Caught donutting

[mistakemaker]

Hi this morning I was caught doughnut ting and purchased a ticket from Bedford to flitwick when I was actually going all the way to Brighton. I must have done this at least 40 times over the last two years. The ticket inspector printed out something called a GTREM and after taking my details told me to wait for a summons by post. Is it worth it prematurely going to Manak solicitors before the letters even comes or should I have hope. I know there’s not point me explaining that I’m an undergrad student who has to commute to go to university in Brighton but I hope you guys understand that I had no malicious intent in doing this.

 

[John R]

What do you mean you had no malicious intent? You knew perfectly well that you were avoiding paying almost all of the appropriate fare, so there was clearly criminal intent, which is all the authorities will be interested in.

Anyway, to help you understand your situation better, did you buy your tickets online, and if so, did the inspector take details of your account?

If they are aware of the previous offences, any out of court settlement is likely to be substantial, based on the full undiscounted fare between Bedford and Brighton. (£51.60 for each single journey), together with an administration fee. That could easily be a couple of thousand pounds, and if you are offered it you will have to pay in full immediately, so it is worth considering how you can have the funds available to meet that.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Welcome to the forum!

Consulting with solicitors might be advisable. The situation in which you now find yourself could well be rather expensive.

As @Brissle Girl has just observed, an Anytime Day Single from Bedford to Brighton is now over £50 and if you've been incorrectly paying / short faring for such a long time, the amount of unpaid fares due, will add up, in addition to any admin and investigation costs added on top.

Whilst you're not required to self-incriminate yourself, if you've bought your tickets online (through Trainline or the suchlike) the train company's investigation team will soon be able to readily ascertain the extent of your under paying.

Good luck, reckon that you're going to need some.

 

[Titfield]

My advice would be, based on the advice given to many posters previously, to await the arrival of the letter from the TOC and then post it on here with all personal identifiers obscured (redacted).

In the meantime can you post the GTREM with all personal details obscured?

Advice tailored to the OPs specific circumstances can then be given.

I would also suggest to guide you (but do not post on here) that you draw up a list of all the dates you have not paid the correct fare so you can at least get some idea of the amount of the settlement "requested" should you be offered one. The amount would be based on the anytime day single with no allowance for any railcard held or payments made for the tickets actually purchased. An administration fee would be added on top.

 

[WesternLancer]

I guess whilst you wait to hear from the train operator you could get Manak to give you a quote for help if you decide you need assistance from a solicitor. You would at least then know what you are lined up for.

But also if you are a student you could see is the student union (SU) has a 'deal' with a firm of solicitors that could help you for a reduced fee. You could use time now to seek SU advice or help or find out what might be available.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

We are seeing lots of short faring and doughnutting cases at the moment. I cannot agree that you had no malicious intent - evading your fare on at least 40 occasions is not an accidental or inadvertent error. It is something you absolutely knew you were doing.

Can you upload a copy of the report you were given by the inspector (with any personal or case reference details redacted). It would also be helpful to know how you purchase your tickets - online/through an app, at a station ticket office or at a station ticket machine? Also what exactly did the inspector say to you and what did you say in response?

In my view I don't think there's any point in speaking with a solicitor at this stage. I would wait and see what GTR's letter says and then decide whether or not to engage professional advice.

If you upload a copy of the letter when it arrives (with personal details redacted) we can advise further.

 

[mistakemaker]

Hi @Hadders would you mind private messaging me so that we could discuss the issue from your experience point

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Hi @Hadders would you mind private messaging me so that we could discuss the issue from your experience point

Private messaging is inappropriate as regards dealing with 'Disputes & Prosecutions' related matters and is not in accordance with forum policy. See info below.

Noted that you've already started your own separate thread, you could always ask the question on there, but obviously in open forum.

Offering advice on disputes away from the main forum. Please read.

Good afternoon everyone, An issue has come up in a post in this thread that we’d like to take a moment to clarify. Probably for fairly obvious reasons we are not particularly comfortable with a situation like that happening away from the main forum. We would always expect members who want to...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Hadders]

Hi @Hadders would you mind private messaging me so that we could discuss the issue from your experience point

The forum works best thanks to the collective experience of many members who freely give their advice to people who ask for assistance. We do not offer advice 'off forum'.

