How about a Bannau Brycheiniog base tunnel?
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Why a 49-mile journey in Wales takes seven hours
- Thread starter ANDREW_D_WEBB
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
CardiffKid
Member
Very good!
There is a decent subsidised bus service between Blaenau Ffestiniog and Porthmadog, needless to say it does not connect with the subsidised trains and naturally there are no through or integrated tickets…
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
I can't help noticing that these objections to crossing the border twice en-route only seem to go one way.
To travel from Shrewsbury (England) to Chester (England), the direct rail route passes through Wales. Oddly, I've never ever heard anyone complaining about that!
Dr Hoo
Established Member
Ah, yes. Whitby-Scarborough, which Harold Wilson promised to 'save' if elected.
And Grimsby-Firsby-Skegness, which was still open over five years after Beeching had left.
And Plymouth-Tavistock-Okehampton, which lasted for three years after Beeching had gone.
If only Prime Ministers had the power to somehow control or override railway managers, especially after they're no longer there.
And as for Denham-Uxbridge, which closed just before the Second World War. It's amazing how the young Beeching's malign influence had reached down the GWR North Main Line from where the young chemical engineer was working for an ICI predecessor and living in Solihull.
Uxbridge Vine Street-West Drayton did close under Beeching, albeit an earlier BR(WR) proposal and before the Reshaping Report.
West Drayton-Staines West was indeed a Beeching proposal but closed after the new government had taken over the previous year. Perhaps a more positive development had been the re-introduction of freight traffic beyond Colnbrook, with up to fifteen block oil trains per week to a new terminal - a fine example of a modern approach being applied to the railways. Sadly that sort of traffic opportunity didn't arise on the Carmarthen-Aberystwyth line (although the two brand new branch lines into Milford Haven refineries showed that West Wales was well on BR's radar).
It would open up a large number of journey possibilities. Problem is that they are overwhelmingly very low demand journeys.
A great post. But I disagree with this part.
That the BCR is the correct measure of assessing these things is fact, as set out in Government policy. In the same way it is a fact that VAT is 20%, or that we swap from BST to GMT next weekend. Naturally there are opinions that there are other potential ways of doing these things, but that doesn’t change the facts.
In any event, travelling by the T1 from Carmarthen to Aberystwyth now offers integrated ticketing with rail, an hourly service that connects with the train at each end, and electric buses. This is (in my opinion) the best solution for this route, and avoids what woould be an horrendous waste of taxpayers‘ money building a new railway line (at a huge cost of carbon, too)
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Having experienced the now-bus-worked Oxford-Cambridge X5 once (and it will only be once, I'm not going back, driving and the P&R is my new way into Oxford pending East West Rail opening) I'm not sure I agree that a rattly, toiletless urban bus is the solution for a two-hour trip. Decent quality electric coaches such as those used by Ember in Scotland might be a good option, though.
Yes, it's coach seated, but that doesn't solve the main comfort issues posed by low-floor buses and their lack of smooth suspension and body rigidity, and the absence of a toilet on long interurban runs.
That sort of bus is what would be suitable for e.g. a Conwy Valley service, not an interurban express. Indeed, wasn't that what they were ordered for until the idea was quietly dropped?
Last edited:
mike57
Established Member
Never use the word promise with the name of a politician in the same sentence...
Whitby - Scarborough is interesting as a quick check in 1955 shows a journey time of around 1h 10m +-. Current bus time (X93/4) is about 1 hr, many other lines closed in our area have significantly poorer journey times once the railway closed and buses took over, Scarborough Whitby is somewhat of an outlier in this respect. Driving time is around 40m. Current rail journey time is around 4.5 hrs with a fare (single anytime) of £69, and distance by road is 20 miles. Cycling using the cinder track (the old railway track) can be accomplished comfortably in less than 3 hours.
I assume the reversal required outside Scarborough didnt help its case, and assuming you are wanting to terminate in Whitby Town station a further reversal at West Cliff.
Kite159
Veteran Member
Next week, the same traveler tries to get from Colne to Skipton ignoring the bus.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
To be fair at least in the Welsh case the bus appears in the journey planner results. Colne-Skipton doesn't, it only gives you a silly long railway journey* on which there appear to be no useful Permitted Routes (no idea what the shortest is but it isn't any of the journey planner results on nationalrail.co.uk).
Edit: LNR's app seems to indicate the permitted route (presumably shortest) is changing at Accrington and Leeds.
* About 4 hours. Quicker to walk, certainly quicker to cycle.
BlueLeanie
On Moderation
Reading through this thread and a key missing point is the all urban 20mph policy in Wales.
Rail is the absolute saviour now with trains running at least 3x that speed all the way into centrally located stations. I can't imagine how awful the journey must be now on the bus with it dropping to 20mph every time the road goes through the 50 or so little villages that pepper the route.
Rail is the absolute saviour now with trains running at least 3x that speed all the way into centrally located stations. I can't imagine how awful the journey must be now on the bus with it dropping to 20mph every time the road goes through the 50 or so little villages that pepper the route.
quantinghome
Established Member
- Joined
- 1 Jun 2013
- Messages
- 2,907
I hope this is a joke.
There was no 'English' economy by the time the railways were built. It was thoroughly British.
Would you have preferred the coal not to have been shipped out of Wales? Did you have big plans to use it all?
I mean, you could make the exact same argument about any resource-rich area of the country being 'colonised' by, shock-horror, being able to sell its natural resources on an open market and make loads of money in the process. Was Yorkshire 'colonised'? The UK as a whole was a net exporter of coal for a century or more. Does that mean the UK has been colonised?
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Many Welsh rural routes don't do better than 40mph, thanks to sharp curves and gradients on cheaply-constructed alignments.
Much the same in darkest England/Scotland.
