Orrell-Liverpool Valid via Wigan?

[Stonesourscotty]

Can anyone confirm or deny this as Northern guards ok it but ticket inspectors say no.

 

[island]

Hooray, a routeing question!

Orrell has Liverpool Group as an associated routeing point, so the permitted routeing is direct via the shortest distance from the origin to the destination over which a regular scheduled passenger train service operates. That would appear to be via Kirkby only.

PS What do you understand the difference between a guard and a ticket inspector to be?

 

[Stonesourscotty]

Securicor jobsworths at Wigan Wallgate and a guard is a ticket salesperson

Shame really as its a very common issue what with the Kirkby line shutting so early thats further put me off going Liverpool really as its cheaper to go to Manchester even though Manc is Further away and Manchester has Nightbuses Home if i stay out to late where as Liverpool doesnt Same argument applies for Preston/Bolton.

Would best bet be Buy a Wigan-Liverpool and Travel short?

Does regular mean even the line has shut for the night? can i use it via Southport and Wigan instead of via Kirkby? as the guard was unsure of that one too...

 

[island]

A ticket from Wigan Stations to Liverpool Stations isn't valid to get from Orrell to Wigan.

Regular I think is in the "normal" sense rather than the "frequent" sense. I don't think you can use the ticket via Wigan late either. The National Rail Enquiries site agrees and says that travel via Wigan (including walking between WGW and WGN) requires two tickets.

There doesn't appear to be any easements in place to allow this, sadly.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

I mean could i get on at Orrell and buy a Wigan-Liverpool ticket so that i can return to Wigan and then travel Wigan-Orrell by First or Arriva Bus due to no trains running later on? is that alright or would i get the why didnt you buy a ticket at Wigan Rubbish?

Why is Orrell bunched with Liverpool when its in Greater Manchester? and has nothing to do with Merseyside and infact shares a Boundary with West Lancashire through Upholland/Tontine and doesnt share a county boundary with Merseyside?

 

[323235]

Securicor jobsworths at Wigan Wallgate

I don't see how they are qualified to make such a judgement. FCC as an example have already said as such about there own barrier staff. Plus its 99% likely they won't even know what the routing guide is, let alone how to use it to check.

 

[WestCoast]

If you buy an Orrell - Edge Hill ticket, it's only 20p more for a day return and is valid via Liverpool stations or Wigan stations.

You could then travel via Liverpool outbound and then via Wigan inbound. Just make sure that you get on a train that stops at Edge Hill on the way back.

 

[First class]

If you buy an Orrell - Edge Hill ticket, it's only 20p more for a day return and is valid via Liverpool stations or Wigan stations.

You could then travel via Liverpool outbound and then via Wigan inbound. Just make sure that you get on a train that stops at Edge Hill on the way back.

Well, if it REALLY is valid via Wigan (Orrell - Edge Hill) then it would surely be a better idea to get one Orrell-Wavertree Technology Park, just simply because so much more stops there.

 

[WestCoast]

Well, if it REALLY is valid via Wigan (Orrell - Edge Hill) then it would surely be a better idea to get one Orrell-Wavertree Technology Park, just simply because so much more stops there.

Infact, an Orrell - Wavertree Technology Park day return is the same price, so yes it would be wise to buy one to there instead.

NRES and Merseyrail/Raileasy both say via Wigan is a valid route for the ticket, whereas they don't for Orrell - Liverpool stations.

G4S at Wigan Wallgate aren't particularly knowledgeable unfortunately, mention the Routeing Guide and they will let you through.

The only time I had an issue in this area was on Merseyrail with a Frodsham - Preston ticket which is valid via Chester and Liverpool but this was disputed by on-train staff (are they guards or ticket examiners on Merseyrail?). Anyway, the guy was pleasant and it was resolved quickly.

 

[First class]

Infact, an Orrell - Wavertree Technology Park day return is the same price, so yes it would be wise to buy one to there instead.

NRES and Merseyrail/Raileasy both say via Wigan is a valid route for the ticket, whereas they don't for Orrell - Liverpool stations.

G4S at Wigan Wallgate aren't particularly knowledgeable unfortunately, mention the Routeing Guide and they will let you through.

The only time I had an issue in this area was on Merseyrail with a Frodsham - Preston ticket which is valid via Chester and Liverpool but this was disputed by on-train staff (are they guards or ticket examiners on Merseyrail?). Anyway, the guy was pleasant and it was resolved quickly.

Merseyrail have Revenue Protection Inspectors, all trained in PACE, Byelaw Enforcement Officers, also all trained in PACE and Penalty Fares and guards who are supposed to ticket check and report regular instances of fare evasion to the RPI Manager/Team Leaders/Prosecution Dept. Guards cannot sell tickets, but can check them.

Assuming the Frodsham-Preston ticket was routed ANY PERMITTED, via Chester and Liverpool (via Birkenhead) is fine, but not route MANCHESTER.

 

[WestCoast]

Assuming the Frodsham-Preston ticket was routed ANY PERMITTED, via Chester and Liverpool (via Birkenhead) is fine, but not route MANCHESTER.

