The railways in 1963 vs 2023 - what would you prefer?

[Peterthegreat]

As a "one-off" it would be nice to go back to 1963 with long closed lines and interesting motive power but in terms of frequency and speed 2023 (mostly) wins hands down. From my home in South Yorkshire I can spend over 12 hours in London, do a day trip to St Ives (Cornwall) or Aberdeen and enjoy (when not cancelled) frequent services to Sheffield, Leeds and Doncaster - none of this was possible 60 years ago.

 

[yorksrob]

And not a single train that was suitable / accessible for those sadly less able than us to travel on!

Yes, that was pretty much the whole of the country.

Although those less able could have been assisted on the train, particularly with plenty of staff

 

[Peterthegreat]

Yes, that was pretty much the whole of the country.

Although those less able could have been assisted on the train, particularly with plenty of staff

Or travel in the guard's van.

 

[uglymonkey]

More like the goods/parcels van ( like a CCT)

 

[Merle Haggard]

And not a single train that was suitable / accessible for those sadly less able than us to travel on!

Neither was there such a bus.
For individual mobility, there was the 'invalid tricycle'; un-powered, one design had hand-operated pedals in front of the occupant's chin. The A.C. Cars tiny blue fibreglass 'invalid (motor) car' if you were very fortunate, came along about that time.

Times change - for the better (sometimes)

 

[The Planner]

I have to disagree on your opinion on the following points:

-Restoring your railway is a wonderful way of connecting communities to the railway network, but please explain how this is holding up the existing railway ?

-Clearly people are interested in EW, otherwise it wouldn't be happenning. This is the Varsity route. Does it cease to become nostalgia once a certain amount of concrete been poured, then it becomes a reopening ?

-The original post was opining that nostalgia was the point of nostalgia holding back the development of the railway.

@The Planner, do you seriously consider nostalgia being one of the main challenges facing the operation and development of the railway today ?

Yes, as why does an old railway alignment become the defacto answer? Which bit of East West to the east of Bedford is a reopening?

 

[AM9]

In 1963 there was still quite a lot of pre-Nationalisation coaching stock. Many branch line trains that were still loco hauled had pre-Nationalisation coaching stock, for example Rugby-Peterborough and Northampton-Peterborough were nearly always Stanier LMS coaches.

And summer Saturday trains, reliefs and excursions would have been predominantly pre-Nationalisation coaching stock.

Most of them were withdrawn very quickly after Beeching.

OK, my memories are of travel in the south-east, - mainly Essex and the lines in the greater London area. As the region with the highest demand for rail travel, - especially commuter travel, much* of the pre-BR rolling stock had been replaced by more reliable MKI based designs. This was true for most traffic in East Anglia, the Southern Region, and even some of the Kings Cross suburban trains. Even the GEML IC services from Norwich shed most of their Thompson and Gresley coaches leaving just a handful of dining cars that were marshalled between MKI coaching stock. The changes between the late '50s and mid '60s was quite rapid.
On the SR, many new EMUs were supplied for the East kent electrification scheme, and the EPBs and thumpers which although legacies of the Bulleid designs were very similar to the BR MKI design principles.

* I did say "much", which is the best way to describe the rapidly changing nature of London and the South-East rolling stock, on which of course a very large proportion of UK journeys were made (and still are).

 

[Magdalia]

OK, my memories are of travel in the south-east, - mainly Essex and the lines in the greater London area. As the region with the highest demand for rail travel, - especially commuter travel, much* of the pre-BR rolling stock had been replaced by more reliable MKI based designs. This was true for most traffic in East Anglia, the Southern Region, and even some of the Kings Cross suburban trains. Even the GEML IC services from Norwich shed most of their Thompson and Gresley coaches leaving just a handful of dining cars that were marshalled between MKI coaching stock. The changes between the late '50s and mid '60s was quite rapid.
On the SR, many new EMUs were supplied for the East kent electrification scheme, and the EPBs and thumpers which although legacies of the Bulleid designs were very similar to the BR MKI design principles.

* I did say "much", which is the best way to describe the rapidly changing nature of London and the South-East rolling stock, on which of course a very large proportion of UK journeys were made (and still are).

The Kent Coast electrification, the Liverpool Street electrifications and the elimination of steam from East Anglia were all big Modernisation Schemes that were just about complete by 1963.