 

[mistakemaker]

In total counting every single evasion and removing what I’ve already payed it comes up to £2037. I have also sought Manak the solicitor and payed him those legal fees. I’m unsure if they will be willing to take out what I’ve already payed as the evasion was exactly 78 times over from Jan 2022- oct 2023. I am a uni student and due to financial costs I couldn’t even pay to live Brighton and have to make the commute from Bedford to Brighton . This is why i shortfared, it’s no excuse just an explanation.

How much do we roughly think I need to look for cause I’m honestly broke right now ?

 

[Hadders]

In total counting every single evasion and removing what I’ve already payed it comes up to £2037. I have also sought Manak the solicitor and payed him those legal fees. I’m unsure if they will be willing to take out what I’ve already payed as the evasion was exactly 78 times over from Jan 2022- oct 2023. I am a uni student and due to financial costs I couldn’t even pay to live Brighton and have to make the commute from Bedford to Brighton . This is why i shortfared, it’s no excuse just an explanation.

How much do we roughly think I need to look for cause I’m honestly broke right now ?

This is fare evasion on an industrial scale, my view is that if something like this doesn't end up in court how serious should the level of offending be before it does?

That said, if you do arrange to agree a settlement with GTR you cannot expect any credit at all for the fares you have already paid them. You are normally have to pay the full Anytime fare as if no ticket was held. The Anytime Day Single fare is £51.60 although they might allow the Anytime Day Return fare to be used which costs £77.60. The amount has to be paid in full, there isn't normally an opportunity to pay in instalments.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

In total counting every single evasion and removing what I’ve already payed it comes up to £2037. I have also sought Manak the solicitor and payed him those legal fees. I’m unsure if they will be willing to take out what I’ve already payed as the evasion was exactly 78 times over from Jan 2022- oct 2023. I am a uni student and due to financial costs I couldn’t even pay to live Brighton and have to make the commute from Bedford to Brighton . This is why i shortfared, it’s no excuse just an explanation.

How much do we roughly think I need to look for cause I’m honestly broke right now ?

I appreciate that this will not be what you want to hear, but the railway will want to recover all the fares, plus the cost of their investigation. It's also quite likely that they will want you to pay extra to discourage you from doing it again: that might be in the form of an inflated administration fee, or it might be through taking you to court and letting the court fine you. So start at the (full) fares you have calculated, and expect to add something above £500 (potentially substantially above) to that.

It sounds as if you are now employing a solicitor. I think your best bet is to accept that there is no cheap solution to this, and work with your solicitor rather than us (a bunch of amateurs on the internet). To be honest, we are rather out of our depth and a professional may do better.

 

[mistakemaker]

It’s just because I noticed another thread where sometime had evaded at least 200 times over a span of 5 months and their settlement was inherently cheaper than they expected. I’m guessing that you’re saying mine is worse because it was over a year period ?

Might I also mention that even though I counted 78 times at least 30 of those evasion was smaller scales evasion that were like £3.30 if you don’t count what I already payed towards it

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2023 ==

This is fare evasion on an industrial scale, my view is that if something like this doesn't end up in court how serious should the level of offending be before it does?

That said, if you do arrange to agree a settlement with GTR you cannot expect any credit at all for the fares you have already paid them. You are normally have to pay the full Anytime fare as if no ticket was held. The Anytime Day Single fare is £51.60 although they might allow the Anytime Day Return fare to be used which costs £77.60. The amount has to be paid in full, there isn't normally an opportunity to pay in instalments.

When you say they might allow the anytime day return fare do you mean that each journey either way would be £77 ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2023 ==

This is fare evasion on an industrial scale, my view is that if something like this doesn't end up in court how serious should the level of offending be before it does?