It was indeed routed Any Permitted. I have always found Merseyrail a very good TOC, excellent staffing policy at the majority of stations (could show Northern/TfGM a lot in GM), frequent services, cheap fares and friendly staff. Shame it's unlikely to be expanded to Preston via Ormskirk!

 

[Stonesourscotty]

So Orrell to Wavertree it is then Thanks alot...

Anyone got a answer if i can use one via Southport as then i have two "Night routes home"?

Yea the Jobsworths at Wallgate have a reputation among wiganers for being poorly trained and seem to be scaring customers away... would be better if a Northern staff member could assist them?

 

[First class]

From what I can gather, you need to be aware that a ORRELL-WAVERTREE ticket is only valid as follows:

ORRELL-KIRKBY-LIVERPOOL, but you could then return via LIVERPOOL-WIGAN-ORRELL

ORRELL-WIGAN-WAVERTREE (NOT LIVERPOOL STNS), you would return via the same route OR WAVERTREE-LIVERPOOL-KIRKBY-WIGAN

ORRELL-WIGAN-NEWTON LE WILLOWS-WAVERTREE (it is almost impossible to do this route anyway due to only 2 trains a day taking that route)

 

[clagmonster]

First Class, my interpretation is:
Orrell and Wavertree are both related stations to the Liverpool Group.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/routeing_point_identifier.pdf pages 45 & 63
Therefore, "the permitted
route is direct via the shortest distance from the origin to the destination
over which a regular scheduled passenger train service operates."
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf page 2

Candidates for the shortest route are:
Orrell-Wigan W 3.75 http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/Dec10/timetables/Table82.pdf
Wigan NW-St Helens Central-Wavertree 17.5 http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/Dec10/timetables/Table90.pdf
Total 21.25 miles

Orrell-Kirkby 8.5 http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/Dec10/timetables/Table82.pdf
Kirkby-Moorfields 7 http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/Dec10/timetables/Table103.pdf
Moorfield-Liverpool LS 0.5 http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/Dec10/timetables/Table106.pdf
Liverpool LS-Wavertree 2.5 http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/Dec10/timetables/Table90.pdf
Total 18.5 miles

Therefore, the shortest route is via Kirkby and Liverpool, so it is my interpretation that this is the only route.
Some people believe that a clause in the Routeing Guide in Detail section make routes within 3 miles of this valid, this would make the route via Wigan and St. Helens Central valid, but still would not make the route via St. Helen's Junction valid.

 

[WestCoast]

Therefore, the shortest route is via Kirkby and Liverpool, so it is my interpretation that this is the only route.
Some people believe that a clause in the Routeing Guide in Detail section make routes within 3 miles of this valid, this would make the route via Wigan and St. Helens Central valid, but still would not make the route via St. Helen's Junction valid.

Put simply, the route via Wigan and St Helens Central will be accepted by guards, whatever the routeing guide says.

The route via Newton-le-Willows and St Helens Junction I am not so sure on.

 

[strange6]

Put simply, the route via Wigan and St Helens Central will be accepted by guards, whatever the routeing guide says.

The route via Newton-le-Willows and St Helens Junction I am not so sure on.

Which brings us back to those ticket checkers at Wigan Wallgate and pot luck. Some will let you go and some will hold you back and challenge you

 

[John @ home]

Candidates for the shortest route are:
Orrell-Wigan W 3.75
Wigan NW-St Helens Central-Wavertree 17.5
Total 21.25 miles

Orrell-Kirkby 8.5
Kirkby-Moorfields 7
Moorfield-Liverpool LS 0.5
Liverpool LS-Wavertree 2.5
Total 18.5 miles

Therefore, the shortest route is via Kirkby and Liverpool, so it is my interpretation that this is the only route.

Interesting. Why is it your interpretation that Orrell to Wavertree via St Helens Central is not a permitted route, clagmonster?

Some people believe that a clause in the Routeing Guide in Detail section make routes within 3 miles of this valid, this would make the route via Wigan and St. Helens Central valid

The relevant sentence is:

Journeys on direct trains or taking the route of shortest distance or a distance longer by no more than 3 miles are always following a permitted route.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/nrg_detail.pdf

but still would not make the route via St. Helen's Junction valid.

I agree. Orrell to Wavertree via St Helens Junction is 24.5 miles, and that would not be valid.

 

[strange6]

The quickest way by far would be going to Wigan from orrel to get to WTP; so it must be valid. And you only change once as well.
Can't see where St Helens Junction comes into this as well because it's the other side of St Helens and that would mean you would have to go to Wigan, catch one of the twice daily direct services that go through SHJ, on your way to Liverpool to get a train to WTP!

 

[John @ home]

The quickest way by far would be going to Wigan from orrel to get to WTP; so it must be valid.

That's not right. Journey speed is not a factor in whether a route is permitted or not. The National Routeing Guide tells us that permitted routes are:

• the route taken by a through train between the origin and destination on the ticket, if travelling on such a train (page A1), or
• the shortest route calculated by the distances in the National Rail Timetable (page A1), or
• a route not more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route, calculated as above (page F9), or
• a mapped route which is not prohibited by an "easement" (pages F9 and F10), or
• a route permitted by an easement (page F10).

