Heathrow and BA a disgrace to the country

[306024]

Virgin Atlantic don't operate internal flights across America?

Virgin Atlantic no, it was Virgin America who merged with Alaska Airlines in 2018.

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I went Finnair Manchester-Helsinki-Hong Kong in June, business class, row 1 on the long flight, it was the best flight of my round-the-world holiday. JAL Tokyo-Los Angeles was second best. The Manchester-Helsinki leg was fine also.
I plan on using Finnair again, it avoids having to go via London from Manchester and it's better than BA by miles anyway. They appear to fly Helsinki-Osaka which will probably be my next target.

I’d do similar in your shoes. Heathrow is just too big with a chance of having to use the terminal 5 transfer shuttle between A, B and C gates, or worse the train to T2, T3 or T4, to make your connection. It all adds time.

 

[jon81uk]

Virgin Atlantic no, it was Virgin America who merged with Alaska Airlines in 2018.

They were always two seperate companies though, but the way you wrote about three strikes I had assumed you'd had bad experiences all with the same company.

 

[306024]

They were always two seperate companies though, but the way you wrote about three strikes I had assumed you'd had bad experiences all with the same company.

Legally, but I did just say Virgin. Virgin Group was its parent company for most of that time. It was all the same Virgin brand, with the same founder.

 

[jon81uk]

Legally, but I did just say Virgin. Virgin Group was its parent company for most of that time. It was all the same Virgin brand, with the same founder.

Having the same parent company doesn't reflect on what service you'll get from a company, they had their own CEO and operated separately. Kingsmill bread and Primark clothing have the same parent company but my experience with one of those brands doesn't influence my experience with the other one.

 

[306024]

Having the same parent company doesn't reflect on what service you'll get from a company, they had their own CEO and operated separately. Kingsmill bread and Primark clothing have the same parent company but my experience with one of those brands doesn't influence my experience with the other one.

Quite true, but I’m not aware of Kingsmill clothing, or Primark bread. Virgin America and Atlantic were / are both airlines, had the same logo on the tail of the plane, so clearly had some association. You have to wonder why Virgin America no longer exist, perhaps the low cost ethos was detracting from the Virgin Atlantic brand.

 

[RailWonderer]

Finnair to Helsinki on a newish A350 wins the award for the best flight this year, as you get to use the Cathay Pacific lounge at Heathrow too if you’re posh enough

I never understood why Finnair use long haul aircraft 4 times per day from London to Helsinki unless there are a lot of Finns needing connecting flights via the UK. Least to say I'll be trying one hopefully next year. I imagine you get in flight entertainment but no meal (given the flight time of 2h 40)?

 

[DanNCL]

BA have 8 A321 neos on order, 11 A320neos, 2 more A350s as well as 777-9s and 787-10s for long haul.

The 777-9s are to replace the capacity lost by removing the 747s so won’t replace anything in the current fleet.
The A320 and A321 NEOs are to facilitate the transfer of the remaining A321 CEOs to Euroflyer and to replace the remaining G-EUOx and G-EUPx A319s. The G-DBCx A319s, despite their inability to handle containerised baggage, aren’t currently planned for replacement.

People in UK rarely connect for short haul journeys because the stopover time makes it too time consuming. Those that do live a long way from an airport of any significance. Very few residents of places within a couple of hours ground transport of an airport with half decent destinations will unless the price difference is massive. Id be interested to know if any members living in North West England do that frequently. Its different for you on the Isle of Man or say someone who lives near Humberside or Teeside Airport.

Plenty fly BA from Newcastle and connect onto short haul flights at Heathrow.

I never understood why Finnair use long haul aircraft 4 times per day from London to Helsinki unless there are a lot of Finns needing connecting flights via the UK. Least to say I'll be trying one hopefully next year. I imagine you get in flight entertainment but no meal (given the flight time of 2h 40)?