That said, if you do arrange to agree a settlement with GTR you cannot expect any credit at all for the fares you have already paid them. You are normally have to pay the full Anytime fare as if no ticket was held. The Anytime Day Single fare is £51.60 although they might allow the Anytime Day Return fare to be used which costs £77.60. The amount has to be paid in full, there isn't normally an opportunity to pay in instalments.

I’m asking because the 78 times was me counting like the journeys both ways even if I bought a return ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2023 ==

It’s just because I noticed another thread where sometime had evaded at least 200 times over a span of 5 months and their settlement was inherently cheaper than they expected. I’m guessing that you’re saying mine is worse because it was over a year period ?

Might I also mention that even though I counted 78 times at least 30 of those evasion was smaller scales evasion that were like £3.30 if you don’t count what I already payed towards it

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2023 ==


When you say they might allow the anytime day return fare do you mean that each journey either way would be £77 ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2023 ==


I’m asking because the 78 times was me counting like the journeys both ways even if I bought a return ticket.

I’ve already read on a few of these threads that Govia thameslink are usually a bit more lenient to settling out of court ?

 

[skyhigh]

Might I also mention that even though I counted 78 times at least 30 of those evasion was smaller scales evasion that were like £3.30 if you don’t count what I already payed towards it

If anything that's worse. It shows a totally premeditated behaviour with no rationale beyond evading as many fares as possible.

 

[John R]

A problem you will have is convincing the investigators that some of the instances were evasions of relatively trivial value, particularly if you always bought the same short fare. They can only see the tickets you bought, not where you travelled to and from. But they do know that they caught you on a long and expensive journey from Bedford to Brighton, and a look at your purchasing history throws up many other potential cases of short faring.

 

[mistakemaker]

So I’ve already completed the spreadsheet that Manak solicitors asked me to of every offence single offence committed. Although I’m not sure if as a solicitor he will just immediately tell them of all the offences or wait to see which offences they level against me.

 

[Hadders]

When you say they might allow the anytime day return fare do you mean that each journey either way would be £77 ?

Yes.

I’ve already read on a few of these threads that Govia thameslink are usually a bit more lenient to settling out of court ?

In my experience they are more lenient than, for example, Transport for London or Chiltern. That doesn’t mean that they won’t take a harsher line in your case.

On balance, I think you will get a settlement but it will cost.

 

[WesternLancer]

When you say they might allow the anytime day return fare do you mean that each journey either way would be £77 ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2023 ==

I take it to mean that a return journey (there and back) might be a total of £77.60.

But I'm afraid you may be clutching at straws here - they usually start with asking for the Anytime single fare (so there and back would be 2x £51.60) - the logic being that a day return is a discounted ticket to try and make things more affordable / attractive for the passenger - whereas you have forfeited that by evading a fare so they need to make what happens now punitive - or why buy a ticket again in future if when you get caught you just get asked for the discounted price anyway. I'm sure you understand the logic from their point of view.

So you need to prepare in your mind for a sum (if they offer it) that is the higher fare rather than the lower fare.

However, it does look like you have engaged a solicitor and with luck there is a good chance of them getting you a settlement I would hope, from Thameslink.

Having grown up there I know how unaffordable Brighton is (but the railway won't be interested in that or if they were would simply say that you should have gone to uni somewhere you could afford to travel to or live in) - but as a wider advice, have you sought help from the uni hardship fund etc (more for your general costs / legit travel costs than for the help with the possible results of this investigation tho that may be something the uni would take into account).

Good luck with this of course.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2023 ==

So I’ve already completed the spreadsheet that Manak solicitors asked me to of every offence single offence committed. Although I’m not sure if as a solicitor he will just immediately tell them of all the offences or wait to see which offences they level against me.

I would expect them to act in your best interests and to get the least worst outcome they can (eg avoid court / keep costs of settlement as low as they think they can)

 

[mistakemaker]

Alright I guess it’s just a waiting game from here and I have to see what they’re willing to do for me. Thank you guys so much for helping me despite my own stupidity. Also could some please explain to me exactly how these administration fees works cause I thought that the highest GTR give is £300. At least that’s what Manak solicitors told me to prepare for ?

