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Tube extensions

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The0

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I had a idea that will probably never happen but it wouldn't it be cool if every other train on the District line from Edgware Road went under the SWR tracks at Wimbledon, joined on to the thameslink line and ran down to Sutton.

It would be cheaper than tram extension (maybe)

Faster

More capacity

And a decent service.

Probably won't happen but would be cool
 
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avid2424

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The very initial proposal before the line was built was to build it as a “District Line” extension. However there was much rivalry and the outcome was that it commenced and stayed as a main line railway. A Google search would pick up the full detail
 

JonathanH

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I had a idea that will probably never happen but it wouldn't it be cool if every other train on the District line from Edgware Road went under the SWR tracks at Wimbledon, joined on to the thameslink line and ran down to Sutton.
That is a train every twenty minutes from Wimbledon to Sutton than one every thirty minutes off peak.

I assume that the Thameslink service would be removed from the Wimbledon to Sutton route?

Why? Linespeed wouldn't change.

It might be faster to Fulham, but not central London.

More capacity
Does S-stock have more capacity than a 700? What about the capacity at Wimbledon if people off the Sutton loop fill the train up before it gets there?

Probably won't happen
Indeed. Not least if the space to burrow under the main lines at Wimbledon is one day needed for Crossrail 2, however distant that may be.

Realistically it doesn't add enough for the cost, as passengers can already interchange at Wimbledon.
 

The0

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That is a train every twenty minutes from Wimbledon to Sutton than one every thirty minutes off peak.

I assume that the Thameslink service would be removed from the Wimbledon to Sutton route?


Why? Linespeed wouldn't change.

It might be faster to Fulham, but not central London.


Does S-stock have more capacity than a 700? What about the capacity at Wimbledon if people off the Sutton loop fill the train up before it gets there?


Indeed. Not least if the space to burrow under the main lines at Wimbledon is one day needed for Crossrail 2, however distant that may be.

Realistically it doesn't add enough for the cost, as passengers can already interchange at Wimbledon.
Sorry I wasn't clear I was talking about faster and better capacity than a tram
 

Sad Sprinter

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I must have missed this - who is proposing a tram from Wimbledon to Sutton?

It was proposed a few years ago by TfL, but seems to have gone nowhere.

I agree with the OP that the Wimbledon to Sutton line needs sorting out. It's hopeless. But a District Line branch would provide a very long journey to Central London. If Crossrail 2 was being built I'd prefer to see it lumped in with SWR and run into Waterloo.
 

JonathanH

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I must have missed this - who is proposing a tram from Wimbledon to Sutton?
There were proposals in 2020 based on three possible routes, one of which involved the existing Wimbledon to Sutton railway line.

https://insidecroydon.com/2020/02/11/tfl-backs-sutton-tram-link-but-lacks-420m-to-pay-for-it/
TfL backs Sutton Tram Link – but lacks £420m to pay for it

Posted on February 11, 2020 by insidecroydon

Transport for London has plumped for a tram extension that links Sutton town centre with the Northern Line Tube at Colliers Wood.

But they just don’t have the £420million needed to pay for it just yet.

The outcome of a lengthy deliberation of a public consultation was published by TfL last night, with the transport authority opting for what appears to be a compromise option, and certainly not the route favoured by Sutton council leader Ruth Dombey’s LibDems, who were keener on a tram link to Wimbledon which will have also served their multi-million-pound “cancer hub” at Belmont.

It will now be for the councils in Sutton and Merton to find at least half the budget to build any tram link – including a potentially costly new bridge across the existing tram lines at Belgrave Walk – before the scheme will be given a green light. And with TfL budgets groaning under the strain of the over-running CrossRail project, that’s not likely to be any time very soon.

The south London tram network celebrates its 20th anniversary this year, but despite its success in providing an east-west public transport link from Beckenham to Wimbledon via Croydon, it has yet to have any major extensions to celebrate.


