What else should have been included in 'Network North' ?

[jonesy3001]

Electrify newton heath depot,
the rochdale line to leeds,
the CLC line to liverpool via warrington central,
The hyde loop if they're electrifying to sheffield.

 

[Class15]

1 realistic passenger services for the Reddish South and Brigg Line.

I could add to that:

1. Greenford to South Ruislip
2. Polesworth on the Trent Valley Line
3. Pilning on the GWML

 

[Hey 3]

Electrify newton heath depot,
the rochdale line to leeds,
the CLC line to liverpool via warrington central,
The hyde loop if they're electrifying to sheffield.

Hyde loop is planned to be "tram trained". I don't see them bothering with Rochdale because of TRU.

What I would include:
Metrolink to Stockport
CLC line wired up
And Hazel Grove to Sheffield wires
Plus a station at Kenyon Junction near Leigh.
Would also try to sneak Crewe-Millington as part of NPR.

 

[deltic08]

The line from Squires Gate to Kirkham should be converted to a tramway and run as an extension of the Blackpool tramway, with the existing heavy rail line north of Squires Gate closed.

Why should it? Who wants to change at Kirkham into a pedestrian journey onwards to Lytham and Blackpool increasing journey time when presently it is a through and superior heavy train.
I agree with Bevan Price. Extend heavy rail from Blackpool South further into Central Blackpool whilst it is still possible to ease pressure on North and electrify.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2023 ==

Most of the line is now an housing estate and one of the tunnels near pool is now a house.
Walked down it a while ago and the junction from the harrogate line is now a farm, 2:35 in this video I took going through bramhope tunnel on 170472.

170472

Going through bramhope tunnel and the old junction to otley at the end of the video

flic.kr

The trackbed off the Leeds-Harrogate line at Arthington is no different to what is was in 1965 on closure. The trackbed is not a farm. Just incorporated with adjacent farmland as they are both level topography but importantly not built on.
Instead of building another station at Horsforth in a deep cutting costing £30M+, reinstate the line less than a mile to Pool in Wharfedale as far as the first A road overbridge and build a P&R station and car park on level ground. Electrify if/when the Harrogate Loop is electrified or electrify Leeds-Horsforth-Pool before. Operate a 15 minute service to/from Leeds.

 

[The Planner]

Why should it? Who wants to change at Kirkham into a pedestrian journey onwards to Lytham and Blackpool increasing journey time when presently it is a through and superior heavy train.
I agree with Bevan Price. Extend heavy rail from Blackpool South further into Central Blackpool whilst it is still possible to ease pressure on North and electrify.

Certainly more chance of the former than the latter. What pressure does North have? its a six platform electrified station with no capacity issues on the line running to it from Preston with 4tph. Preston would be the capacity issue. Without trying to resurrect old discussions on this, Kirkham to Blackpool is one train in section for 11 miles, a tram could be multiple services an hour with no requirement for costly signaling upgrades and little in the way of track upgrades. When does the tram extension to North open?

 

[deltic08]

Certainly more chance of the former than the latter. What pressure does North have? its a six platform electrified station with no capacity issues on the line running to it from Preston with 4tph. Preston would be the capacity issue. Without trying to resurrect old discussions on this, Kirkham to Blackpool is one train in section for 11 miles, a tram could be multiple services an hour with no requirement for costly signaling upgrades and little in the way of track upgrades. When does the tram extension to North open?

OK, no pressure at North at present. Who knows what the future holds but heavy rail extension into Blackpool Central is no less valid.

 

[The Planner]

OK, no pressure at North at present. Who knows what the future holds but heavy rail extension into Blackpool Central is no less valid.

No its not less valid, but it clearly isn't needed until Blackpool North is overloaded, which I suspect is either decades or never, away.

 

[deltic08]

No its not less valid, but it clearly isn't needed until Blackpool North is overloaded, which I suspect is either decades or never, away.

Please tell me how extending trams to Kirkham is better than an electrified heavy rail into central Blackpool?

 

[The Planner]

Please tell me how extending trams to Kirkham is better than an electrified heavy rail?

Cheaper for a start.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Electrifying the morecambe and double the line when the Eden project is built,
Reopening the woodhead route even if does mean reboring a tunnel and knocking houses down,
Electrifying the calder valley line to leeds.

Keep going, I've almost got a RailForums Pointless Reopenings bingo!

 

[Hey 3]

Keep going, I've almost got a RailForums Pointless Reopenings bingo!

Indeed.

