If BR had got its way with HST orders

[Helvellyn]

As ordered, the HST fleet was effectively five batches:

1. 27 2+7 sets for the Western Region (WR)
2. 32 2+8 sets for the Eastern Region (ER)
3. 14 2+7 sets for the WR
4. 18 2+7 sets for North East - South West (NE-SW) services
5. 4 2+8 sets for the ER

I know that various transfers and reformations happened, some before delivery with batches 3-5, but essentially this was what was ordered.

BR had wanted to originally order 42 sets for the ER in batch 2, but got Treasury approval for 32. Batch 5 was meant to be 7 sets, but only 4 got approved and it was this that persuaded BR to pursue no further orders. The plan, however, had been to look at:

• 18 2+7 sets for North West - South Coast (NW-SC) services
• An unspecified number of sets for Edinburgh-Glasgow services
• An unspecified number of sets for Newcatsle-Liverpool TransPennine services

A number of sets for Edinburgh-Glasgow services might have made sense due to the nature of the service, and the idea of competing with motorway traffic. I could have seen 2+6 sets (TF-TS-TS-TS-TS-TGS) for these services, and possibly similar for TransPennine. For the latter redeploying the 47/7s, Mark 3As and Mark 2F DBSOs to these services might have given an upgrade anyway.

What intrigues me though was the proposed 18 sets for NW-SC services because I don't think the loco-hauled "Scot" services from Glasgow/Edinburgh (via the WCML) to various South West and South Coast destinations came in until the mid-1980s after BR had abandoned ordering anymore HSTs, and was there a big Liverpool/Manchester to the South Coast market in the late 1970s/early 1980s that would have supported 18 HST sets? Or was the NW-SC label for this proposed batch a bit clumsy and BR had a wider set of services in mind?

 

[JonathanH]

Is this the sort of stuff now available in the national archives under the 30 year rule? If a business case was put to the government of the time, would it be available to see?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

As ordered, the HST fleet was effectively five batches:

1. 27 2+7 sets for the Western Region (WR)
2. 32 2+8 sets for the Eastern Region (ER)
3. 14 2+7 sets for the WR
4. 18 2+7 sets for North East - South West (NE-SW) services
5. 4 2+8 sets for the ER

I know that various transfers and reformations happened, some before delivery with batches 3-5, but essentially this was what was ordered.

BR had wanted to originally order 42 sets for the ER in batch 2, but got Treasury approval for 32. Batch 5 was meant to be 7 sets, but only 4 got approved and it was this that persuaded BR to pursue no further orders. The plan, however, had been to look at:

• 18 2+7 sets for North West - South Coast (NW-SC) services
• An unspecified number of sets for Edinburgh-Glasgow services
• An unspecified number of sets for Newcatsle-Liverpool TransPennine services

A number of sets for Edinburgh-Glasgow services might have made sense due to the nature of the service, and the idea of competing with motorway traffic. I could have seen 2+6 sets (TF-TS-TS-TS-TS-TGS) for these services, and possibly similar for TransPennine. For the latter redeploying the 47/7s, Mark 3As and Mark 2F DBSOs to these services might have given an upgrade anyway.

What intrigues me though was the proposed 18 sets for NW-SC services because I don't think the loco-hauled "Scot" services from Glasgow/Edinburgh (via the WCML) to various South West and South Coast destinations came in until the mid-1980s after BR had abandoned ordering anymore HSTs, and was there a big Liverpool/Manchester to the South Coast market in the late 1970s/early 1980s that would have supported 18 HST sets? Or was the NW-SC label for this proposed batch a bit clumsy and BR had a wider set of services in mind?

The ugly head of the Treasury rears itself again.

Does this mean that BR would have wanted HSTs on the London to Norwich services? Or did I get that wrong.

 

[Magdalia]

Is this the sort of stuff now available in the national archives under the 30 year rule? If a business case was put to the government of the time, would it be available to see?

The discussions of the Board and its various committees are available at Kew. I have looked at some of them, though not for research on HSTs.

BR had wanted to originally order 42 sets for the ER in batch 2

That's right. If BR had got all 42 sets the Deltics would have gone more quickly, with HSTs on the semi fasts.