Can't see where St Helens Junction comes into this as well because it's the other side of St Helens and that would mean you would have to go to Wigan, catch one of the twice daily direct services that go through SHJ, on your way to Liverpool to get a train to WTP!

No. Both the 0647 and 1821 services Wigan NW - Liverpool Lime St via St Helens Jn call at Wavertree at 0731 and 1903 respectively. There is no need to double back via Liverpool. But we have established in posts #14 and #17 above that this is not a permitted route with a Orrell - Liverpool Stations route Any Permitted ticket.

For anyone who has a particular interest in fares, ticketing & routeing, yorkie pointed out in this thread that we do have places available at fares workshops in Manchester, Sheffield and London this Summer, so if you are interested please send him a PM.

 

[strange6]

That's not right. Journey speed is not a factor in whether a route is permitted or not. The National Routeing Guide tells us that permitted routes are:

• the route taken by a through train between the origin and destination on the ticket, if travelling on such a train (page A1), or
• the shortest route calculated by the distances in the National Rail Timetable (page A1), or
• a route not more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route, calculated as above (page F9), or
• a mapped route which is not prohibited by an "easement" (pages F9 and F10), or
• a route permitted by an easement (page F10).

No. Both the 0647 and 1821 services Wigan NW - Liverpool Lime St via St Helens Jn call at Wavertree at 0731 and 1903 respectively. There is no need to double back via Liverpool. But we have established in posts #14 and #17 above that this is not a permitted route with a Orrell - Liverpool Stations route Any Permitted ticket.

For anyone who has a particular interest in fares, ticketing & routeing, yorkie pointed out in this thread that we do have places available at fares workshops in Manchester, Sheffield and London this Summer, so if you are interested please send him a PM.

I forgot that it rejoins the route at Huyton!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I actually remember getting on one of these services when going to Liverpool Uni back in 1995. Normally the Liverpool service tails off the WCML towards St Helens Central soon after leaving Wigan NW. But on this occasion, it didn't and went straight down the WCML for a good 10 minutes. I immediately went into panic mode and just sat there wondering where the hell I was going! hahaha Anyway, it soon got to the loop but I was still unfamiliar as to where I was going. On reaching Earlestown, I had figured it out and breathed a sigh of relief I can tell you! Incidently, it's a very interesting section of railway is that Earlestown loop from a signalling perspective. The rails are rather rusty now so I would assume it's not used that often nowadays

 

[clagmonster]

Interesting. Why is it your interpretation that Orrell to Wavertree via St Helens Central is not a permitted route,

It has often been said by many on here that rules placed in this section (and negative easements, for that matter), are unenforcable because they don't appear in the instructions. If that is the case, then surely the converse also applies, ie we can't have our cake and eat it.
That said, the quote is much more exact that I remember, I suspect that legally it must hold water.

 

[tony_mac]

If that is the case, then surely the converse also applies, ie we can't have our cake and eat it.

The point of the consumer protection regulations is that because the businesses write the rules, and consumers can't change them, then the consumer can choose the most favourable interpretation to them.

So, I think (quite generally!) we can have our cake and eat it, and if the business doesn't like the result, they can just amend the rules - we don't have that option.

(and frankly, the routeing guide is a horrible mess of ambiguity and contradiction; passengers and taxpayers deserve better for their money)

There is also an argument that if you buy a ticket it is obvious that you would normally take the quickest route.
If your ticket doesn't restrict that route, then there is no information available at that time that the ticket you just bought isn't valid.
In these circumstances, I believe that any such restriction must be pointed out the customer at the time of purchase, and not hidden in the small print of the routeing guide, which the customer doesn't even have obvious access to. (try getting hold of the NRCoC and the routeing guide at a station!)

 

[Stonesourscotty]

Tried and works fine shame the conductor thought i was a tit for doing it. he was giving me some really funny looks when i explained the story. Shamefully i came back on a ex Merseyrail 142 that was Covered in excrement had extremely annoying unsupervised scouse kids after 9pm making a racket and being racist to asians and had 5 seats removed spoiling a good day think someone even robbed a seat off the train at Garswood as when i got back from the toilet it was gone

Rode 150269 in its yorkshire livery and the carriage that didnt have a toilet was making some horrible noises.

 

[WestCoast]

Tried and works fine shame the conductor thought i was a tit for doing it. he was giving me some really funny looks when i explained the story.

I'd rather be a "tit" than have an invalid ticket though

Shamefully i came back on a ex Merseyrail 142 that was Covered in excrement had extremely annoying unsupervised scouse kids after 9pm making a racket and being racist to asians and had 5 seats removed spoiling a good day think someone even robbed a seat off the train at Garswood as when i got back from the toilet it was gone

Rode 150269 in its yorkshire livery and the carriage that didnt have a toilet was making some horrible noises.

Ah, the joys of late night pacer rides