But the summer Saturday Leicester-Clacton and Clacton-Leicester were still LMS stock in 1963, and some of the day excursions to Clacton would have been pre-Nationalisation stock too. 1963 was the last summer that the Leicester-Clacton was not "out and back": the stock coming in from Leicester worked a train to Cambridge and was available there until working a Cambridge-Clacton then the Clacton-Leicester 7 days later. I don't know to what extent, if any, that the ER used the LMS stock during the week: it is likely that it went to Clacton or Hunstanton on the Sunday. By 1964 the "out and back" Leicester-Clacton was MarkIs.

The Leicester-Clacton would definitely be on my 1963 "to do" list!

 

[yorksrob]

Or travel in the guard's van.

The guards van would have been easy to convert into a disabled persons saloon - infact this is frequently done on heritage railways.

The country hadn't quite progressed that far at the time.

That said, were I a disabled person, I could imagine preferring 2023 for the better thought out facilities.

Yes, as why does an old railway alignment become the defacto answer? Which bit of East West to the east of Bedford is a reopening?

I don't really see your point.

An original alignment is generally preferred as it is the line of least resistance. However, you yourself have pointed out an example where the old route isn't available and a new route would be taken, so clearly nostalgia isn't preventing that from opening.

However, putting that to one side, new projects are only a small part of the railway. The operational railway is currently beset with problems, none of which have anything to do with nostalgia.

 

[dk1]

The guards van would have been easy to convert into a disabled persons saloon - infact this is frequently done on heritage railways.

The country hadn't quite progressed that far at the time.

That said, were I a disabled person, I could imagine preferring 2023 for the better thought out facilities.

When I joined the railway in the mid-80s we were loading wheelchair passengers into the brake van with the parcels and post. No heat was available in most but a blanket was provided in cooler months. I don’t recall there being that many disabled travellers back then unlike today.

 

[yorksrob]

When I joined the railway in the mid-80s we were loading wheelchair passengers into the brake van with the parcels and post. No heat was available in most but a blanket was provided in cooler months. I don’t recall there being that many disabled travellers back then unlike today.

I think that there was definitely a bit of a lost opportunity to provide something better for wheelchair users during the mid-life refurbishments in the 1980's, however I fear we're straying off-topic.

 

[dk1]

I think that there was definitely a bit of a lost opportunity to provide something better for wheelchair users during the mid-life refurbishments in the 1980's, however I fear we're straying off-topic.

I would imagine things were pretty bleak on the disabled travel front in 1963. My uncle was disabled and would’ve been around 20 at that time. Apart from locally I don’t think he was taken anywhere until they had a car to go slightly further afield. It just wasn’t a done thing in those days.

 

[AM9]

The Kent Coast electrification, the Liverpool Street electrifications and the elimination of steam from East Anglia were all big Modernisation Schemes that were just about complete by 1963.

But the summer Saturday Leicester-Clacton and Clacton-Leicester were still LMS stock in 1963, and some of the day excursions to Clacton would have been pre-Nationalisation stock too. 1963 was the last summer that the Leicester-Clacton was not "out and back": the stock coming in from Leicester worked a train to Cambridge and was available there until working a Cambridge-Clacton then the Clacton-Leicester 7 days later. I don't know to what extent, if any, that the ER used the LMS stock during the week: it is likely that it went to Clacton or Hunstanton on the Sunday. By 1964 the "out and back" Leicester-Clacton was MarkIs.

The Leicester-Clacton would definitely be on my 1963 "to do" list!

OK, but the Summer Saturday (only) was a single train each way that was unlikely to be used by those travelling along the GEML as by '63 there were the far better class 309s for those wanting to travel in a corridor train, (and of course they ran every Hour from Liverpool St, and were the fasted trains on the mainline, let alone the actuial route. The 309s were of course one of the later builds of MKI coach stock.

 

[Magdalia]

OK, but the Summer Saturday (only) was a single train each way that was unlikely to be used by those travelling along the GEML as by '63 there were the far better class 309s for those wanting to travel in a corridor train, (and of course they ran every Hour from Liverpool St, and were the fasted trains on the mainline, let alone the actuial route. The 309s were of course one of the later builds of MKI coach stock.

Only just, the AM9s were introduced in February 1963. Go back two more years, to 1961 and before electrification of Chelmsford-Colchester. The Clacton line was very different then.

 

[AM9]

Only just, the AM9s were introduced in February 1963. Go back two more years, to 1961 and before electrification of Chelmsford-Colchester. The Clacton line was very different then.

