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Future of NPR given HS2 issues and cancellation

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Bantamzen

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I don't get why somepeople believe just because another section of a highly controversial high speed line has been canned that the much less controversial upgrades and bits of new line have been canned too ?
Well it could just be me being cynical I'll admit. Or it could be that a well into it's planning, yet highly controversial section of high speed line has been canned. So an as yet unplanned, vague idea of a line that was supposed to supplement its controversial bigger brother, that nobody had the even most basic idea of how it would get from A to B might just be in a teeny tiny bit of trouble... ;)
 
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snowball

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I don't get why somepeople believe just because another section of a highly controversial high speed line has been canned that the much less controversial upgrades and bits of new line have been canned too ?
1) Nobody knows whether they're controversial until there are detailed plans.

2) They're many, many years away from happening, which gives governments plenty of chances to cancel them.

3) If the Liverpool-Manchester route is altered as a result of the promised new look, or if plans for Piccadilly are altered, that will add many more years to the delay, and maybe more fights over underground stations etc.

4) If the government is prepared to drop a project it has been working on for 15 years, and to drop it suddenly without consulting regional mayors, Network Rail or the Infrastructure Commission, why should anyone believe the same won't happen to projects being started now?

5) If the Manchester tunnel proposal is not dropped, how will it possibly survive a business case examination when all the costs, previously to be borne by HS2, are now to be borne by NPR alone?
 

mike57

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4) If the government is prepared to drop a project it has been working on for 15 years, and to drop it suddenly without consulting regional mayors, Network Rail or the Infrastructure Commission, why should anyone believe the same won't happen to projects being started now?
And to look at the politics behind it, I dont believe a change of government at the next election will alter anything. I suspect the opposition are going 'phew, glad we didn't have to take that decision'. Its my belief that any form of major rail investment along the lines of HS2 or NPR will not happen during at least the next political cycle. No government is going to want to commit to any projects until cost controls are improved, HS2 was the big one but Crossrail and GWR electrification also suffered badly. As a politician you are not going to put your head in the noose, much easier to just pay lip service and kick the can down the road.

Hence my original thought of what could be acheived using the current infrastructure with some minor upgrades, which in turn comes back to things like increasing capacity by running the longest possible trains and some targeted small scale improvements to allowing passing for example. It may be a make do and mend solution that lacks vision, but given the current climate thats the best one could hope foir.
 

MPW

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And to look at the politics behind it, I dont believe a change of government at the next election will alter anything. I suspect the opposition are going 'phew, glad we didn't have to take that decision'. Its my belief that any form of major rail investment along the lines of HS2 or NPR will not happen during at least the next political cycle. No government is going to want to commit to any projects until cost controls are improved, HS2 was the big one but Crossrail and GWR electrification also suffered badly. As a politician you are not going to put your head in the noose, much easier to just pay lip service and kick the can down the road.

Hence my original thought of what could be acheived using the current infrastructure with some minor upgrades, which in turn comes back to things like increasing capacity by running the longest possible trains and some targeted small scale improvements to allowing passing for example. It may be a make do and mend solution that lacks vision, but given the current climate thats the best one could hope foir.
I suspect that might be why starmer said he needs 2 terms to fix the country. One for legislative change then another for the projects themselves.
 

mike57

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One for legislative change
Not just legistative change, but also put in place a way of ensuring that project costs are realistic at the start, and dont spiral out of control. I have no idea where you would even start, but given the issues with HS2 something needs to change, I know some of the cost escalation was caused by external events, but this has to be the big issue.
 

Krokodil

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Up until West of Warrington when NPR services were to use a freight line!
How much freight uses it these days? No coal trains to Fiddlers Ferry any more. Could whatever's left be diverted?

I don't get why somepeople believe just because another section of a highly controversial high speed line has been canned that the much less controversial upgrades and bits of new line have been canned too ?
Warrington to Manchester Airport is easy. Manchester Airport to Piccadilly however will require a nice long tunnel. This was part of the HS2 budget, NPR were going to freeload on the back of the 5tph HS2 service (3tph London, 2tph Birmingham). Liverpool - Manchester services alone would never justify the expenditure.
 