 

[WesternLancer]

Alright I guess it’s just a waiting game from here and I have to see what they’re willing to do for me. Thank you guys so much for helping me despite my own stupidity. Also could some please explain to me exactly how these administration fees works cause I thought that the highest GTR give is £300. At least that’s what Manak solicitors told me to prepare for ?

I think the 'admin fee' is meant to generally reflect the time taken to investigate things by them - think the salary of the person, the hours / complexity of investigating your case at that salary, proportion of costs like a building for staff to work in, computers for them to use etc etc - but I guess Manak have a view on the cases they see and gave you that number based on experience. In some ways your case is not over complex, as you presumably just repeatedly did the same sort of evasion - but they will have been checking on line ticket purchase records etc - it all takes time and as they say 'time is money'....

 

[mistakemaker]

I think the 'admin fee' is meant to generally reflect the time taken to investigate things by them - think the salary of the person, the hours / complexity of investigating your case at that salary, proportion of costs like a building for staff to work in, computers for them to use etc etc - but I guess Manak have a view on the cases they see and gave you that number based on experience. In some ways your case is not over complex, as you presumably just repeatedly did the same sort of evasion - but they will have been checking on line ticket purchase records etc - it all takes time and as they say 'time is money'....

So in your experience would you say that on top of the repair fares and the administration fee that they would also add a penalty fee or are they unlikely to do that. And if so can the penalty fee be more than £100 ?

 

[John R]

So in your experience would you say that on top of the repair fares and the administration fee that they would also add a penalty fee or are they unlikely to do that. And if so can the penalty fee be more than £100 ?

I don't think they split it out. It's the fares avoided plus an administration fee. You can try arguing with the amount of fee on the grounds that it is too much or contains a undue penal element, but you run the risk of the offer being withdrawn and them proceeding to court. A court case is likely to involve higher costs too if you are found guilty.

 

[WesternLancer]

So in your experience would you say that on top of the repair fares and the administration fee that they would also add a penalty fee or are they unlikely to do that. And if so can the penalty fee be more than £100 ?

I'm sorry - I don't know - but the point is - look at it from their point of view - there has to be an element of 'punishment' about this for you or after all why would you not just do it again until you are caught next time (and given the times you got away with it before being caught - the statistical chances of being caught are such that you fare evaded a lot of times before being caught).

If it went to court there are sentencing guidelines that mean you can work out the sorts of sums you would end up paying (sometimes details in other threads) - but that is not the case for an out of court settlement.

I suspect you can't really estimate now what they will want - but it's not going to be cheap for what you have done I fear.

What you do need to do is probably to talk to family about how they may be able to help you access funds (or other methods eg from your student finances), to pay if you get offered a settlement, as it's a one off offer that has to be met in full and promptly.

EDIT - note helpful reply to this from @Brissle Girl

 

[mistakemaker]

I don't think they split it out. It's the fares avoided plus an administration fee. You can try arguing with the amount of fee on the grounds that it is too much or contains an undue penal element, but you run the risk of the offer being withdrawn and them proceeding to court. A court case is likely to involve higher costs too if you are found guilty.

Yeh I understand but what I’m wondering is if the admin fee is separate from the penalty fee or if it’s included in what they call admin so just the fares avoided as well as an admin fee

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2023 ==

I'm sorry - I don't know - but the point is - look at it from their point of view - there has to be an element of 'punishment' about this for you or after all why would you not just do it again until you are caught next time (and given the times you got away with it before being caught - the statistical chances of being caught are such that you fare evaded a lot of times before being caught).

If it went to court there are sentencing guidelines that mean you can work out the sorts of sums you would end up paying (sometimes details in other threads) - but that is not the case for an out of court settlement.

I suspect you can't really estimate now what they will want - but it's not going to be cheap for what you have done I fear.

What you do need to do is probably to talk to family about how they may be able to help you access funds (or other methods eg from your student finances), to pay if you get offered a settlement, as it's a one off offer that has to be met in full and promptly.

EDIT - note helpful reply to this from @Brissle Girl

Ohh I see what you’re saying . They want the amount that would make you not want to do it again ?

