UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[AndrewE]

If people are worried about the availability of lithium and batteries generally, then they need to support the initiative to ban disposable electrical things - e.g. a million vapes a day, apparently, containing rechargable batteries... why?
That alone would "fuel" several cars...
Time to start taxing resource consumption (and take it off employment, aka National Insurance) which would drive recycling and put a stop to the sheer waste of the materials going into disposable stuff.

 

[birchesgreen]

I would be stunned if it was sub £10k in the UK. The Ami (which has a top speed of 28mph and range of about 40 miles) is around £7500.

The Chinese price is roughly £8k so by the time you add transport, taxes and import tariffs I'd expect it to be over £10k. It won't be an expensive car though.

Oh yes i expect it to be around 12K once all the taxes and fees apply, still very good though.

 

[skyhigh]

then they need to support the initiative to ban disposable electrical things - e.g. a million vapes a day, apparently, containing rechargable batteries... why?

Stuff like that baffles me. Poundland were, for a while, selling single use portable phone chargers containing rechargeable cells and charge circuitry but no charge socket.

Lithium battery fires from electricals put in recycling/household waste bins is a much bigger issue than EV fires.

 

[jon0844]

Oh yes i expect it to be around 12K once all the taxes and fees apply, still very good though.

The Indian e-C3 is about £12k and we're getting a version nearer £21k (but it IS quite a bit different design and spec wise), but I'd say the BYD will likely be closer to £20k than £10k when it arrives. It may well be a variant with a better spec to compensate for the price rise.

The BYD Atto 3, and indeed the Ora Cat, were quite a lot more expensive here than their Chinese versions.

 

[birchesgreen]

I think it will be less than that but we'll just have to see.

 

[jon0844]

Manufacturers aren't going to go in too cheap, so assuming they can make it cheaper than Citroën, a good target might be £18-19k.

I honestly can't see anyone going too cheap, given ICE cars are expensive these days too.

China can buy market share through low prices, but there's no need to go crazy. If others come in and trigger a price war, there needs to be some margin to play with.

 

[bspahh]

https://www.licarco.com/byd-atto-3 says that the extended range BYD Atto 3 was sold in China for 147,800 CNY (£16,640). Carwow quotes the UK RRP for an Atto 3 as £37,695 - £39,695 with a discount so you can get one for £35,476.

In China, the Seagull is 73,800 to 89,800 yuan. If the prices scale the same, the UK prices would be £17700 to £21558

 

[Chuffing Heck]

Indeed.

Until we as a country embrace the inevitable (that in 5-10 years people will be buying EVs whether the Government chooses to allow ICE cars to continue to be sold or not), we'll just fall further behind.

China has a clear lead, but it isn't the only country with the necessary materials to produce batteries - it has just invested heavily while others sat on their backsides. Even the US is probably ahead of us, thanks to Elon (and I don't find myself thanking that narcissistic idiot very often).

It's somewhat ironic because in the tech world, China often had no choice but to copy the west to produce cheaper clones. This time it is out in front and we're the ones having to find ways to compete.

Perhaps the west will impose tariffs and duty on Chinese imports to level the playing field, but then the only losers are the people who will pay more - so I doubt that will be popular.

I do hope so but with main ice manufacturers looking to have their electric vehicles built in china and then just sticking their badges on them the future doesn’t look very bright.

 

[trebor79]

Manufacturers aren't going to go in too cheap, so assuming they can make it cheaper than Citroën, a good target might be £18-19k.

I honestly can't see anyone going too cheap, given ICE cars are expensive these days too.

China can buy market share through low prices, but there's no need to go crazy. If others come in and trigger a price war, there needs to be some margin to play with.

I think they will note that the Ora Cat has had very low sales indeed. Touted at 250 mile range for around £25k, when it finally launched it was a small battery variant at £35k, firmly into "premium" territory and at a price point where there are many much more capable cars.
I can't quite work out what they thought was going to happen with it priced so high, but everyone who was looking forward to the launch (me included) lost interest once the actual price and spec was revealed.

 

[jon0844]

I think they will note that the Ora Cat has had very low sales indeed. Touted at 250 mile range for around £25k, when it finally launched it was a small battery variant at £35k, firmly into "premium" territory and at a price point where there are many much more capable cars.
I can't quite work out what they thought was going to happen with it priced so high, but everyone who was looking forward to the launch (me included) lost interest once the actual price and spec was revealed.