The Ham

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NPR relied on part of HS2, without it NPR either had to be redesigned and/or carry the costs of the extra infrastructure.

Whilst improvements to East West capacity (and speed) are needed, that is currently seeing some improvements through TPU, with the plan being that one HS2 was under construction NPR could tack onto it to improve things further.

Of course HS2 was going to create significant extra capacity at Manchester, not only from the extra lines but also the extra platforms (which then free up capacity on the existing platforms for more capacity/longer trains).

I fear (and whilst it's not a certainty it is much more at risk than it was before) that no HS2 2b means no NPR, or at least such a watered down version of it that it'll do little to improve things over the current situation.
 

HSTEd

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Hence my original thought of what could be acheived using the current infrastructure with some minor upgrades, which in turn comes back to things like increasing capacity by running the longest possible trains and some targeted small scale improvements to allowing passing for example. It may be a make do and mend solution that lacks vision, but given the current climate thats the best one could hope foir.
Ultimately the answer is almost nothing.

If you want to allow passing without totally abandoning any and all resilience in the timetable, you will need to spend billions on new trackwork.
Neither of the lines between Liverpool and Manchester are at all suitable for quadroupling in any significant fashion.

The last thing the railway needs is another magical-thinking controlled upgrade (like WCRM, GWRM or TPRU) to destroy what little credibility the railway industry has left.
 

The Ham

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Ultimately the answer is almost nothing.

If you want to allow passing without totally abandoning any and all resilience in the timetable, you will need to spend billions on new trackwork.
Neither of the lines between Liverpool and Manchester are at all suitable for quadroupling in any significant fashion.

The last thing the railway needs is another magical-thinking controlled upgrade (like WCRM, GWRM or TPRU) to destroy what little credibility the railway industry has left.

Indeed, and generally if your building new tracks you shouldn't limit yourself to the assignments previously used (unless there's good reason to).
 

daodao

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5) If the Manchester tunnel proposal is not dropped, how will it possibly survive a business case examination when all the costs, previously to be borne by HS2, are now to be borne by NPR alone?
Exactly. Hopefully it will be good riddance to this expensive white elephant proposal.

The demand for fast rail travel from Liverpool to Manchester and Leeds [the key NPR route] seems to be so low that TPE are reducing the service from 2tph to 1tph between Liverpool and Manchester from December 2023, and slowing up the service with 2 instead of 1 intermediate stops between Liverpool and Manchester and introducing a long wait of about 15 minutes at Manchester Victoria.
 
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Krokodil

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Exactly. Hopefully it will be good riddance to this expensive white elephant proposal.
It is necessary for relieving congested parts of the network. The decision to cancel phase 2 is damaging for the country and for Manchester in particular.
 

daodao

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It is necessary for relieving congested parts of the network. The decision to cancel phase 2 is damaging for the country and for Manchester in particular.
The only congested part of the railway network that will be adversely affected by cancelling phase 2 of HS2 is the WCML from Rugeley to just north of Stafford, which is in the North Midlands, not North-West England. I think that a mistake has been made in cancelling the relatively less expensive phase 2a of HS2. However, I accept that phase 2 of HS2 is dead in the water.

Manchester's rail problems can be solved by making better use of existing infrastructure such as redesigning through services to reduce crossing moves on the flat (e.g. all Southport services should go to Victoria platforms 5/6) and increasing train lengths where indicated by demand. Other remedies include adding sidings east/west of Victoria to allow more trains to terminate there but lay over clear of the platforms, mothballing the Ordsall curve, and conversion of secondary suburban lines (to Hadfield, Marple Rose Hill and possibly the Atherton line) to Metrolink.
 
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Krokodil

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The only congested part of the railway network that will be adversely affected by cancelling phase 2 of HS2 is the WCML from Rugeley to just north of Stafford, which is in the North Midlands, not North-West England.
What about Stockport? Crewe? Plenty of services that deserve an increase in frequency but there's no spare capacity. Freeing up five paths an hour through Stockport could mean more space for stopping trains.

