CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Lurcheroo]

Sorry to be uninformed, but the plan is that most of the 197 sets will run as 1x 3 cars or 2x 2 cars coupled right?

Will there even be some routes that get 5 or 6 cars? (3 + 3 could be coupled if they wanted to right?)

I really hope they don't plan to run the two car ones on their own too often in the long run...

Only asking as I actually skipped over getting on the 1536 service from Newport to Holyhead yesterday (later cancelled at Chester), which was running 20 minutes late because it was only two cars and got absolutely rammed full by those waiting at Newport. Got on the 1609 153+150 4 car set afterwards, which was still really busy (and 60 minutes late in the end due to a signalling fault).

They really shouldn't have started putting 197s into use until they could run most of them as coupled sets, what is currently stopping them? Is it just they're trying to replace as many of the older trains ASAP so are short forming to allow that?

The Manchester to Cardiff services are planned to be run as 5 car sets. With the 3 car being one with first class. I noticed in the proposed timetable a while back the 7:30 and 15:30 from Shrewsbury to Birmingham International was to be planned as 3x 2cars, so I’m sure there would be other examples where they are wanting to run 5 and 6 car services.

They couldn’t accept 197’s and leave them in the depot or on sidings and keep the legacy fleet until they’re all ready as there just isn’t the space for it. Not to mention all the crews would lose their competency. Unfortunately the period of change over is just something that has to happen. Things should be much better once they’re all in service though.

 

[Rhydgaled]

the plan is that most of the 197 sets will run as 1x 3 cars or 2x 2 cars coupled right?

It very much depends on the route I think. If I recall correctly the only thing officially announced was the five coaches between Swansea and Manchester that Lurcheroo mentioned above. Away from the marches line (for example in between Swansea and Carmarthen/Pembrokeshire) I would suspect single 2-car units feature strongly in the plans but nothing has been made official as far as I know. For example, there has been nothing said about how many coaches would be on the Liverpool-Chester service - if this was going to be 6 coaches I would expect them to have been crying that from the rooftops but there has been nothing so (assuming the Liverpool-Llandudno and Liverpool-Cardiff services are to be portion-worked with the two units joining/splitting at Chester, which I think is also unconfirmed) this will be at most 5 coaches with either Chester-Llandudno or Chester-Cardiff being a 2-car portion.

 

[Anonymous10]

It very much depends on the route I think. If I recall correctly the only thing officially announced was the five coaches between Swansea and Manchester that Lurcheroo mentioned above. Away from the marches line (for example in between Swansea and Carmarthen/Pembrokeshire) I would suspect single 2-car units feature strongly in the plans but nothing has been made official as far as I know. For example, there has been nothing said about how many coaches would be on the Liverpool-Chester service - if this was going to be 6 coaches I would expect them to have been crying that from the rooftops but there has been nothing so (assuming the Liverpool-Llandudno and Liverpool-Cardiff services are to be portion-worked with the two units joining/splitting at Chester, which I think is also unconfirmed) this will be at most 5 coaches with either Chester-Llandudno or Chester-Cardiff being a 2-car portion.

Knowing how busy Swansea to Carmarthen can get, especially at peak times, I would hope some trains would be longer than 2 coaches.

 

[Western 52]

Knowing how busy Swansea to Carmarthen can get, especially at peak times, I would hope some trains would be longer than 2 coaches.

Agreed, especially as a 2 car 197 has fewer seats than a 2 car 175.

 

[BenBracken]

Took a trip to Cardiff and back today from west Wales. Shuttle services with 150s/153s from Milford/Fishguard to Carmarthen in operation all day for reasons that the station staff didn’t know. But according to the guard on the way home it was because it was the first day of operation of 197s to Carmarthen and the connecting shuttles west will be in operation for ‘several weeks’. Not sure what has happened to the 175s and why the Milford - Manchester has stopped? 197s will be cleared to go further west in December.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Not sure what has happened to the 175s

Welcome to the forums!
The 175s are being withdrawn as their leases are expiring, which is being discussed here,

TfW 15x/175 withdrawals

Hello There is a thread to track the cascades of 170s to EMR, and a thread to note the day to day availability of 175s during their plague, but nothing to track the withdrawals of 150/not staying 153s/158s and 175s. Please do update this thread when you become aware of another train standing...

www.railforums.co.uk

197s will be cleared to go further west in December.

That's good to hear, sounds like progress in South Wales is going well for 197s.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Took a trip to Cardiff and back today from west Wales. Shuttle services with 150s/153s from Milford/Fishguard to Carmarthen in operation all day for reasons that the station staff didn’t know. But according to the guard on the way home it was because it was the first day of operation of 197s to Carmarthen and the connecting shuttles west will be in operation for ‘several weeks’. Not sure what has happened to the 175s and why the Milford - Manchester has stopped? 197s will be cleared to go further west in December.