You can lease one for as little as £180/m and with just around £1500 deposit - so I think the industry has found a more appropriate value.

I have no idea what Ora was smoking when it announced pricing given all the reviews from elsewhere talked of the value.

 

[trebor79]

You can lease one for as little as £180/m and with just around £1500 deposit - so I think the industry has found a more appropriate value.

I have no idea what Ora was smoking when it announced pricing given all the reviews from elsewhere talked of the value.

Indeed.
I guess someone has taken a haircut and flogged a lot of the first shipload to the lease cos for a "discount". It's a shame really as it had potential to do really well, but they were almost a year late launching it and then stunned everyone with a much smaller battery and much higher price than they had touted.
I saw one parked at Addenbrookes last week and had a gawp through the windows, looks nice inside and out. Perfectly decent.

 

[jon0844]

I think at £180/m it's a bargain. Only £30 more than I'm paying now.

The MG4 also has good leasing options so I hope the e-C3 will too. Probably not as low as £180 though.

(all the above prices are for 5000 miles per annum, but that's fine for most people - hence why many people want more small cars because they're not doing 12000+ miles per year).

 

[Speed43125]

A brand new Tesla 3 is now £40k for delivery in January/February 2024

https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/model3/design

I still would argue you want one from around 2021 before they deleted loads of stuff. The new 'Highland' model 3 doesn't even have indicator stalks....

 

[jon0844]

Progress in so many industries these days does seem to mean cheaper materials and reduced features.

I guess inflation does that when wanting to keep similar prices, but buying 'last year's model' can be quite sensible.

 

[StKeverne1497]

(all the above prices are for 5000 miles per annum, but that's fine for most people - hence why many people want more small cars because they're not doing 12000+ miles per year).

I do 20,000+, mainly on a commute and have always driven a smallish car for this purpose - albeit a Diesel with a fairly long 5th gear. I'd be happy to go to electric now that they are finally beginning to have enough range for my use* but leasing or PCP options at 24,000 miles (to be on the safe side) are very thin on the ground or outlandishly expensive. Normal HP might work for me, but one of the things still holding me back is all the unnecessary technology. I want a car I can step into, start up and drive, with a radio to listen to, a heater and air conditioning. Little more than that. I really don't want a "connected" car which wants me to install an app on my phone, or one with a massive LCD display which blinds me at night**, removes functions which should, by rights, be on dashboard switches to a menu system three levels deep. I'd even be happy with a totally unnecessary manual gearbox connected to the electric motor***. Of course, many non-electric cars are also going down this route, but it seems as if all electric cars are built that way.

There are companies which will convert any old car to electric, and I am sorely tempted, but the conversion cost is almost as much as buying a new car, and performance (particularly battery capacity) might be a compromise.

*It's a difficult one. My commute is 100 miles a day (though I don't work every day) with no opportunity to charge while at work. If I had a car with a headline 300 mile range but an advisory that for best battery life you should only charge between 20% and 80% (I realise some battery chemistries aren't that restricted) and use high-speed chargers sparingly, instantly the safely usable range is 60% of 300 = 180 miles. Stick that in the manufacturer's range estimator for a winter commute with lights and heating on and at mostly motorway speeds and 180 miles reduces to perhaps 120 miles. Add a 20% contingency to my commute distance for the times where I have to go home via a different route (which is slightly longer and a great deal more hilly and twisty) and my commute becomes 120 miles. And that ignores battery degradation over time. Things are getting there, but I'd feel safer with a headline 350 mile range and/or a 10%/90% recommendation, and those sorts of cars are out of my league at the moment. Hopefully by the time my current car dies, electric will be a viable option.