Manchester's rail problems can be solved by making better use of existing infrastructure such as redesigning through services to reduce crossing moves on the flat (e.g. all Southport services should go to Victoria platforms 5/6) and increasing train lengths where indicated by demand. Other remedies include adding sidings east/west of Victoria to allow more trains to terminate there but lay over clear of the platforms, mothballing the Ordsall curve,
So sod the passengers, we'll take them where it's convenient for the railway rather than where the passengers actually want to go. Why not abolish the Windsor Link while you're at it? In my experience it's the Blackpool services that import the most delays.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

This is all separate from the fact that the lack of 400m platforms at Picc will prevent the HS2 services from running at the length we so sorely need. Manchester - London must be the most profitable flow on the network, it needs room to grow.
 

MarkyT

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Up until West of Warrington when NPR services were to use a freight line!
A very little used freight line today that would no doubt be heavily rebuilt and diverted in places to eliminate the twisty bits and level crossings. The point is to create a dedicated segregated track for fast trains, whether HS2, NPR or other express service with the same limited stop calling pattern.
 

HSTEd

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I think the service cuts are more telling about the undesirability of Victoria station to the travelling public than anything else.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Exactly. Hopefully it will be good riddance to this expensive white elephant proposal.

The demand for fast rail travel from Liverpool to Manchester and Leeds [the key NPR route] seems to be so low that TPE are reducing the service from 2tph to 1tph between Liverpool and Manchester from December 2023, and slowing up the service with 2 instead of 1 intermediate stops between Liverpool and Manchester and introducing a long wait of about 15 minutes at Manchester Victoria.
TPE's forthcoming service reduction is an overdue reaction to the problems with staffing levels and training that were initiated by the pandemic and that were to some extent being ignored until now. They do not represent long term aspirations on behalf of TPE or anyone else with an interest in developing connectivity across the north. Given the calamitous state of so much of the country's public service provision it is probably wise to take a step backwards now while planning to take several steps forward in the future. Unless of course you think that economic stagnation is a desirable feature of life for us northerners.
 

The Ham

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The only congested part of the railway network that will be adversely affected by cancelling phase 2 of HS2 is the WCML from Rugeley to just north of Stafford, which is in the North Midlands, not North-West England. I think that a mistake has been made in cancelling the relatively less expensive phase 2a of HS2. However, I accept that phase 2 of HS2 is dead in the water.

Manchester's rail problems can be solved by making better use of existing infrastructure such as redesigning through services to reduce crossing moves on the flat (e.g. all Southport services should go to Victoria platforms 5/6) and increasing train lengths where indicated by demand. Other remedies include adding sidings east/west of Victoria to allow more trains to terminate there but lay over clear of the platforms, mothballing the Ordsall curve, and conversion of secondary suburban lines (to Hadfield, Marple Rose Hill and possibly the Atherton line) to Metrolink.

I'd argue that Manchester's immediate rail problems can be solved as you mention, however that doesn't solve Manchester's wider transport issues (such as congested roads), one of the failing of HS2 Ltd was the poor communication over the potential for increased capacity for the residual services/platforms.

Others will point out that HS2 was due to free up 2 platforms in Manchester, however to simplify things let's look at what one Fred up platform could provide.

Platform X is currently used by 2 long distance services an hour with 11 coaches each. The two neighboring platforms (Y and Z) each have 9 services (total of 18 services) over the hour averaging 4 coaches each (as the local services can turn around within 20 minutes and they stack 3 trains in each platform).

In the future Platform X still has two residual services to cater for the local stations, however these are able to turn around in 20 minutes as they are now local services and are typically 6 coaches long. That then allows 4 services from platforms Y and Z to divert to platform X and those diverted services can be lengthened from 4 to 6 coaches long.

However those services are now no longer taking up platform space on platforms Y and Z, allowing the 8 services which used to share a platform with them to also be lengthened from 4 to 6 coaches. That means of the previous 18 local services 12 have been lengthened.

It could even be that (because we're taking average lengths) that it was a 6 coach service and two services with 3 coaches, the 6 coach service might not be able to be lengthened (due to other platforms on the route it serves), so whilst it may not get longer the other two services could double in length.

That's on top of the significant extra rail capacity which the HS2 services would have provided between the city and the airport through it having much higher capacity trains) could have meant the need for fewer other services to go there.