The Cambrian solution in Beeching's day was to close the many minor stations of the main line from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth and close all the branch lines.
The main line today has some decently fast stretches as a result.
The Cambrian coast section somehow escaped the closures and so has very slow journey times, and the Central Wales line is similar.
The Borderlands line is another escapee, where on the section in Wales you can almost see the next station from the one you are at, and line speed is 40mph (50mph on the Wirral).
Much the same in darkest England/Scotland.
The Cambrian solution in Beeching's day was to close the many minor stations of the main line from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth and close all the branch lines.
The main line today has some decently fast stretches as a result.
The Cambrian coast section somehow escaped the closures and so has very slow journey times, and the Central Wales line is similar.
The Borderlands line is another escapee, where on the section in Wales you can almost see the next station from the one you are at, and line speed is 40mph (50mph on the Wirral).
I can't see the purpose of reporting or actually taking that particular route from Carmarthen to Aberystwyth, unless you got that amount of time to spare and would like to enjoy the scenic railway journey. . For the life of me I can't see the relavance of comparing a 7 hour flight and a seven hour rail journey, after all the railways have a fixed infrastructure where as the plane can fly anywhere. In the interests of a fair comparison how long would a helicopter journey take from Carmarthen to Aberystwyth, 20 minutes may be?.
Falcon1200
Established Member
Surely a huge proportion of Welsh coal production was was either used in Wales' own industries, eg iron and steel works, or shipped out via the docks at, for example, Cardiff, Barry and Swansea?
And the week after, from Lockerbie to Dumfries, without using the bus or the train via England.
quantinghome
Established Member
- Joined
- 1 Jun 2013
- Messages
- 2,907
Some info here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/sites/themes/society/industry_coal02.shtml
It's not clear whether export meant export to the rest of the UK or overseas.
Merle Haggard
Established Member
The shipment coal went down to the docks on Welsh railways.
Amongst the largest owners of the mines, railways and docks were The Marquess of Bute and 'Davies the Ocean'.
(Clue: the Isle of Bute is not an English one and Davies is not an English surname.)
I know this is getting off topic...
The bus service between Uxbridge and the Great Western Main Line now's probably sufficient for what demand there is; a half-hourly bus to Slough (35 minutes) and Iver (25 minutes) and three bus routes to West Drayton taking 20-30 minutes, all at least four times an hour. Adding on ten minutes for West Drayton to Slough to around fifteen (going off of the current eleven for Greenford to West Ealing), rebuilding that line probably wouldn't be saving more than fifteen minutes compared to the bus to go from Uxbridge to Slough and further west anyway.
I've gone between Hemel Hempstead and Oxford by bus a few times and didn't notice any issues, but Aylesbury to Hemel and Oxford is only sixty or seventy minutes for each leg. I don't think the 724 Green Line buses have toilets either (although they probably should, as e.g. Hertford, Ware and Harlow to Heathrow's over three hours).
Doctor Fegg
Established Member
Absolutely. Fully get that.
I think my point is that the BBC should sometimes air other views rather than starting from a position that Government policy is de facto right. To take a parallel example, cycling organisations have been pointing out for a long time that (in their view) WebTAG doesn't give cycling and walking schemes a fair airing, even though it's the correct measure according to Government policy. I wouldn't expect the BBC simply to regurgitate the cycling/walking view without question, but likewise I think it's valid for them to say that although the Government decrees this is the way it's done, not everyone agrees with that.
robert thomas
Member
All urban routes are not 20mph. From my journeys round Wales in the past month most 30 & 40mph limits still persist and generally only side roads and the centres of some towns and villages have been reduced many of which were already 20mph due to the presence of schools.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That it's the measure that is used is certainly fact, but that it's the correct one is for debate. In particular I suspect it gives poor value to "soft" benefits like "it just being nicer to walk around without cars zooming around or kicking fumes out into your lungs".
This is also an issue with railway electrification project BCR.
I am not convinced by this comparison.
VAT at 20% and changing from BST to GMT are in primary legislation. Any change would have to be approved by parliament.
Yes, BCR is in HM Treasury Guidance, but Ministers don't have to follow that. A good example of Ministers not following guidance is from just over a year ago, the Truss/Kwarteng so called mini budget, that did not include an OBR forecast.
Is there some clause of some act that stipulates that BCR must be used, that puts it on the same legislative footing as VAT or BST/GMT?
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
The Bute dynasty, arguably the driving force behind the coal, railway and dock industries in south Wales in the 19th century, were in effect Scottish.
How does that fit your colonial theory?
The capital required would undoubtedly have come from London; much of it, as for the early railway industry itself, from the slave trade.
Last edited:
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
There are 13 Tory MPs in Wales, 21 Labour, 3 Plaid and 3 Independent.I think we all know which party is right now "clueless and crooked", and it doesn't have that much presence in Wales.
The blue area on the map is significantly bigger than the others.
List of MPs for constituencies in Wales (2019–present) - Wikipedia
No, the facts are that government policy says that the BCR is the correct measure to use. That does not make it fact that the BCR is the correct measure to use.
Details of how to calculate BCRs is set out in official Treasury guidance on how to demonstrate that public funds are used in a way that represents value for money. The details could be - and have been - changed. But any government will need a way to systematically compare the costs and benefits of different ways of spending public money. There is no reason why social “cohesion” could not represent a benefit. But you would need to set out what this is, how it can be measured, and provide good evidence on how far a particular scheme will increase it. (In fact this could be done under the present guidance as not all benefits need to be monetised as part of the BCR.) If Ministers wish do something where value for money has not been demonstrated they can do so but only on the basis of an explicit direction to the relevant budget holding civil servant.
The rich capitalist elite has always sat loose to national identity.
- Status