The two rejected options – 1 and 3 – with Sutton Link option 2 – in dark blue – getting the nod as a tram route

In ooutlining the options in its consultation, TfL estimated that Option 2 could cost £420million.

In releasing its report on the consultation – which concluded nearly a year ago – TfL stated: “While some of the funding to deliver the project is currently in place, other sources of funding need to be confirmed if the project is to move forward. We are continuing to work with the London Boroughs of Sutton and Merton to explore options for obtaining the remaining funding needed.

“We are also considering how we can collectively access national sources of funding.” In other words: potless.

One significant outcome from the TfL report is the decision to go with a tram extension rather than what they called a “bus rapid transit”, or BRT. The BRT was thought to be TfL’s preferred option, simply on grounds of lower costs – the bus would run on road segregated from traffic where possible, not on rails, though each BRT could carry fewer passengers than the tram.

Of nearly 6,000 responses to the TfL consultation, 86 per cent were in favour of some form of “Sutton Link”, but the overwhelming majority of those favouring a tram, with only 40 per cent supporting the BRT.

The TfL report notes that, “Some of the key reasons informing this route preference are that it has the greatest transport benefits; is the most effective option at regenerating the areas served and supporting new homes; and has fewer delivery challenges compared to the other routes.

“While delivering as a tram is more expensive, compared to the Bus Rapid Transit alternative it has greater transport benefits; enables more new homes; has greater potential for funding; and has much greater support from respondents to the consultation.”

And the report’s authors warn: “If there is a substantial delay to securing funding for the project then this decision would need to be reviewed to identify whether anything has changed which would influence the decision.”

There is a map on that page which I can't copy.

I agree with the OP that the Wimbledon to Sutton line needs sorting out. It's hopeless.
In what sense is it hopeless?
 

ATS3

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I had a idea that will probably never happen but it wouldn't it be cool if every other train on the District line from Edgware Road went under the SWR tracks at Wimbledon, joined on to the thameslink line and ran down to Sutton.

It would be cheaper than tram extension (maybe)

Faster

More capacity

And a decent service.

Probably won't happen but would be cool
Not really, the service atm is already slow enough on the slow lines, adding a extra hour to get into the center would make people on that line very unhappy.
 

philosopher

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In what sense is it hopeless?
Too infrequent, too indirect to Central London

When I was living between Tooting and Earlsfield, I avoided the Sutton Thameslink loop as I tended to find it just too slow and infrequent. The SWR train from Earlsfield or tube from Tooting Broadway was almost always quicker. The frequency at two per hour is poor for a London commuter line and the route it takes to Central London seemed somewhat indirect.

Perhaps using it would have made sense if my final destination was very close to Blackfriars, City Thameslink or Farringdon, but I hardly ever travelled to those destinations.

However I am not really sure anything can done to speed it up. I assume improving frequencies would involving reducing frequencies elsewhere.
 

mr_jrt

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It was intended that upon completion of the Thameslink 2000 project that the Sutton loop would see frequencies doubled, the cost being the loss of the through service. This is one of the reasons why the bays at Blackfriars were moved to the west side - to terminate the Sutton services. Local politics got involved and the result is what we have today - a poor through service.
 

Sad Sprinter

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It was intended that upon completion of the Thameslink 2000 project that the Sutton loop would see frequencies doubled, the cost being the loss of the through service. This is one of the reasons why the bays at Blackfriars were moved to the west side - to terminate the Sutton services. Local politics got involved and the result is what we have today - a poor through service.

I wonder if they tried to placate them by turning the service over to Overground would have worked.
 

NSE

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The often mooted extension is not for the District line but rather the Northern from Morden. The depot comes right up toward the bottom of the embankment of the tracks at Morden South. The idea being it takes the line to Sutton from there. The two questions I don’t know the answer to are

- Where would it terminate at Sutton? One assumes the only logical option would be to dive underground and terminate in an underground terminus. This would be astronomical cost wise.
- What would happen to Wimbledon Chase and South Merton, and Morden South as I don’t know if the Northern would stop there due the new tracks to take it up from the depot.
 
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