However, once NPR was built (or at least allowing the running of other services, predominantly TPE and/or XC services) there could have been scope to shift more services to the HS2 platforms, so even more services could be lengthened.

If rail growth sees an annual increase of 2.5% then by 2040 you'd need to provide for 52% more people than is currently the case. Even at 1.3%, that's an extra 25%. Assuming that there's some space currently under used (which I doubt is often the case in peak services) do you really think that you could get at least 10%, and you'd probably need to have a plan for up to 35%, more onto the trains by the measures you've suggested?

There's a good chance that between now and 2040 (even with HS2 going ahead) that you'd have needed at least some of those things to happen just to keep up with demand.

That's before you start to consider what might be needed by 2055, where at 2.5% growth per year we're looking at a doubling of rail use, (assuming a 20% fall from 2019, that's still 163 passengers for every 100 in 2019).

Whilst you may argue that 2.5% growth for a 29 year period may be unlikely, between 2009 and 2023 (again allowing for a 20% fall from the 2019 peak), rail growth over that timeframe has managed to average 2.2% (which given there's staff shortages, strikes and a reduction in services all surprising demand as well as a cost of living crisis, and a major pandemic both having their own impacts isn't bad going). As such, whilst 2.5% might be a bit too high, much less than 2% might be a bit too low.

Therefore, having a plan which allows for 2.5% growth (and slowing down the rate of delivery of certain projects if growth is more sluggish or keeping going if it's on track) isn't a particularly reckless plan.
 

daodao

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TPE's forthcoming service reduction is an overdue reaction to the problems with staffing levels and training that were initiated by the pandemic and that were to some extent being ignored until now. They do not represent long term aspirations on behalf of TPE or anyone else with an interest in developing connectivity across the north. Given the calamitous state of so much of the country's public service provision it is probably wise to take a step backwards now while planning to take several steps forward in the future. Unless of course you think that economic stagnation is a desirable feature of life for us northerners.
It is difficult to make a case for significant infrastructure investment for a route at the same time as reducing services on it.
 

The Ham

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It is difficult to make a case for significant infrastructure investment for a route at the same time as reducing services on it.

It depends on the reason for the reduction, if it's down to staffing issues they could be resolved within 24 months, significant infrastructure plans could be looking to be developed within 24 years (2009 to 2033 for HS2).

Also I'd rather have a timetable with 1tph that ran as it should than one with 10tph where you got don't know which train is running and you may have some hours with no trains.
 

Krokodil

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It is difficult to make a case for significant infrastructure investment for a route at the same time as reducing services on it.
The service reduction is temporary, it's been done because of lack of supply, not lack of demand. The LHCS sets won't be back, but once TPE have got on top of their driver training the rest of the service will be. They will be keeping all of the 185s instead of off-leasing some of them. No one who has seen the loadings on many TPE services would think that demand was down.
 

WatcherZero

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Get the feeling the North and Midlands are going to build HS2 and Westminster be damned. Birmingham mayor is lobbying for the 2a route to be protected until the next election like the 2b route was given 9 months for Burnham and Rotherham decide whether to keep it or replace it.


Fund for Northern Powerhouse Rail could reach £20bn
02 NOV, 2023 BY GREG PITCHER

An extra £8bn-plus could be pumped into the Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) project, bringing the fund to £20bn, the Manchester mayor has said.
Mayor of Manchester Andy Burnham said investment in the eagerly awaited high speed link from Liverpool to Manchester could be higher than anticipated.
The government promised to invest £12bn to connect the two cities through its Network North package, which replaced the axed Manchester and Midlands legs of High Speed 2 (HS2) last month.
But following a meeting on Monday with Liverpool mayor Steve Rotheram and rail minister Huw Merriman, Burnham told reporters this week that this was not the full picture. Speaking at a press conference about the government's U-turn on ticket office closures, he explained what had been discussed in the meeting.