**Even the smallish displays in our current cars are a problem on this front, though the one in the Sandero - which is low down on the console and when switched to "dark" does not light up again every time you change volume on the radio or select reverse gear - is far better in this respect than the one in the Berlingo which does both of those things

***I can't say I have vast experience of electric cars, but some of them seem to make quite horrid whiny noises at slow speed, and horrid whirry noises at high speed. Couple a gearbox in line and you could run the motor in the middle of its RPM range and reduce both effects.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Whiny noise at low speed:
probably the required virtual engine noise thing that is supposed to alert eg pedestrians. Cuts out at ~15mph because by then, tyre noise works instead; EVs once up to that sort of speed make no less noise than a petrol engined car on low load (excepting huge v8s and things with amplified exhausts and so on).
Battery life:
(a) in many EVs 100% is not 100%. The battery management system treats a % in the 90s as 100 for two reasons - to prolong its life and to allow for some degradation before is usable capacity is reduced.
(b) There is enough suggestion (esp. from Tesla) that a battery used fully, repeatedly, and frequently rapid charged still remains at a health state well into the 90% range after something like 100k miles.

So - if you need to - then use it 10-100% all the time and don't be concerned.
"Bells and whistles" (like electronic controls and screens and so on): As you say - those are artefacts of a modern car equally applicable to classic fuels. In this respect an EV is liklely to be equivalent to a modern automatic. As to why you'd like a totally unnecessary gearbox - each to their own. They are essential in piston engines solely because their torque curve is very limited. They are unnecessary in an EV because an electric motor's torque curve is huge and wide.

My car: WLTP quoted range 193. Actual (100 to 10%) summer 200; winter 170 - from personal experience. At which point I could still carefully go another 15 miles or so.

Most nay-sayers are people who have never actually done it; people who "fear" the unknowns of what is absolutely a change in what they are accustomed to. I have been exclusively EV for 6 years now. Whilst admittedly I don't have a mandatory 200 mile commute, neither is my car one that is claimed to cover that distance. Put simply - it has never, ever, been a problem. Most experienced EV users would not ever choose to revert to using liquid fuel.

 

[jon0844]

I do 20,000+, mainly on a commute and have always driven a smallish car for this purpose - albeit a Diesel with a fairly long 5th gear. I'd be happy to go to electric now that they are finally beginning to have enough range for my use* but leasing or PCP options at 24,000 miles (to be on the safe side) are very thin on the ground or outlandishly expensive. Normal HP might work for me, but one of the things still holding me back is all the unnecessary technology. I want a car I can step into, start up and drive, with a radio to listen to, a heater and air conditioning. Little more than that. I really don't want a "connected" car which wants me to install an app on my phone, or one with a massive LCD display which blinds me at night**, removes functions which should, by rights, be on dashboard switches to a menu system three levels deep. I'd even be happy with a totally unnecessary manual gearbox connected to the electric motor***. Of course, many non-electric cars are also going down this route, but it seems as if all electric cars are built that way.

There are companies which will convert any old car to electric, and I am sorely tempted, but the conversion cost is almost as much as buying a new car, and performance (particularly battery capacity) might be a compromise.

*It's a difficult one. My commute is 100 miles a day (though I don't work every day) with no opportunity to charge while at work. If I had a car with a headline 300 mile range but an advisory that for best battery life you should only charge between 20% and 80% (I realise some battery chemistries aren't that restricted) and use high-speed chargers sparingly, instantly the safely usable range is 60% of 300 = 180 miles. Stick that in the manufacturer's range estimator for a winter commute with lights and heating on and at mostly motorway speeds and 180 miles reduces to perhaps 120 miles. Add a 20% contingency to my commute distance for the times where I have to go home via a different route (which is slightly longer and a great deal more hilly and twisty) and my commute becomes 120 miles. And that ignores battery degradation over time. Things are getting there, but I'd feel safer with a headline 350 mile range and/or a 10%/90% recommendation, and those sorts of cars are out of my league at the moment. Hopefully by the time my current car dies, electric will be a viable option.

**Even the smallish displays in our current cars are a problem on this front, though the one in the Sandero - which is low down on the console and when switched to "dark" does not light up again every time you change volume on the radio or select reverse gear - is far better in this respect than the one in the Berlingo which does both of those things

***I can't say I have vast experience of electric cars, but some of them seem to make quite horrid whiny noises at slow speed, and horrid whirry noises at high speed. Couple a gearbox in line and you could run the motor in the middle of its RPM range and reduce both effects.