 

[Krokodil]

Keep going, I've almost got a RailForums Pointless Reopenings bingo!

Has anyone mentioned the S&D yet?

 

[deltic08]

Cheaper for a start.

Is that all? It is better because it is cheaper. A bucket with a hole in the bottom is cheaper than one without but not as good. I see.
What else?

 

[Krokodil]

Is that all? It is better because it is cheaper. A bucket with a hole in the bottom is cheaper than one without but not as good. I see.
What else?

Not a valid comparison. A bucket with a hole in it is no use at all for carrying water, but a tram is a perfectly useful way of getting about town.

 

[HSTEd]

Given the experience elsewhere, I'd expect the population of Lytham etc would prefer the tram if it came with a higher frequency than the current heavy rail service on the Blackpool South line.

Which it almost certainly would.
Capacity limits in Preston will mean that any increase in frequency for Blackpool South would be purchased at the direct expense of Blackpool North.

A tram solution out to Kirkham would likely provide a far superior local transport capability.

I can't think of any sensible scenario where the six platforms at Blackpool North prove insufficient.

 

[The Planner]

Is that all? It is better because it is cheaper. A bucket with a hole in the bottom is cheaper than one without but not as good. I see.
What else?

Increased frequency that would connect at Kirkham without constraining Preston. Enables more local stops. Gets people closer to Blackpool without having to build anything else. Look up minimum viable product, in this case it would what is there now/do nothing, then the tram, then heavy rail.

 

[bluenoxid]

The trackbed off the Leeds-Harrogate line at Arthington is no different to what is was in 1965 on closure. The trackbed is not a farm. Just incorporated with adjacent farmland as they are both level topography but importantly not built on.

Instead of building another station at Horsforth in a deep cutting costing £30M+, reinstate the line less than a mile to Pool in Wharfedale as far as the first A road overbridge and build a P&R station and car park on level ground. Electrify if/when the Harrogate Loop is electrified or electrify Leeds-Horsforth-Pool before. Operate a 15 minute service to/from Leeds.

The track bed has not been maintained but that can be dealt with.

I’m not exactly convinced that a P&R station in that location would be such a major winner and the costs would ramp up with the additional platform that is likely to be required to accommodate the extra trains in Leeds

Personally, I think additional railway lines are not the answer in this area. Im also not enthused by the additional station in the Horsforth area. For Otley, I would suggest looking at feeder systems such as bus routes.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

4 tracking Dore to Sheffield Midland station, doing something about the northern throat (would cost billions though).

 

[jonesy3001]

The track bed has not been maintained but that can be dealt with.

I’m not exactly convinced that a P&R station in that location would be such a major winner and the costs would ramp up with the additional platform that is likely to be required to accommodate the extra trains in Leeds

Personally, I think additional railway lines are not the answer in this area. Im also not enthused by the additional station in the Horsforth area. For Otley, I would suggest looking at feeder systems such as bus routes.

The bus service isn't exactly that great when it comes to rush hour and where the station was is now the bypass.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2023 ==

Keep going, I've almost got a RailForums Pointless Reopenings bingo!

Let's have a look at the card then.

 

[Hey 3]

I would also electrify the Buxton line to allow EMUs to reach Buxton since Piccadilly to Hazel Grove is wired.

 

[jonesy3001]

I would also electrify the Buxton line to allow EMUs to reach Buxton since Piccadilly to Hazel Grove is wired.

Isn't there a problem with the clearance in one of the tunnels, only reason why the can only use 150s and 156s.

 

[deltic08]

The track bed has not been maintained but that can be dealt with.

I’m not exactly convinced that a P&R station in that location would be such a major winner and the costs would ramp up with the additional platform that is likely to be required to accommodate the extra trains in Leeds

Personally, I think additional railway lines are not the answer in this area. Im also not enthused by the additional station in the Horsforth area. For Otley, I would suggest looking at feeder systems such as bus routes.

The Pool extension is less than a mile of single track. Three 25mph turnouts for the junction, associated signalling and a basic 3-car single platform with lighting are required. Shall we say no more than £20M.
The platform space at Leeds has already been installed in the shape of platform 0. Turnround time in Leeds could be as little as five minutes to reduce platform blocking.
In such a heavily populated area additional railway lines certainly are needed including connecting Otley, Wetherby, Tadcaster, Kippax and Ripon all in the Leeds City Region.
It takes 112 minutes from Ripon to Leeds by bus for a distance of only 30 miles. Slower than a gallopimg horse. It takes only 119 minutes to travel to London by train

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2023 ==

Isn't there a problem with the clearance in one of the tunnels, only reason why the can only use 150s and 156s.

