Shakespeare Express-like service for the Esk Valley line

[A S Leib]

A few months ago there was a thread on whether or not the NYMR could run services to Battersby. The general answer was no (too much of an overextension for the NYMR without really serving anywhere it doesn't currently). However, could a service similar to the Shakespeare Express be viable from Middlesbrough or even Darlington, with a summer weekend round service (e.g. leaving Darlington ~08:00 on summer Saturdays, picking up at Middlesbrough at 08:30, arrival at Whitby at 10:00, leaving Whitby at 17:30), not necessarily operated by NYMR? Would there be enough demand without abstracting from the Pickering branch?

Are there any other lines (apart from Fort William–Mallaig) where a regular summer steam service could be viable? Do Fort William–Mallaig and Birmingham Snow Hill–Stratford-upon-Avon only work because of certain factors not present elsewhere, e.g. a lack of competition for heritage railways in the West Highlands and Birmingham's / West Midlands' size plus the number of tourists going to Stratford?

 

[Iskra]

It's possible and it is undoubtedly a scenic journey. One operational question mark would be how it fits around NYMR services at Whitby and where the stock stables. However, whether Middlesbrough and its catchment area have enough of a population to offer such a service is questionable to me. Such a service may have to start further afield and serve Newcastle/Sunderland, Darlington or York to generate enough bookings. Personally, I would just like to see a more frequent Northern service to make the line more useful for all, however a special steam service could be effective in drawing attention to the line and proving the market to Northern so they see fit to run a better timetable.

Regular (ish) steam services have run on the Settle-Carlisle and York-Scarborough routes by WCRC, plus others run fairly regularly over the Settle-Carlisle too.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

However, could a service similar to the Shakespeare Express be viable...

For context, what is a typical 'Shakespeare Express' service? Cost / frequency? Runs between Birmingham Snow Hill and Stratford-upon-Avon (only) presumably?

 

[A S Leib]

For context, what is a typical 'Shakespeare Express' service? Cost / frequency? Runs between Birmingham Snow Hill and Stratford-upon-Avon (only) presumably?

Birmingham Snow Hill, Moor Street and Tyseley to Stratford at 10:00, leaving at ~16:00 on summer Sundays with standard ('tourist') seats at £35 for an adult and £85 in Pullman class (including English breakfast and tea).

 

[yorksrob]

If such a service were viable, starting at 8:00 at Darlington wouldn't be much use as most passengers would presumably be coming from further afield.

I would have thought starting Darlington 10:00 - 10:30, coming back in the early evening, 18:00 - 18:30 would give people time to get to Darlington, time to have a good few hours in Whitby and time to get back to Darlo for journeys back.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What then happens to the 1019 (SuX) Middlesbrough -> Whitby (Northern) service train? Is it possible/permitted to path multiple trains on the (mostly) single track Esk Valley Line, or is it strictly one train only at all times of the day due to tokens and/or signalling requirements?

 

[ainsworth74]

If such a service were viable, starting at 8:00 at Darlington wouldn't be much use as most passengers would presumably be coming from further afield.

I would have thought starting Darlington 10:00 - 10:30, coming back in the early evening, 18:00 - 18:30 would give people time to get to Darlington, time to have a good few hours in Whitby and time to get back to Darlo for journeys back.

I'd agree with this. If a service like this were to be viable (and it's a big if) then you'd want to start from Darlington around 1000 and leave Middlesbrough around 1030 and arriving into Whitby mid-dayish. Though this is going to be tricky to path as Northern's 1019 runs in the path that this service would therefore want to be in so you might be forced into running earlier than would be desirable with the commercial consequences that that brings! The return might be a bit easier to path around but getting to Whitby is going to be tricky. There's a reason the 1019 is booked to be a 4-car train, its very very popular.

Is it possible/permitted to path multiple trains on the (mostly) single track Esk Valley Line, or is it strictly one train only at all times of the day due to tokens and/or signalling requirements?

It's one train in section at a time with passing facilities at Nunthorpe, Battersby (note this is a first train in, last train out situation as they pass using the same long platform) and Glaisdale so you can run multiple trains but they can only pass at those points and that's subject to train length of course as the token exchanges happen in platform. So a train following directly behind another heading towards Whitby couldn't leave Middlesbrough until the first train had departed Nunthorpe, couldn't leave Nunthorpe until the next had arrived at Battersby (and returned the token for the Nunthrope - Battersby section), etc etc.

 

[yorksrob]

I suppose if you timed it to leave Middlesborough for half an hour or so before or after the 10:19, one or other will be at Battersby jnc by that time.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Talking of Battersby Junction, if a steam service was ever able to operate along the Esk Valley Line, either there'd need to be sufficient time for the steam (?) loco to be detached and run around the carriages before being re-attached, or the train would need to operate with a steam loco at one end, and a diesel loco at the other?

 

[30907]

The only day this service could run at present would be a Sunday, because the NYMR and NT occupy the line east of Grosmont during the day.
Arrivals at Whitby are possible around 1130 or 1445 and departures 1415 or 1715.