A car like the MG4 Extended Range has a lot of toys but not at a massive premium and boasts well over 300 miles (and if you want, just connect your Android or iPhone to get that on the main display instead - all your toys are now available and always updated, not what the car maker wants you to use and probably charges annual fees to use or update). Even in the worst winter weather, I can't see any chance of it not managing 100 miles per day, or even many more due to a diversion etc. TBH, even the long range would probably be fine.

I wonder what lease deals are offered on cars that are built for high mileages? Otherwise, why not buy the car outright? A second hand one will probably be a good few grand cheaper.

Clearly for such mileages, and assuming you'll get to charge at home every day, it would seem that you'd stand to make considerable savings over a diesel car (a service for the MG4, or at least the first service, costs around £80-90). It's the low mileage users who are still not quite at the point where an EV makes sense, at least until these new small cars come out.

 

[trebor79]

I do 20,000+, mainly on a commute and have always driven a smallish car for this purpose - albeit a Diesel with a fairly long 5th gear. I'd be happy to go to electric now that they are finally beginning to have enough range for my use* but leasing or PCP options at 24,000 miles (to be on the safe side) are very thin on the ground or outlandishly expensive. Normal HP might work for me, but one of the things still holding me back is all the unnecessary technology. I want a car I can step into, start up and drive, with a radio to listen to, a heater and air conditioning. Little more than that. I really don't want a "connected" car which wants me to install an app on my phone, or one with a massive LCD display which blinds me at night**, removes functions which should, by rights, be on dashboard switches to a menu system three levels deep. I'd even be happy with a totally unnecessary manual gearbox connected to the electric motor***. Of course, many non-electric cars are also going down this route, but it seems as if all electric cars are built that way.

There are companies which will convert any old car to electric, and I am sorely tempted, but the conversion cost is almost as much as buying a new car, and performance (particularly battery capacity) might be a compromise.

*It's a difficult one. My commute is 100 miles a day (though I don't work every day) with no opportunity to charge while at work. If I had a car with a headline 300 mile range but an advisory that for best battery life you should only charge between 20% and 80% (I realise some battery chemistries aren't that restricted) and use high-speed chargers sparingly, instantly the safely usable range is 60% of 300 = 180 miles. Stick that in the manufacturer's range estimator for a winter commute with lights and heating on and at mostly motorway speeds and 180 miles reduces to perhaps 120 miles. Add a 20% contingency to my commute distance for the times where I have to go home via a different route (which is slightly longer and a great deal more hilly and twisty) and my commute becomes 120 miles. And that ignores battery degradation over time. Things are getting there, but I'd feel safer with a headline 350 mile range and/or a 10%/90% recommendation, and those sorts of cars are out of my league at the moment. Hopefully by the time my current car dies, electric will be a viable option.

**Even the smallish displays in our current cars are a problem on this front, though the one in the Sandero - which is low down on the console and when switched to "dark" does not light up again every time you change volume on the radio or select reverse gear - is far better in this respect than the one in the Berlingo which does both of those things

***I can't say I have vast experience of electric cars, but some of them seem to make quite horrid whiny noises at slow speed, and horrid whirry noises at high speed. Couple a gearbox in line and you could run the motor in the middle of its RPM range and reduce both effects.

I think the new Citroen eC3 at £21,000 is the car for you it has a 198 mile WLTP range, in real life (ie motorway) that's going to be about 150 in summer and maybe 120-130 in winter. It has a LiFePO battery which you can charge to 100% every da, which degrades much more slowly than other chemistries and will rapid charge at a max 100kW on the odd ocassion you go further. You commute will cost approximately 2p per mile for electricity if charged at home, vs probably 15p per mile in diesel costs at present.
It's very conventional inside, manual air conditioning.

A very few EVs (Porsche Taycan being one) have multi-speed gearboxes. but they really aren't necessary for normal cars because the torque characteritics of the motor are controlled electronically. I actually quite like the "winding up" noise you get under hard acceleration and it goes away when you stop accelerating and becomes inaudible anyway due to wind and road noise above about 40mph. It's certainly quieter than any ICE vehicle. And you really won't miss the clutch pedal or gearstick. Put your foot down and BANG, you're gone.

 

[Bald Rick]

It's a difficult one. My commute is 100 miles a day (though I don't work every day) with no opportunity to charge while at work.