Whatever happened to the Farnworth tunnel boring machine? Boring out this tunnel is justified to allow electrification and increase speed limit.

 

[fishwomp]

Keep going, I've almost got a RailForums Pointless Reopenings bingo!

Skipton - Colne

 

[jonesy3001]

The Pool extension is less than a mile of single track. Three 25mph turnouts for the junction, associated signalling and a basic 3-car single platform with lighting are required. Shall we say no more than £20M.
The platform space at Leeds has already been installed in the shape of platform 0. Turnround time in Leeds could be as little as five minutes to reduce platform blocking.
In such a heavily populated area additional railway lines certainly are needed including connecting Otley, Wetherby, Tadcaster, Kippax and Ripon all in the Leeds City Region.
It takes 112 minutes from Ripon to Leeds by bus for a distance of only 30 miles. Slower than a gallopimg horse. It takes only 119 minutes to travel to London by train

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2023 ==


Whatever happened to the Farnworth tunnel boring machine? Boring out this tunnel is justified to allow electrification and increase speed limit.

Most of the trackbed is still there but like a said there's an housing estate now in pool.
You still can see the trackbed in these pics from the leeds rd roundabout heading towards the harrogate line.

 

[bluenoxid]

The Pool extension is less than a mile of single track. Three 25mph turnouts for the junction, associated signalling and a basic 3-car single platform with lighting are required. Shall we say no more than £20M.
The platform space at Leeds has already been installed in the shape of platform 0. Turnround time in Leeds could be as little as five minutes to reduce platform blocking.
In such a heavily populated area additional railway lines certainly are needed including connecting Otley, Wetherby, Tadcaster, Kippax and Ripon all in the Leeds City Region.
It takes 112 minutes from Ripon to Leeds by bus for a distance of only 30 miles. Slower than a gallopimg horse. It takes only 119 minutes to travel to London by train

Absolutely no way would I say £20m for cracking into an existing signalling system, three switches, a mile of track, a three carriage station and a car park. This kind of project is at least £60m and that’s with the stars aligning for it. And if you are hoping to utilise a 5 minute turnaround in Leeds, there is very little chance that anyone is going to sign off a single lead, single platform and track at the other end. Platform 0 was built to support 4 TPH on the Harrogate line. This would push up to 8 TPH from the Harrogate line

Unfortunately, heavy rail is not really the best value solution for the small “towns” you list without some major changes to infrastructure in the north and an acceptance on development.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Skipton - Colne

Bingo!

Absolutely no way would I say £20m for cracking into an existing signalling system, three switches, a mile of track, a three platform station and a car park. This kind of project is at least £60m and that’s with the stars aligning for it. And if you are hoping to utilise a 5 minute turnaround in Leeds, there is very little chance that anyone is going to sign off a single lead, single platform and track at the other end. Platform 0 was built to support 4 TPH on the Harrogate line. This would push up to 8 TPH from the Harrogate line

Unfortunately, heavy rail is not really the best value solution for the small “towns” you list without some major changes to infrastructure in the north and an acceptance on development.

I think you've misread that - the post you're replying to said "a basic 3-car single platform".

 

[Bantamzen]

The trackbed off the Leeds-Harrogate line at Arthington is no different to what is was in 1965 on closure. The trackbed is not a farm. Just incorporated with adjacent farmland as they are both level topography but importantly not built on.
Instead of building another station at Horsforth in a deep cutting costing £30M+, reinstate the line less than a mile to Pool in Wharfedale as far as the first A road overbridge and build a P&R station and car park on level ground. Electrify if/when the Harrogate Loop is electrified or electrify Leeds-Horsforth-Pool before. Operate a 15 minute service to/from Leeds.

A P&R is highly unlikely to work at Pool. For a start Pool is a small village (with a population of around 2.3K) in a pretty much all green belt area, so good luck getting planning permission for a big new car park there. But more over it is about the same distance away from Otley as Menston which has an established rail link, car park and 2-3 buses an hour to Otley. So even arguing a business case would be pretty futile really.

 

[snowball]

Whatever happened to the Farnworth tunnel boring machine?

It was dismantled on completion of the bore.

 

[Hey 3]

It was dismantled on completion of the bore.

A shame really.

 

[The Planner]

A shame really.

What were you going to do with it otherwise? You would have the cost of storage etc. for no planned use.