My point still stands, by 1963, there were few trains comprising anything other than BR rolling stock on the GEML*, the exceptions mainly being random through seaside specials from other regions, and as mentioned earlier, a few Gresley/Thompson coaches mainly in the Harwich Parkestone Quay rakes that hardly any Essex person travelled on. My first journey to Clacton by train was in the summer of '63 which was in a spotless maroon AM9. My journey with those trains started there.

* I acknowledge that the Shenfield Electrics (AM6s) were LNER designs but they did last from 1949 until 1981 and were similar to MK1 designs in internal comfort levels, but with sliding doors of course.

 

[Krokodil]

According to a source I found, the 1963 cost was 3p per mile:

Was this the rate for single fares? How were returns priced, were they just twice the single fare? Had the CDR been invented by then?

For comparison, an Anytime Single from Manchester to London is currently just over £1 per mile - more than four times the 1963 rate, even after adjusting for inflation. The Off Peak rate is just under 40p per mile so still a considerable increase.

 

[uglymonkey]

In 1963, the station where I grew up had 2 branch lines , direct connection to London, large station building, waiting room and toilet. 4 covered platform and concourse,WH Smith Kiosk, large goods yard and shed, engine shed and brach to the docks. Bus stops and a taxi rank outside.
In 2023 the station has a single windswept uncovered platform, with bus shelters on dead end track, a brick ticket office, no toilets,no taxi rank or bus stops, no direct service to london, but a " clockface" timetable.
Such is progress.

 

[krus_aragon]

My current commute involves going from Llandudno to Llangefni. Given that passenger services were withdrawn from Llangefni in 1964, my first instinct is toward 1963, so that I could commute by train. But as I've got a September 1963 timetable on the shelf, let's plan my morning out...

Morning arrivals in Llangefni are not well-timed for people commuting from the mainland. I have a choice of arriving at 07:03 or 09:48.

Backtracking from the 0703 arrival, that train departs Bangor at 06:40. This would start from Bangor shed, and there's no convenient connection from the Llandudno Jn direction. The only option is to hop on a night train that's come from Crewe/Euston, leaving Llandudno Jn at 04:22 (04:41 MO), dropping me off in Bangor at 04:41 (05:00 MO) with a long fester. If I'm there that early, I may as well catch the very first train of the morning for Llangefni, leaving Bangor at 05:45 and putting me in Llangefni for 06:08. Naturally, I'd have had to walk from Llandudno to Llandudno Jn in the wee hours of the morning to catch that train in the first place! That's not a practical option.

If a 09:48 arrival in Llangefni would be acceptable, I'd only need to depart Bangor at 09:23 (with a change of train at Gaerwen). There's a train from Rhyl to Bangor leaving Llandudno Jn at 08:52 (arriving 09:18), which looks like it could be diagrammed to operate the onward 09:23 service. A train from Llandudno at 08:35 would make the connection at the Junction.

So that plan looks like:
LLD 08:35 - LLJ 08:43
LLJ 08:52 - BNG 09:18
BNG 09:23 - GAE 09:37
GAE 09:40 - Llangefni 09:48

That's an hour and a quarter's commute, with three changes. Not too bad, other than the fact that I'm not going to be present for 9am. By comparison, driving today it's about three quarters of an hour. A modern public transport commute is not as rosy, however. Here's a bus and rail option in 2023:

LLD 08:02 - LLJ 08:12
LLJ 08:18 - BNG 08:40
Bus from Bangor to Llangefni: dep 08:48, arr. 09:38
Just over an hour and a half, and there's no through ticketing from train to bus. (The train service an hour earlier misses the bus connection, too.)

If I take the bus straight through, it's 07:22 from Llandudno to arrive at the same 09:38, with one 20 minute change in Bangor. That's now over two and a quarter hours, but confusingly it can be done for the same price as just the bus ticket in the previous journey.

Overall, the journey into work is better in 1963 by public transport, but only if my work schedule is happy to meet train timings. Private transport beats both hands-down in 2023, but would be extremely lengthy on 1963 roads (especially near tourist season, with tailbacks through Conwy, Bangor, Menai Bridge).

Annoyingly, there's a through car marked in the timetable for travel from Llangefni TO Llandudno in the morning, departing Llangefni at 07:17, and getting into Llandudno for 08:29. Clearly, I'm commuting in the wrong direction. (Realistically, in 1963 I'd have ended up working somewhere else, or moving house instead.)