Finnair is one of a few airlines to do this, Turkish and Iberia also fly long haul aircraft to Heathrow daily.
It’s often down to how slot constrained Heathrow is, which can force airlines to fly less frequently with larger aircraft.
The other common reason is cargo capacity, the isn’t necessarily the passenger demand to fill a widebody but it can still be the most profitable option if there’s enough cargo for that flight to fill the hold of a widebody.
Even for BA it isn’t unheard of for long haul aircraft to do short haul flights for the cargo capacity although that isn’t a daily occurrence it happens on an as and when required basis, but still known about a few months in advance usually.

 

[Mojo]

Having the same parent company doesn't reflect on what service you'll get from a company, they had their own CEO and operated separately.

lf it did, we wouldn’t be having this conversation anyway, as the parent company of British Airways does offer int’l flights from Manchester, to Dublin, Orlando, New York and Barbados, operated by Aer Lingus.

 

[306024]

I never understood why Finnair use long haul aircraft 4 times per day from London to Helsinki unless there are a lot of Finns needing connecting flights via the UK. Least to say I'll be trying one hopefully next year. I imagine you get in flight entertainment but no meal (given the flight time of 2h 40)?

That‘s correct. I had a glass of their signature blueberry juice, which was something different.

 

[Chester1]

lf it did, we wouldn’t be having this conversation anyway, as the parent company of British Airways does offer int’l flights from Manchester, to Dublin, Orlando, New York and Barbados, operated by Aer Lingus.

If Aer Lingus start offering flights from Manchester to mainland Europe, Asia or Africa then IAG might be providing a meaningful service outside of London.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Manchester's long haul connections are much more than a couple of Virgin and Aer Lingus flights

I said point to point long haul flights.

Singapore and the ME3 fly on a hub-and-spoke the same as BA, it’s just that their spoke is from the Middle East not Heathrow.

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I never understood why Finnair use long haul aircraft 4 times per day from London to Helsinki

If I were to guess, I’d say Finnair were using it for the cargo capacity.

 

[Chester1]

I said point to point long haul flights.

Singapore and the ME3 fly on a hub-and-spoke the same as BA, it’s just that their spoke is from the Middle East not Heathrow.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2023 ==


If I were to guess, I’d say Finnair were using it for the cargo capacity.

I am not sure how Manchester direct to Singapore, Beijing, Hong Kong, Sylhet and Addis Ababa doesn’t count because Manchester isn’t the hub airport. If your going to Beijing then it being the hub is a rather big improvement on Heathrow. IAG could have a base in at least one of Manchester, Birmingham or Edinburgh. It chooses a business model that revolves around its Heathrow landing slots. Its much less of a national issue though now Heathrow's third runway is unlikely. Eventually that would have sucked in British taxpayers money, one way or another and made the UK even more London centric.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I am not sure how Manchester direct to Singapore, Beijing, Hong Kong, Sylhet and Addis Ababa doesn’t count because Manchester isn’t the hub airport.

The economics of hub-and-spoke are different, and easier, than point-to-point. Qatar (BA’s sister company), Etihad, and Emirates make their Manchester long-haul flights work as a spoke into their global network at their hubs. Singapore Airlines make it work as a stopover on their Houston-Singapore flight.

If BA also flew, say, Manchester-Dubai, they wouldn’t get the same custom. So they don’t fly those routes from Manchester. It doesn’t make them “London Airways”.
There aren’t many routes from Manchester that exist as standalone routes: Virgin and Aer Lingus to JFK is about it, with Virgin’s flights to the Caribbean and to Florida more being tied in with holiday traffic.

 

[edwin_m]

The economics of hub-and-spoke are different, and easier, than point-to-point. Qatar (BA’s sister company), Etihad, and Emirates make their Manchester long-haul flights work as a spoke into their global network at their hubs.

As do others, such as KLM's connecting flights from Schiphol to non-London airports, and Aer Lingus from Dublin. BA are doing just the same, but their hub is Heathrow.

 

[Chester1]

The economics of hub-and-spoke are different, and easier, than point-to-point. Qatar (BA’s sister company), Etihad, and Emirates make their Manchester long-haul flights work as a spoke into their global network at their hubs. Singapore Airlines make it work as a stopover on their Houston-Singapore flight.