I know that various transfers and reformations happened, some before delivery with batches 3-5, but essentially this was what was ordered.

Most important was the Midland Main Line going HST without any new orders. Existing sets were redeployed from the WR and ER by a mix of service cuts and tighter diagramming, particularly turnrounds at London termini.

The plan, however, had been to look at:

• 18 2+7 sets for North West - South Coast (NW-SC) services
• An unspecified number of sets for Edinburgh-Glasgow services
• An unspecified number of sets for Newcatsle-Liverpool TransPennine services

In my research I don't recall seeing anything like this, though it might be in a place where I've not looked.

But I'm sceptical, because HST operation was expensive in at least 3 ways:

• infrastructure costs, both upgrades and maintenance
• fuel
• train crew, with double manning then required for 125 mph

The North East/South West HSTs only stacked up because parts of the route overlapped with others that were already HST.

And BR by that stage was getting very good at motive power and rolling stock cascades to deliver improvements in a cost effective way. For example the class 47/7s for Edinburgh-Glasgow were ordered in 1977 using class 47/4s displaced by WR HSTs, and Liverpool Street-Norwich got aircon stock displaced by the West of England HST order. Any gains from using HSTs, on top of those improvements, would have been marginal. And its worth noting that Liverpool-Newcastle never even progressed to aircons.

and it was this that persuaded BR to pursue no further orders

The ugly head of the Treasury rears itself again.

The 1979 General Election result was the key factor. It quickly became clear that getting any new investment was going to be even more difficult than before.

 

[gg1]

As ordered, the HST fleet was effectively five batches:

1. 27 2+7 sets for the Western Region (WR)
2. 32 2+8 sets for the Eastern Region (ER)
3. 14 2+7 sets for the WR
4. 18 2+7 sets for North East - South West (NE-SW) services
5. 4 2+8 sets for the ER

Were the 2+9 sets (with both a buffet and kitchen car) which operated on the ECML in the early 80s not part of the original order specification?

 

[hexagon789]

Were the 2+9 sets (with both a buffet and kitchen car) which operated on the ECML in the early 80s not part of the original order specification?

They were 2+8, 2+9 was a short lived extension in 1981-ish using spare vehicles intended for XC services.

 

[gg1]

They were 2+8, 2+9 was a short lived extension in 1981-ish using spare vehicles intended for XC services.

Ah okay, I thought 2+9 was longer lasting than that.

 

[Magdalia]

When new, 20 of the 32 ER HST sets had 2 catering cars in a 2+8 formation.

That was quite quickly reduced to 11 then in the mid 1980s to just the 2 Pullman sets.

 

[hexagon789]

Ah okay, I thought 2+9 was longer lasting than that.

GNER extended its sets to 2+9 in the mid-2000s, but under BR the only other regular use of 2+9 sets was the Tyne-Tees Pullman set HT34 which was made up to 2+9 in 1988 The other ECML Pullman HST set (the Yorkshire Pullman) remained 2+8.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Oct 2023 ==

When new, 20 of the 32 ER HST sets had 2 catering cars in a 2+8 formation.

That was quite quickly reduced to 11 then in the mid 1980s to just the 2 Pullman sets.

Same with the earliest WR 253s, though twin catering vehicles lasted months there - on the ER/ScR it lasted about 6 years.

 

[43096]

The original plan for HST deliveries, what was ordered and what was actually delivered was as follows:

Route	Planned	Ordered	Delivered
Western Region Bristol/South Wales	27	27	27
East Coast	42	32	32
Western Region Plymouth/Penzance	16	14	13
East Coast additional	0	4	5
CrossCountry	36	18	18
Midland Main Line	10	0	0
Trans-Pennine/Edinburgh-Glasgow	30	0	0
Total	161	95	95

 

[Trainbike46]

The discussions of the Board and its various committees are available at Kew. I have looked at some of them, though not for research on HSTs.

That's right. If BR had got all 42 sets the Deltics would have gone more quickly, with HSTs on the semi fasts.