A good friend of mine has a 120 mile / day commute, plus regular trips up to 200 miles one way. Cant charge at work. He has a leased Skoda Enyiaq that is now almost 2 years old and reckons its the best thing he‘s ever done (car wise).

 

[StKeverne1497]

Thanks for all the suggestions - I quite deliberately made some daft comments (I know no right-minded manufacturer would consider a manual gearbox in an electric car) so well done everyone for not chewing my head off. I do still have some "range anxiety", I wouldn't touch a Tesla with a well-insulated bargepole, second-hand cars have last season's batteries so are likely less capable than a new car, I have looked at the MG range (but, China...), but I've not seen the Citroen eC3 yet (and presumably there are Peugeot and Vauxhall-badged equivalents?). £21,000 does seem good for a BEV, but our 19-plate Berlingo was £21,000 in 2019 and the most expensive car we've ever bought. My near-top-of-the-range Sandero was around £7½k at two years old and I believe was only about £15k new.

Regarding fuel costs, I'm currently around 12p/mile in the Sandero. While 2p/mile sounds plausible, it's also quite difficult in practice I think. Mind you, I agree it's not going to get anywhere near 12p/mile; Octopus's current offering is 7½p/kWh for six hours so firstly you are assuming 3½ miles per kWh (seems above average, but only a little) but secondly for a typical 7kW home charger, that's a maximum of 42kWh at that rate (which, to be fair, should be more than enough to replenish the car following my own commute). The rest of the day unit rate is about 11% higher than the normal tariff rate, so everything we do during the day (and we're a busy family) will be more expensive. Then again, it's swings and roundabouts. We average (let's say) three washing loads a day. If we can be disciplined and do one of those overnight it's still a saving, swapping 3x approx 27½p = 82½p for 1x 7½p plus 2x 30½p = 68½p (times whatever the actual kWh usage is per wash).

At the other end of the scale, my "IT cupboard" is a constant approx 100W load which currently costs 27½p x 24 x 0.1kW = 66p per day, and under the Octopus tariff, (30½p x 18 + 7½ x 6) x 0.1 = 59½p

Talking of range anxiety, why does the new electric Berlingo only come with a smallish battery? Nissan were the same with the (no longer available I believe) eNV200.

 

[Bald Rick]

Givenn my experience on the other thread about newly registered EVs, I have a hunch that in my part of Hertfordshire there is a much higher than the 2.5%-3% average proportion of battery EVs than shown in the national statistics.

So today I have unleashed my inner geek and done a vehicle count on a main road into St Albans to see what propotion are EVs. I only counted cars or car derived vans, no other types of vehicle, and included only those that were being driven, ie not those parked.

Of the 500 cars I saw, 39 were Battery EVs (7.8%).


Usual rules about statistics and sampling apply!

 

[trebor79]

I do still have some "range anxiety", I wouldn't touch a Tesla with a well-insulated bargepole, second-hand cars have last season's batteries so are likely less capable than a new car, I have looked at the MG range (but, China...), but I've not seen the Citroen eC3 yet (and presumably there are Peugeot and Vauxhall-badged equivalents?). £21,000 does seem good for a BEV, but our 19-plate Berlingo was £21,000 in 2019 and the most expensive car we've ever bought. My near-top-of-the-range Sandero was around £7½k at two years old and I believe was only about £15k new.

Regarding fuel costs, I'm currently around 12p/mile in the Sandero. While 2p/mile sounds plausible, it's also quite difficult in practice I think. Mind you, I agree it's not going to get anywhere near 12p/mile; Octopus's current offering is 7½p/kWh for six hours so firstly you are assuming 3½ miles per kWh (seems above average, but only a little) but secondly for a typical 7kW home charger, that's a maximum of 42kWh at that rate (which, to be fair, should be more than enough to replenish the car following my own commute).

With Intelligent Octopu you get extra cheap slots if required to reach the desired charge level, so you get the 6 hours guaranteed every night at the cheap rate, plus other slots as required.
My Tesla costs me £3.20 in electricity to do a 186 mile round trip commute, so a bit under 2p a mile. It's a bit meh as a car but has decent range, is efficient and charges quickly at relatively cheap superchargers when I do need to charge away from home.