If BA also flew, say, Manchester-Dubai, they wouldn’t get the same custom. So they don’t fly those routes from Manchester. It doesn’t make them “London Airways”.
There aren’t many routes from Manchester that exist as standalone routes: Virgin and Aer Lingus to JFK is about it, with Virgin’s flights to the Caribbean and to Florida more being tied in with holiday traffic.

You could use the same logic to say Emirates isn't Dubai Airlines and Etihad isn’t Abu Dhabi Airlines because you can connect from other cities in UAE. That is precisely what they are. Its a good businees model, but neither claim to be UAE national carrier.

As do others, such as KLM's connecting flights from Schiphol to non-London airports, and Aer Lingus from Dublin. BA are doing just the same, but their hub is Heathrow.

For a resident of Manchester, particularly one with links to Asia and North America it amounts to the same thing, that I need to change and changing outside of the UK gives many more options.

I find it hard to believe that the difference between Dublin being viable as an Aer Lingus hub and Manchester, Edinburgh and Birmingham not being viable for any meaningful long haul service is purely the history of interchanging there and the tech companies based there to avoid tax. The catchment area for Birmingham and Manchester airports are substantially bigger than the whole population of the island of Ireland and Scotland's is similar. Its a valid commercial choice to not take risks and milk Heathrow slots, my objection is the name, branding and phrase national carrier. I am very glad the third runway isn’t likely, so airlines have a choice between airports other than Heathrow or no additional UK services.

 

[Cowley]

Can we have this debate without resorting to insults about where someone comes from please.

It’s been an interesting thread, but it starts to become a little boring when it turns into personal attacks…

 

[Wolfie]

Can we have this debate without resorting to insults about where someone comes from please.

It’s been an interesting thread, but it starts to become a little boring when it turns into personal attacks…

My apologies for my part in that to both you and @Chester1.

My intent was to point out that decisions were taken for sound economic reasons which are unlikely to have changed.

 

[Bald Rick]

back on topic, having just seen an advert on telly for VS (which is also shown just before the pre flight safety brief on board) … I realised that it‘s been a long time since I saw a BA advert on telly. Do they not bother or am I not watching enough telly?

 

[306024]

No can’t recall a recent BA advert, but I don’t watch too much telly either. As they’ve just introduced a new crew uniform perhaps they could have given themselves a bit of promotion.

But, as happens with any staff uniform, the new BA one appears to have had mixed reaction from those who have to wear it. Can’t say it looks better than the old one. In fact some of the crew on my flight last week seemed to struggle with the collars, which Harry Hill would be proud to wear.

 

[Bald Rick]

In fact some of the crew on my flight last week seemed to struggle with the collars, which Harry Hill would be proud to wear.

Well, theres only one way to solve that…. FIIIGGGHHHHT!

 

[Wolfie]

No can’t recall a recent BA advert, but I don’t watch too much telly either. As they’ve just introduced a new crew uniform perhaps they could have given themselves a bit of promotion.

But, as happens with any staff uniform, the new BA one appears to have had mixed reaction from those who have to wear it. Can’t say it looks better than the old one. In fact some of the crew on my flight last week seemed to struggle with the collars, which Harry Hill would be proud to wear.

Supposedly they are now into "multi-channel media" which likely means more online and less conventional advertising.

 

[Bald Rick]

Supposedly they are now into "multi-channel media" which likely means more online and less conventional advertising.

To be fair, i watch relatively little tv, but quite a lot online, and still have never seen a BA advert recently.

Perhaps they have seen my posts on here and know I’m a lost cause.

 

[Wolfie]

To be fair, i watch relatively little tv, but quite a lot online, and still have never seen a BA advert recently.

Perhaps they have seen my posts on here and know I’m a lost cause.

'A British Original' Returns in British Airways Summer Inspired Campaign — LBB

The new executions follow the original campaign created by Uncommon for British Airways, which won a Grand Prix in Outdoor at this year’s show

www.lbbonline.com

The link explains the supposed artistic ethos behind a prize winnibg media campaign for BA from "Uncommon" who l assume are an advertising agency.