The earlier arrival would work operationally from York, which is the nearest place you would find a steam loco (the Shakespeare Express works because Tyseley is on the spot!), but you might struggle to find passengers for it from anywhere further afield, so the later time is probably better.

The alternative might be for the NYMR to supply the steam loco, working the train from Battersby, with a diesel from York (or Newcastle?) However I assume there is a resource reason the NYMR doesn't want to run more trains to Whitby on a Sunday, so that may be a non-starter.

 

[zwk500]

It's one train in section at a time with passing facilities at Nunthorpe, Battersby (note this is a first train in, last train out situation as they pass using the same long platform)

It is possible to use both platforms at Battersby to pass trains without doing ABBA moves.

Talking of Battersby Junction, if a steam service was ever able to operate along the Esk Valley Line, either there'd need to be sufficient time for the steam (?) loco to be detached and run around the carriages before being re-attached, or the train would need to operate with a steam loco at one end, and a diesel loco at the other?

NYMR Run round I think, most charters have the diesel on the back to shunt elsewhere as well. A good crew could runround at Battersby in less than 10 minutes, although not sure whether they'd need the section token while doing so.

The only day this service could run at present would be a Sunday, because the NYMR and NT occupy the line east of Grosmont during the day.
Arrivals at Whitby are possible around 1130 or 1445 and departures 1415 or 1715.

It would almost certainly need the Grosmont token section putting in.

The alternative might be for the NYMR to supply the steam loco, working the train from Battersby, with a diesel from York (or Newcastle?) However I assume there is a resource reason the NYMR doesn't want to run more trains to Whitby on a Sunday, so that may be a non-starter.

The NYMR will be loathe to run their loco and crew empty from Grosmont to Battersby to pick up somebody else's train. If they're running to Battersby they'd want their own punters on board. In theory you could pay them to provide it but that's not going to help make the train viable.

 

[ainsworth74]

It is possible to use both platforms at Battersby to pass trains without doing ABBA moves.

There's only one operational platform at Battersby?

 

[zwk500]

There's only one operational platform at Battersby?

No idea on the status of the platform, but I'm fairly sure (although could be wrong) that charters have been booked into the other side as they would have been too long to fit behind the passenger unit. It certainly isn't preferred working though, and may need special permission (or guarantees of no passengers getting off).

 

[A S Leib]

The earlier arrival would work operationally from York, which is the nearest place you would find a steam loco (the Shakespeare Express works because Tyseley is on the spot!), but you might struggle to find passengers for it from anywhere further afield, so the later time is probably better.

Once construction on Darlington locomotive works has finished could it work from there? Bishop Auckland's around the same distance from Middlesbrough as York in (passenger service) time, although presumably the Weardale Railway would only be able / willing to offer space or locomotives if it benefited as well.

 

[ainsworth74]

No idea on the status of the platform, but I'm fairly sure (although could be wrong) that charters have been booked into the other side as they would have been too long to fit behind the passenger unit. It certainly isn't preferred working though, and may need special permission (or guarantees of no passengers getting off).

Definitely only one platform

Yeah I'm discovering it's potentially a bit more flexible than I initially thought but still not ideal. Any charter would need to use the other side of the layout so the Northern can call at the station.

although presumably the Weardale Railway would only be able / willing to offer space or locomotives if it benefited as well.

They don't operate steam do they? It's DMUs only I think?

 

[zwk500]

Definitely only one platform

Yeah I'm discovering it's potentially a bit more flexible than I initially thought but still not ideal. Any charter would need to use the other side of the layout so the Northern can call at the station.

I think if you were doing 1 train each way per day as the steam offer then you might be able to get agreement to use the non-operational side. Sillier things have been done to run steam jollies...

 

[30907]

The NYMR will be loathe to run their loco and crew empty from Grosmont to Battersby to pick up somebody else's train. If they're running to Battersby they'd want their own punters on board. In theory you could pay them to provide it but that's not going to help make the train viable.

Will it cost more than paying the NRM or whoever to provide a loco? If I were the NYMR I would be interested if the price was right and it was practicable.

On the subject of Battersby, only the afternoon arrival at Whitby requires a crossing there, the oher 3 theoretical paths cross at Glaisdale .
.

 

[A S Leib]

They don't operate steam do they? It's DMUs only I think?

DMUs for now with one steam train under repair as far as I can tell.

 

[zwk500]

Will it cost more than paying the NRM or whoever to provide a loco? If I were the NYMR I would be interested if the price was right and it was practicable.

I suspect it will be easier to get WCRC to operate from a temporary York base (or even overnight stabling at Grosmont) than to ask the NYMR to resource a commercial operation. Are NYMR drivers even cleared up to Middlesbrough?

 

[Egton]

When the NYMR renewed its operating licence earlier this year, it opted for a licence that only covers the Grosmont Whitby section of the Esk Valley Line.
They can no longer operate on the Grosmont Glaisdale Battersby section of the Esk Valley Line.