one scenario having a margin for error and more than one other not to