Burnham explaiend that there was already £4bn committed to the NPR project from November 2021's Integrated Rail Plan (IRP) and, added to the £12bn from Network North, that makes £16bn.
He also said there us the potential to use an uplift in land values to add a potential £4bn more.
He said that Merriman “indicated a willingness to really work with us around the place-based regeneration that the right railway could bring to city centre Liverpool, Warrington, Manchester Airport and Manchester Piccadilly”.
Burnham continued: “We confirmed that our ambitions remain a station at Manchester Airport and an underground station at Manchester Piccadilly.
“The minister said he was open to the idea of land value capture playing a part in that so that the lift in land values that comes by putting in modern infrastructure, some of that can be brought back to to help pay for that infrastructure.
“So can we make the £16bn [into] £20bn for instance, or even a little more, so that we can achieve the ambitions [Liverpool, Warrington and Manchester have]?
“It was a positive meeting.”

NPR was promised in 2015 as a high-speed line connecting major cities from Liverpool to Hull. With the release of the IRP, the government scaled back the plan significantly, only promising to build the “core network” between Liverpool, Manchester and Leeds.
In its Network North document, the Department for Transport (DfT) said: “We will invest a further £12bn to better connect Manchester to Liverpool. This would allow the delivery of NPR as previously planned, including high-speed lines.”

Rail operations specialist William Barter said this initial sum could be swallowed up by the complex 'western approaches' job, including a 13km tunnel between Manchester Airport near the M56 and Ardwick in Manchester city centre. This was initially to be delivered by HS2, and commentators have suggested its delivery could eventually create a business case for resurrecting the axed leg of the megaproject.
“The extra £8bn will be for the railway between Liverpool and Manchester Airport,” Barter suggested.

But he added: “Without HS2 trains sharing the infrastructure I can’t see that level of spend being justified by Northern Powerhouse Rail alone. The next step can only be to see provision for HS2 to use the new route into either Liverpool or Manchester or both, on the assumption that the Handsacre-Crewe-Manchester Airport gap must and will be filled eventually.”

Burnham said the latest meeting had given him hope of a bright future beyond HS2.
“We have got a chance now as a North West region to bring forward a modern railway for the 21st century led by the two city regions, working with Cheshire and Lancashire, that is actually quite an exciting opportunity.
“We still wish we weren't here, but there's always something to be gained from any situation. If we can proceed on that basis, then we could yet salvage something from this whole situation.”

The Department for Transport has been contacted for comment.

Cue the Sinatra song...

And now the end is here
And so I face that final curtain
My friend I'll make it clear
I'll state my case, of which I'm certain
I've lived a life that's full
I traveled each and every highway
And more, much more
I did it, I did it my way

Regrets, I've had a few
But then again too few to mention
I did what I had to do
I saw it through without exemption
I planned each charted course
Each careful step along the byway
And more, much, much more
I did it, I did it my way

Yes, there were times I'm sure you knew
When I bit off more than I could chew
But through it all, when there was doubt
I ate it up and spit it out
I faced it all and I stood tall and did it my way
 
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Arkeeos

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Get the feeling the North and Midlands are going to build HS2 and Westminster be damned. Birmingham mayor is lobbying for the 2a route to be protected until the next election like the 2b route was given 9 months for Burnham and Rotherham decide whether to keep it or replace it.
If the government wants to justify NPR, then they will have to concede to reality and build HS2 to get it.

I am partly expecting multiple climb downs then an admission that HS2 has to go to Manchester on a dedicated route in some form.

If it so happens that government somehow justifies a new approach into Manchester solely on the back of NPR, then the business case of connecting that to Handsacre would be excellent.
 
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daodao

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Get the feeling the North and Midlands are going to build HS2 and Westminster be damned.
Dream on. It ain't going to happen. The current government is likely to be in office at least until October 2024, which is plenty of time for it to ensure that phase 2a can't be resurrected. An expensive new build for NPR, as distinct from an upgrade of existing lines from Liverpool via Manchester to Leeds, won't have a viable business case without riding on the back of HS2 phase 2b, which won't be built in the absence of phase 2a.
 

fishwomp

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Get the feeling the North and Midlands are going to build HS2 and Westminster be damned. Birmingham mayor is lobbying for the 2a route to be protected until the next election like the 2b route was given 9 months for Burnham and Rotherham decide whether to keep it or replace it.
Let's think this through.