 

[WesternLancer]

Yeh I understand but what I’m wondering is if the admin fee is separate from the penalty fee or if it’s included in what they call admin so just the fares avoided as well as an admin fee

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2023 ==


Ohh I see what you’re saying . They want the amount that would make you not want to do it again ?

Basically I think you are muddling up what has happened to you with what you have probably seen on posters at stations about 'Penalty Fares' (PFs) - a PF is a sum of £100 reduced to £50 for prompt payment for people who have made a basic ticketing error and is issued at the discretion of the railway company - it is not something you are entitled to receive. And it is not the standard 'punishment' for every fare evader out there - esp for deliberate and planned fare evasion.

I do not think you were issued with a PF so these sums are not relevant to the situation you have got yourself into so probably not worth you spending much time thinking about the £100 figure really.

So I suspect this is where you are:

The punishment for deliberate fare evasion (what you did multiple times) is dealt with as a criminal matter via prosecution in a court - that results in a court punishment and criminal record. This is what you potentially face - albeit worst case scenario, you pay a fine to the court (the govt) - related by formula to your income and potentially payable in installments, you pay damages to the victim (the railway) to reflect their loss, a victim surcharge, and you pay their costs in taking you to court I think - if you are found guilty - which you would be I would think - you probably already admitted your guilt when they found you did not have a ticket for the part of the journey you were on.

But

The railway company might (but it is not guaranteed, although Thameslink often seem to be prepared to offer them) offer you an 'out of court settlement' - essentially a sum you pay them so they do not take you to court. The least worst outcome for you. Within reason they can probably ask you for what they want as part of this - after all if you don't like it you can 'see them in court' as they have all they need to prosecute you - where the magistrate will decide what happens and the punishment relates to the sentencing guidelines etc as I mention above.

I would imagine that the solicitor you have asked to help you is seeking to get you an offer of an out of court settlement.

Does this make sense in relation to the discussion you have had with your solicitor?

Hope it helps. But I would say look again at posts 11 & 12 to reflect on where this could be going and what sums you might be talking about needing to pay (tho they might be way less than Brighton's over inflated rents....)

If at all possible, and for your future career etc - I do think you are best focusing on avoiding getting a criminal record, even if that is at a cost that seems high now in your present financial circs.

 

[Camsus]

This is fare evasion on an industrial scale, my view is that if something like this doesn't end up in court how serious should the level of offending be before it does?

That said, if you do arrange to agree a settlement with GTR you cannot expect any credit at all for the fares you have already paid them. You are normally have to pay the full Anytime fare as if no ticket was held. The Anytime Day Single fare is £51.60 although they might allow the Anytime Day Return fare to be used which costs £77.60. The amount has to be paid in full, there isn't normally an opportunity to pay in instalments.

I can only relay the experience my friend had with GTR earlier this year after stupidly avoiding fares over a few months. They opted to use a solicitor but not Manak's.
GTR provided a spreadsheet of all dates where fares had been avoided, featuring the fares that had been paid and the actual fares for the journeys that had been made. Return fares were applied by GTR and they also used off-peak fares where appropriate.
The fares that had been paid were deducted from the correct fares, leaving the difference outstanding. Costs of £300 were also charged

 

[Hadders]

I can only relay the experience my friend had with GTR earlier this year after stupidly avoiding fares over a few months. They opted to use a solicitor but not Manak's.
GTR provided a spreadsheet of all dates where fares had been avoided, featuring the fares that had been paid and the actual fares for the journeys that had been made. Return fares were applied by GTR and they also used off-peak fares where appropriate.
The fares that had been paid were deducted from the correct fares, leaving the difference outstanding. Costs of £300 were also charged

GTR are one of the more reasonable train companies. No two cases are ever quite the same and although they appear to have taken a very lenient stance in your case, this cannot be relied upon for every case.

My

 

[Islineclear3_1]

As an aside to the OP; isn't there somewhere you can rent closer to Brighton? Surely rents are a bit cheaper in say, Portslade, Shoreham or Newhaven (?) And save on travel time too...