 

[306024]

The link explains the supposed artistic ethos behind a prize winnibg media campaign for BA from "Uncommon" who l assume are an advertising agency.

Interesting! To quote from that link:

The new executions include a more contextual approach - using visual cues from objects to reflect the sentiment in the copy

So that’s clear then Who writes this tosh!

 

[Wolfie]

Interesting! To quote from that link:


So that’s clear then Who writes this tosh!

We are in violent agreement hence my "supposed artistic ethos" comment.... Pretentious twaddle!

 

[Jimini]

Well, theres only one way to solve that…. FIIIGGGHHHHT!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

If you read what I said I compared the carriers that I have flown transatlantic with as that’s my main BA experience. All of them beat BA for me on the overall experience.

That just shows how random and differing individuals' experiences can be then, because compared to my recent BA flights to/from Los Angeles and Dallas-Fort Worth, which were very pleasant indeed (and I think their A380 World Traveller on top deck must be one of the best economy environments I've experienced), my most recent American Airlines flights to/from Miami and Dallas-Fort Worth were shockingly poor. I'd opt for BA over them any day. I'm a fan of Virgin Atlantic, having flown with them on four occasions to the Caribbean, but comfort and customer service have always been better still on BA for me. I'd also pick BA over Qantas too. The 14 hours I did in a QF A380 were hellish, and although the QF 787 was more spacious (surprisingly), customer service compared to BA is informal (not as bad as AA mind) and lacking.

As far as short haul goes, I'll admit that Ryanair is usually my airline of choice primarily due to its ridiculously low fares. For short haul, I do not care about the aircraft type, interior, service, baggage allowances (I travel very light), etc. and as I go to uni in Cardiff, Bristol is a more attractive option than BA from Heathrow anyway. I like Ryanair very much and find them good value for money - you get what you pay for. But I have always had a good experience on BA Short Haul too - now BA Short Haul I've only used sixteen times in my life, so hardly at all compared to many of yous, but have always enjoyed the customer service and ambiance as a bit of a treat compared to my countless flights with Ryanair. Club Europe using the same seats as Euro Traveller is cheeky but I've enjoyed that service too.

It's easyJet I'm not keen on. They tend to charge more expensive fares than Ryanair that aren't really often THAT much cheaper than BA, but for a far more Ryanair-esque service than BA. They don't have BA's standard of service, nor do they have Ryanair's dirt cheap fares. It's somewhere in the middle, and that doesn't particularly attract me.

Wizz I can't stand.

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Its irritating that a majority foreign owned airline that only really serves London is referred to as the national carrier by the media, because they are overwhelmingly based in London too. BA is a division of IAG and its business model is to milk its Heathrow and Gatwick landing slots and not take any risks to expand into the rest of the country.

What else would you have as the national carrier?? easyJet is the only other large airline, and if you can look past the embarrassment of our flag carrier offering economy-only service, charges for everything including bags in the overheads, etc. , there’s primarily the issue that our flag carrier wouldn’t serve anywhere outside of Europe and Morocco…

 

[AlastairFraser]

It's easyJet I'm not keen on. They tend to charge more expensive fares than Ryanair that aren't really often THAT much cheaper than BA, but for a far more Ryanair-esque service than BA. They don't have BA's standard of service, nor do they have Ryanair's dirt cheap fares. It's somewhere in the middle, and that doesn't particularly attract me.

I think it depends if you can travel light at all. I'm personally atrocious at packing for carry-on, especially after a visit to a gift shop
But if you want decent bags, EasyJet don't cost as much as Ryanair for a decent sized checked bag.
Their seats are also miles better than Ryanair.
Ryanair's are OK for 1 hour hops, but most other airlines will beat them for further.

 

[eoff]

Lots to digest here.

T5 transfers are fine for me, and having to go through security is no different from an EU to non-EU transfer at airports in Europe. I would rather have T5 than have to take an unexpected 45 minutes to go from similarly numbered gates at Frankfurt with windy corridors, passport control and security lines.