Option 1 - Phase 2s' land preserved to next election.

Option 2 - lands not preserved.

Option 1 means incoming government almost obliged to carry on with and finance expensive but not massively cared about project

Option 2 incoming government can blame previous one for making it impossible to restart and instead target priority like health and defence

If I were that new government, option 2 would be far better - I would spend money on things that were actually priority and achievable in one term.

So, the best strategy is to complain and object, to milk the damage to the Tories, whilst ultimately hoping not to be successful. Getting the Mayors to do it rather than the parliamentary party fits that bill.
 

fishwomp

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No it doesn't
This forum needs a betting book/log - it'd be fun and make some threads a bit more easy to agree to disagree - and the mods could have fun running the book ;)

Note the word "almost". But ultimately how could a Labour government, after everything said about the project then decide not to continue if the door were open? They'd get the same criticism that they and the mayors have piled on to the current government. Hence I bet a private preference for this to actually be settled before they come to power.

The poor buggers could still be explaining delays and continued shenanigans at Euston through the duration of their first term of office after all..

Andy Burnham is 4-1 at Paddy Power to be the leader (https://www.paddypower.com/politics?tab=uk) after Starmer - that will make for some interesting dynamics during Starmer's term - hence possible actions to mitigate the sniping towards the time of the 2028/9 election could include starting to sound like going ahead with revised plans around 2028.
 

zwk500

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This forum needs a betting book/log - it'd be fun and make some threads a bit more easy to agree to disagree - and the mods could have fun running the book ;)

Note the word "almost". But ultimately how could a Labour government, after everything said about the project then decide not to continue if the door were open? They'd get the same criticism that they and the mayors have piled on to the current government. Hence I bet a private preference for this to actually be settled before they come to power.

The poor buggers could still be explaining delays and continued shenanigans at Euston through the duration of their first term of office after all..

Andy Burnham is 4-1 at Paddy Power to be the leader (https://www.paddypower.com/politics?tab=uk) after Starmer - that will make for some interesting dynamics during Starmer's term - hence possible actions to mitigate the sniping towards the time of the 2028/9 election could include starting to sound like going ahead with revised plans around 2028.
Option 1 only makes it easier for the incoming government to carry on with the project. However there are considerable questions about the current government's ability and authority to dispose of the land before the next election. There is very little time left in the parliamentary calendar to pass any additional legislation should it be required, and simply agreeing prices could well take more than the 12 months or so until the next election (must be no later than Jan 25, but realistically will be summer/autumn 24).
 

philosopher

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Dream on. It ain't going to happen. The current government is likely to be in office at least until October 2024, which is plenty of time for it to ensure that phase 2a can't be resurrected. An expensive new build for NPR, as distinct from an upgrade of existing lines from Liverpool via Manchester to Leeds, won't have a viable business case without riding on the back of HS2 phase 2b, which won't be built in the absence of phase 2a.
In the short and medium term I agree HS2 phase 2 will not happen. Longer term I think it is still possible.

By 2035 we could be in a situation where HS2 passenger numbers have exceeded forecasts, the completion of phase 1 has moved the bottlenecks on the WCML further north such as around Colwich and Stafford, Andy Burnham who is very pro HS2 has succeeded Kier Starmer as PM and UK government finances are in a healthy position. In this scenario I can certainly see HS2 phase 2 or something similar be reinstated.
 

Arkeeos

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Option 1 only makes it easier for the incoming government to carry on with the project. However there are considerable questions about the current government's ability and authority to dispose of the land before the next election. There is very little time left in the parliamentary calendar to pass any additional legislation should it be required, and simply agreeing prices could well take more than the 12 months or so until the next election (must be no later than Jan 25, but realistically will be summer/autumn 24).
I am fairly certain that they will not be able to pawn off the land in a year, there's likely to be a judicial review + the fact that if they wanted it done in the year they would have to sell it still with CPO powers active + They still have yet to divide up the land and figure out how to sell and what to sell it for, which would be a long review + They have to take the inevitable bad press of selling off the land, which is something they cannot afford.

I wouldn't put it passed them that they had just forgot about all of those potential procedures, The announcement was hardly professional and well thought out.
 
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