 

[Philip]

Was the roaring track caused by corrugation much of a problem 60 years ago, or was it more the 70s/80s when this became noticeable?

 

[Irascible]

Was the roaring track caused by corrugation much of a problem 60 years ago, or was it more the 70s/80s when this became noticeable?

If you look for papers on it, rail corrugation has been a problem about as long as we've had rails. Theoretically the joints in jointed track should help break or at least mitigate the reasonance that causes corrugations ( and I'm curious if changes in ballast profiles in the 70s made some difference one way or the other ) but we did also have some CWR in the 60s too.

 

[uglymonkey]

Indeed quite a lot of CWR got ripped out by Beeching

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed quite a lot of CWR got ripped out by Beeching

Some of it got re-used. I seem to recall that the section of CWR on the Ormskirk-Preston line and that on the Conwy Valley are both second hand from Beeching closures. At least one of them I believe came from Woodhead.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Some of it got re-used. I seem to recall that the section of CWR on the Ormskirk-Preston line and that on the Conwy Valley are both second hand from Beeching closures. At least one of them I believe came from Woodhead.

Which wasn't proposed for closure by Dr B and actually closed (for freight) long afterwards.

BR was pretty good at salvaging re-usable materials. When many lines were singled under the famous Surplus Track Capacity [Hasty Elimination] Grants under the 1968 Transport Act it was often a case of 'stitching together' the best bits of kit, included welded rail, from either of the lines.

 

[Mikey C]

On the contrary, plenty of us are young enough to have experienced thumper, CIG and EPB seating. Rock hard seats that give you an aching arse after an hour don't compare.

While later SR stock were better, I found the EPB seating really uncomfortable. Bouncy and very upright. Along with the rock hard ride from the crude suspension.

Which is not to defend modern ironing board seating like the 700s, but at least they have air suspension and aircon.

 

[yorksrob]

While later SR stock were better, I found the EPB seating really uncomfortable. Bouncy and very upright. Along with the rock hard ride from the crude suspension.

Which is not to defend modern ironing board seating like the 700s, but at least they have air suspension and aircon.

Each to their own I suppose.

I can tolerate the 700's with seat back tables.

 

[Merle Haggard]

If you look for papers on it, rail corrugation has been a problem about as long as we've had rails. Theoretically the joints in jointed track should help break or at least mitigate the reasonance that causes corrugations ( and I'm curious if changes in ballast profiles in the 70s made some difference one way or the other ) but we did also have some CWR in the 60s too.

There were roaring rails on the Down for a stretch between Roade and Northampton certainly from 1961 (when I reached an age to realise what it was) to about the 1980s and seemed to endure re-layings - I think that it must have been re-laid in electrification preparation, and it was certainly jointed when I first noticed it. I can't remember exactly when it disappeared but could have been related to what you suggest.
It was on a downhill section and trains may well have been coasting; the speed restriction entering the station throat meant that there was no need to apply power and, usually, there was no need for braking, so this may have been a factor. Hunting (in screw coupling/.BS gangway stock usual at the time) seemed to be much more prevalent (sometimes severe) on this section as well, perhaps for the same reason (couplings 'relaxed').
Civil engineers I sometimes commuted with said that the corrugations were not particulalry visible but could be sensed by passing one's fingers along the railhead
There was also a stretch somewhere between Northampton and Wellingborough, but I can't remember where.
For those who haven't experienced it the best description I can suggest is that it sounded like a howling gale whistling resonantly through the underframe.

 

[AM9]

Each to their own I suppose.

I can tolerate the 700's with seat back tables.

The EPBs were similar to the MK1 ac EMUs of the '60s, - lively suspension with deep sprung seats and a poor posture. Clearly some here think that a perception of comfort trumps a healthy posture.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Clearly some here think that a perception of comfort trumps a healthy posture.

To be fair most sofas promote a perception of comfort over a healthy posture.

 

[AM9]

To be fair most sofas promote a perception of comfort over a healthy posture.

I don't agree with 'most' unless you mean just cheap mass produced ones.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't agree with 'most' unless you mean just cheap mass produced ones.

Most peoples' sofas are cheap mass-produced ones from the likes of DFS, so yes, I do mean most sofas.

If you spend a fortune I'm sure you can get ones that encourage a good posture, but most people don't.

Personally I replaced mine, as mentioned above, with some 150 quid Ikea Poang chairs, which are a bit like a railway first class seat in size and shape, just a bit bouncier, and do promote good posture (as I have back issues).