There is night and day when things go wrong, I missed a transfer recently and BA rebooked before I landed and put me up at Heathrow. In the past colleagues of mine have had real hassle getting Easyjet to do anything like that to the extent they were left to do all the rebooking and finding hotels themselves to later claim back. Similarly KLM have rebooked me immediately on at least 3 times when flights were delayed (twice for weather).

Comparison with low-cost airlines: I suppose the low cost airlines are effectively what destroyed a lot of what I used to like about BA because BA had to compete (we will also give you no-baggage fares, no food or drink etc.).

Service. This is going to depend a lot on what class you travel and this affects the all-over experience. I just don't like the Belgian Airlines planes BA uses and those have terrible entertainment choices. I see a lot of people just using tablets on planes now.

 

[cactustwirly]

Quite true, but I’m not aware of Kingsmill clothing, or Primark bread. Virgin America and Atlantic were / are both airlines, had the same logo on the tail of the plane, so clearly had some association. You have to wonder why Virgin America no longer exist, perhaps the low cost ethos was detracting from the Virgin Atlantic brand.

They got bought by Alaska who merged it with their existing

That just shows how random and differing individuals' experiences can be then, because compared to my recent BA flights to/from Los Angeles and Dallas-Fort Worth, which were very pleasant indeed (and I think their A380 World Traveller on top deck must be one of the best economy environments I've experienced), my most recent American Airlines flights to/from Miami and Dallas-Fort Worth were shockingly poor. I'd opt for BA over them any day. I'm a fan of Virgin Atlantic, having flown with them on four occasions to the Caribbean, but comfort and customer service have always been better still on BA for me. I'd also pick BA over Qantas too. The 14 hours I did in a QF A380 were hellish, and although the QF 787 was more spacious (surprisingly), customer service compared to BA is informal (not as bad as AA mind) and lacking.

As far as short haul goes, I'll admit that Ryanair is usually my airline of choice primarily due to its ridiculously low fares. For short haul, I do not care about the aircraft type, interior, service, baggage allowances (I travel very light), etc. and as I go to uni in Cardiff, Bristol is a more attractive option than BA from Heathrow anyway. I like Ryanair very much and find them good value for money - you get what you pay for. But I have always had a good experience on BA Short Haul too - now BA Short Haul I've only used sixteen times in my life, so hardly at all compared to many of yous, but have always enjoyed the customer service and ambiance as a bit of a treat compared to my countless flights with Ryanair. Club Europe using the same seats as Euro Traveller is cheeky but I've enjoyed that service too.

It's easyJet I'm not keen on. They tend to charge more expensive fares than Ryanair that aren't really often THAT much cheaper than BA, but for a far more Ryanair-esque service than BA. They don't have BA's standard of service, nor do they have Ryanair's dirt cheap fares. It's somewhere in the middle, and that doesn't particularly attract me.

Wizz I can't stand.

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What else would you have as the national carrier?? easyJet is the only other large airline, and if you can look past the embarrassment of our flag carrier offering economy-only service, charges for everything including bags in the overheads, etc. , there’s primarily the issue that our flag carrier wouldn’t serve anywhere outside of Europe and Morocco…

easyJet are still cheaper than BA, but give a similar experience. They are more likely to serve an airport where you want to go and not a random airport 100 miles away!

I used to really like them, travelled easyJet from Gatwick a few times for £30 each way!
Now they've fiddled with the baggage rules, and charge more than the flight for any decent size baggage I don't fly with them anymore.

Going back 5 or so years, BA would have been significantly more expensive, and easyJet were very good value for money. But now BA have adapted to the market by densifying their aircraft and switching to BoB, they now are a lot more competitive with easyJet.

Where I live is very convenient for Heathrow and to a lesser extent Gatwick. I mostly use BA for my short haul trips. Stansted is far away and I really hate the airport, by the time I have got there and paid extra for baggage BA from Heathrow can be a similar price to Ryanair. BA from Gatwick are also very competitive against easyJet and often cheaper if you include luggage.