The eC3 isn't out yet, but coming soon.

You could get a secondhand Niro or Kona. The Korean cars don't seem to suffer much if at all from battery degradation.

I wouldn't worry about buying second hand particularly. Test drive it and note consumption figures to work out the useable capacity and hence degradation. I bought the Niro new and the Tesla used.

 

[Harpers Tate]

(but, China...)

Just a quick reminder: If you are like ~50% of people and use an Apple device, check where it was made. If you are like the other ~50% then, check where it was made! Tesla car (yes, I know you discounted that) - check where it was made. Point is - there is a very high probability that you are already awash with Chinese goods. MGs (and a few others) are just not hiding their origin. And for all the reviews I've recently looked at, the MG4 comes out very very well on the whole; well made, good driving etc.

And yes - you are right on the nail with thinking of scheduling things like washing, dishwasher etc., to happen in your cheap overnight window. For a not insignificant upfront cost you could go further and equip your home with a battery system that recharges overnight and discharges in the daytime. Added bonus of being protected from power outages.

 

[DustyBin]

Just a quick reminder: If you are like ~50% of people and use an Apple device, check where it was made. If you are like the other ~50% then, check where it was made! Tesla car (yes, I know you discounted that) - check where it was made. Point is - there is a very high probability that you are already awash with Chinese goods. MGs (and a few others) are just not hiding their origin. And for all the reviews I've recently looked at, the MG4 comes out very very well on the whole; well made, good driving etc.

You’re right, it’s practically impossible to avoid Chinese goods and/or components. I go out of my way to do so (and I’m willing to put my money where my mouth is in this regard), however the iPhone I’m typing on right now for example fails the test, unfortunately.

I do find it incredible however that so many people are willing to buy a Chinese car. For the overwhelming majority, a new car is the second largest (or in some cases the largest) investment they’ll make, and to invest that money into a hostile country really wouldn’t sit right with me, whatsoever.

I know some people will claim that geopolitics isn’t their problem, but it is. We (in the West) live (largely) comfortable existences, but we’re not as insulated from world events as some seem to think…

 

[Bletchleyite]

And yes - you are right on the nail with thinking of scheduling things like washing, dishwasher etc., to happen in your cheap overnight window. For a not insignificant upfront cost you could go further and equip your home with a battery system that recharges overnight and discharges in the daytime. Added bonus of being protected from power outages.

Not sure I would waste my money, as once EVs become the norm overnight demand will be similar to daytime (due to all the cars on charge) and so we are more likely to see the price being the same or similar all day.

 

[stj]

Once revenue needs to be collected I expect you wont be able to charge at home and will need to use an authorised charging station like we use petrol stations now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Once revenue needs to be collected I expect you wont be able to charge at home and will need to use an authorised charging station like we use petrol stations now.

Revenue will be by way of road pricing or something similar, even if it's as simple as a tax based on the odometer reading at MoT time coupled with more secure odometers. That is basically certain.

Most likely to encourage adoption ICE drivers will have to pay both road pricing AND fuel tax.

 

[jon0844]

Putting measuring equipment in every car or checking at a service or MOT seems far too open to fraud, so I think the best and most likely way for a Government to make more money from motorists would be congestion charges (not emissions, obviously).

Plus I think that while EVs may not pollute locally, there could be a tax on his efficient it is - based on miles per KWh.

Clean cars still add to congestion and giant, heavy, cars are using more power - green or not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Putting measuring equipment in every car or checking at a service or MOT seems far too open to fraud, so I think the best and most likely way for a Government to make more money from motorists would be congestion charges (not emissions, obviously).

That's quite a good way of doing it, as cars cause most harm in urban areas so concentrating the taxation on that usage does make sense. There is little reason to restrict driving in very rural areas, and plenty of reason to encourage people to park and ride into cities if coming from the countryside.

I'd expect motorway tolls too, to encourage switching to rail for long distance. Could be avoided by driving on A roads instead, but most people don't have the patience and barring a few holidaymakers it's not a common thing to do in France where motorways have always been tolled.

 

[Bald Rick]

Once revenue needs to be collected I expect you wont be able to charge at home and will need to use an authorised charging station like we use petrol stations now.

Absolutely no chance, its unenforceable.