Most important was the Midland Main Line going HST without any new orders. Existing sets were redeployed from the WR and ER by a mix of service cuts and tighter diagramming, particularly turnrounds at London termini.


In my research I don't recall seeing anything like this, though it might be in a place where I've not looked.

But I'm sceptical, because HST operation was expensive in at least 3 ways:

• infrastructure costs, both upgrades and maintenance
• fuel
• train crew, with double manning then required for 125 mph

The North East/South West HSTs only stacked up because parts of the route overlapped with others that were already HST.

And BR by that stage was getting very good at motive power and rolling stock cascades to deliver improvements in a cost effective way. For example the class 47/7s for Edinburgh-Glasgow were ordered in 1977 using class 47/4s displaced by WR HSTs, and Liverpool Street-Norwich got aircon stock displaced by the West of England HST order. Any gains from using HSTs, on top of those improvements, would have been marginal. And its worth noting that Liverpool-Newcastle never even progressed to aircons.





The 1979 General Election result was the key factor. It quickly became clear that getting any new investment was going to be even more difficult than before.

Is this referring to Kew Gardens? and if so, why does Kew gardens hold railway records

 

[GusB]

Is this referring to Kew Gardens? and if so, why does Kew gardens hold railway records

The National Archives are at Kew.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

In a particularly optimistic scenario HSTs were suggested as possible traction for Waterloo-Exeter! And probably North Trans-Pennine too!

 

[Magdalia]

Is this referring to Kew Gardens? and if so, why does Kew gardens hold railway records

Sort of!

The National Archives building is on the South bank of the River Thames at Kew next to the railway bridge that carries the District Line and Overground trains over the river. The National Archives building is visible from the line and the nearest station is Kew Gardens.

 

[Bevan Price]

For a very short time, Liverpool / Newcastle did get at least one diagram using Air-Con stock, but that soon reverted to non aircon stock. Sorry, cannot remember the dates and how long it lasted.

 

[randyrippley]

In a particularly optimistic scenario HSTs were suggested as possible traction for Waterloo-Exeter! And probably North Trans-Pennine too!

Only half sets cascaded by electrication of ECML and NE—SW

 

[hexagon789]

Only half sets cascaded by electrication of ECML and NE—SW

Full and half-sets were both potential options; both were seriously considered.

The 'half-set' with driving trailer idea of course came to nothing anywhere, and the economic downturn coupled with a perceived over-order of 158s saw those 'surplus' 158s converted to 159s and then sent to the WoE.

 

[JonathanH]

The 'half-set' with driving trailer idea of course came to nothing anywhere, and the economic downturn coupled with a perceived over-order of 158s saw those 'surplus' 158s converted to 159s and then sent to the WoE.

The Intercity Sector had no problems finding uses for the HSTs freed up by ECML electrification. It isn't clear why giving them up to NSE for the West of England line could ever have been a practical solution without some sort of new build on the Intercity routes, and Intercity 250 was only an embryonic idea at the time.

 

[Clarence Yard]

NSE were going to build the end door version of the Turbos for the W of E - the 171 units and it was the 1990 BR financial crisis that saw an end to that idea. The 159 project replaced them in the Railplan.

I don’t think NSE ever seriously considered HST sets.

 

[randyrippley]

NSE were going to build the end door version of the Turbos for the W of E - the 171 units and it was the 1990 BR financial crisis that saw an end to that idea. The 159 project replaced them in the Railplan.

I don’t think NSE ever seriously considered HST sets.

It was a pre-NSE plan by BR as part of the cascade masterplan using units released by ongoing ECML/NE-SW/MML electrification,
Half sets on Waterloo-Exeter, Bristol-Soton, trans-Pennine and Cardiff-Crewe

 

[Helvellyn]

It was a pre-NSE plan by BR as part of the cascade masterplan using units released by ongoing ECML/NE-SW/MML electrification,
Half sets on Waterloo-Exeter, Bristol-Soton, trans-Pennine and Cardiff-Crewe

Exactly. Any business case for electrification, rolling or otherwise, would have to demonstrate to the Treasury that HSTs that were anything but life expired would have a home after displacement.