Yes, should not forget the possibility of use elsewhere. But I think it highly likely the 68s will be gainfully employed on freight services quite quickly (speculation but to retire 37s etc). So there is another nail in the coffin for Mk5s - no locos !.
Although it is true that another operator of the Mk5s would 100% need the 68s there is a problem because I believe the 68s are more in demand than the Mk5s.
Thank you, yes you are correct about vehicles:
My bold - I had forgotten that !. So Beacon Rail might have influence over the future use of of 68s. Lets just hope they see a guaranteed future use for the Mk5s before someone else asks to use the 68s !.
Makes sense.
No but other operators do use Sulzers. I would not narrow it down to specific engine types anyway but felt the urge to mention some !.
Your right and that is what makes me see the Mk5s as hard to re-use if not used soon. I can see the 68s getting snapped up before there is even hope of the Mk5s finding use.
In 2018 it was 51 * 185's & 10 * 350/4 = 193 in Dec 2023 it's 51 * 185, 12 * 397 & 19 * 802 = 308 vehicles so 59.6% increase as per TPE's statement which relates to the TPE fleet not the North route only. Given the 802's are 25m presumable the seat numbers are more than that.
Not seen TPE quote that all 185's will be doubles, it's not possible and wasn't possible under the original franchise plans when 21 * 185's left TPE. The remaining 30 units could not have covered doubles on all Cleethorpes, Hull and remaining Saltburn services that weren't MkV's.
In 2018 TPE still subleased 185s to Northern for Manchester Airport to Barrow/Windermere services. Northern's 195s, which eventually took over these services, did not start to enter service until 2019.
This reminds me - brings up my feeling that TPE must be trying to replace their new Mk5s with 21 Class 185s that they were going to hand back.
Quite right, TPE have not claimed all doubles, and nor did I claim they had.
Thank you for highlighting that, most appreciated.
With the extension of services to Redcar and then Saltburn, plus the Cleethorpes services running over the CLC to Liverpool were accounted for, the intention was to stand down 15 of the 3-Car Class 185s.
That’s a good point. The Class 185s have been very good units in terms of reliability, but I wonder how units that are now 17 years old and have worked very intensively are going to stand up to even more intensive diagramming.
Indeed even I am left incorrectly expecting there to be more workings of pairs of 185s.
That makes me think - effectively would mean replacing all five car services (Mk5s) with three car (185) services. Certainly makes me think TPE are not hanging on for a recovery (or should it be growth) in passenger numbers.
I suppose TPE must be lagging behind all other operators as regards recovery from Covid due to the awful service.
Not only are the 185s old but they have a door spacing less suited to longer distance services. Although maybe TPE view Redcar, Saltburn and Cleethorpes as deserving of more suburban stock ?. With that in mind I could see more alternative uses for the spare 185s than the TPE Mk5s at other TOCS though both are microfleets. Of course the spare 185s are not microfleets from TPEs point of view !.
That’s certainly a very good way of looking at it.
Undeniably more comfortable
Again, I find myself reminding you that not all tastes are the same. I find the Grammars somewhat thin and flimsy by comparison.
Aye - I also had in my mind the door positions not at coach ends on 185s !. Looking back I mentioned seats but omitted door position (in a cosy vestibule at the coach end on a Mk5). Maybe the autocorrect/keyboard decided Sets meant Seats ?.
The Mk5s were meant to get across the Pennines a lot more iirc ?. I suspect that would have lead to the 185s relegated to the more shuttle like 3-car services at the East end. There are plenty of trained staff for the Mk5s at the York end but a moderate shortage across the Pennines. So the Mk5s have gravitated towards the York/Scarborough shuttles only venturing back to their depot at Longsight every 2-3 days.
Thanks for the update.
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Yes, correct about the original intentions.Aye - I also had in my mind the door positions not at coach ends on 185s !. Looking back I mentioned seats but omitted door position (in a cosy vestibule at the coach end on a Mk5). Maybe the autocorrect/keyboard decided Sets meant Seats ?.
The Mk5s were meant to get across the Pennines a lot more iirc ?. I suspect that would have lead to the 185s relegated to the more shuttle like 3-car services at the East end. There are plenty of trained staff for the Mk5s at the York end but a moderate shortage across the Pennines. So the Mk5s have gravitated towards the York/Scarborough shuttles only venturing back to their depot at Longsight every 2-3 days.
Trained staff is a significant factor because TPE decided that one service across the Pennines would be operated by different staff for different sections. So there is a Crew change at York on through services there and iirc also at Manchester for onwards to Liverpool. I think maybe Leeds is also a crew change point / barrier.
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Thanks for the update.
Nice indication of the 68s that are orf on other duties.
I see 68025 is deemed as still not away from TPE so the optimist in me hopes that it is for exhaust/silencer modifications to make the 68s more acceptable in Scarborough (and Marylebone and anywhere else people did not realise there has always been a railway).
Now I just need fate to dictate that TP07 is needed back in service (back to Longsight) and for the wind to blow the tarpaulin of 12802. That's all
Gosh, comes flooding back - how things have changedYes, correct about the original intentions.
1 set on maintenance
7 sets Liverpool - Scarborough route
5 sets Man Air - Redcar
Supplemented by
2 Class 185 diagrams Man Air - Redcar
I’m not so sure about 68025, though your suggestion would be nice
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Yes, some very good points there about the six-six split and the 2018 timetable.
Could you give us a clue what this article is about. It costs 16 quid to read more than the first 3 lines
That would mainly rely on a solution to the noise levels produced by 68s. Chiltern has to resolve the noise level issue otherwise the 68s are not usable.