You’ve answered your own question. The shuttles are because the 197s now work the bulk of the service and can’t go forward to Milford until December. The remaining 175/1s go off lease at the end of October (All 175/0s and most 175/1s already gone) and that lease cannot be extended. In my opinion, running Carmarthen to Milford shuttles is a lot better than even longer with clapped out 150s doing the full route.

 

[BenBracken]

So we have to suffer the 80’s Sprinters a while longer! Main issue is TfW don’t advertise a connection if it’s a bit tight to avoid Delay Repay if there’s a problem. The planner said I would have to wait 21 mins in Carmarthen on the way out, 48 mins on the way back. But when I checked the live times there were connections that were within 5 mins and the journey was pretty seamless in the end! Was twin 153s Carm-Mcr yesterday morning as well.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Agreed, especially as a 2 car 197 has fewer seats than a 2 car 175.

2 car 197: 116 seats
2 car 175: 122 seats
2 car 158: 134 seats
2 car 150: 108 seats
2 car 153: 112 seats
These numbers are from TFW’s fleet guide so if they’re wrong don’t shoot me they also don’t include tip up seats.

I’ve seen this talked about a fair bit and whilst the 197 does have less seats than the 158 (18 less) and 175 (6 less) and I agree with the thought. My own thought is that if a 2 car 197 is busy enough that the extra couple of seats that would be in all other unit type are important, then the issue is an insufficient number of carriages.
My own example is the Cambrian coast during summer, for a number of years only 2 cars were permitted until this summer and even then a 4 car only ran 9 times the whole summer.
A 158 is often every seat filled with a few standing so that will be made worse on 197’s and I think that service would actually need to be ran as a 3 car (not that they will be able to as it stands). But I can’t see TFW being willing to put 4 coaches on it because that would be a lot of empty seats during a time period where they could be better used elsewhere on the network.

I wonder what it would take to get TFW to have some 3 cars on the Cambrian ?

 

[Western 52]

197s now running in service to Carmarthen, but seemingly not stopping at Ferryside on the down line. A bus is running between Pembrey and Burry Port and Carmarthen to cover. The platform issue at Ferryside is presumably not yet resolved?

 

[BenBracken]

No didn’t stop there yesterday. Was my first time on a 197. Seats weren’t as uncomfortable as some people were making out and fine for a two hour run. 1 bin in the entire carriage the size of a shoe box, presumably they are just letting trains get trashed now and cleaning them later?! Ride and acceleration smooth but my main gripe is the seating positions and pillars. We all moaned about this in the 80s when the Sprinters came out but the 197s are far worse! The table seat I was in had a massive pillar and the dot matrix display. View was dreadful! Also the on screen display was having a fit. Kept saying the train was delayed or cancelled due to a fault. The lady with the trolley was saying their existing ones don’t fit either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No didn’t stop there yesterday. Was my first time on a 197. Seats weren’t as uncomfortable as some people were making out and fine for a two hour run. 1 bin in the entire carriage the size of a shoe box, presumably they are just letting trains get trashed now and cleaning them later?! Ride and acceleration smooth but my main gripe is the seating positions and pillars. We all moaned about this in the 80s when the Sprinters came out but the 197s are far worse!

They really aren't. 150/1s have no seats aligned properly. 197s at least have some. Could be better of course, the 158 has all seats aligned.

I'd say the alignment on the 150/2 (most of TfW's) and the 197 are about the same overall, though the 197 has more, narrower windows so it isn't quite the same.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

But when I checked the live times there were connections that were within 5 mins

Connections under 5 minutes aren't allowed to be advertised, all stations have a minimum connection time of 5 minutes unless written otherwise (e.g. Manchester Piccadilly has 10 minutes).

 

[OrangeJuice]

Connections under 5 minutes aren't allowed to be advertised, all stations have a minimum connection time of 5 minutes unless written otherwise (e.g. Manchester Piccadilly has 10 minutes).

Except Machynlleth and Dovey Junction where 4 is the minimum connection time, I'm sure there are other quirky examples

 

[BenBracken]

Any news on the 197s down to Pembroke Dock yet? Is it the Narberth tunnel that is holding things up?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

So we have to suffer the 80’s Sprinters a while longer!

Only on the short shuttle, rather than the full six hour journey to Manchester, is the point of the split

Any news on the 197s down to Pembroke Dock yet? Is it the Narberth tunnel that is holding things up?

I’d personally say Milford is more of a priority all the while that’s the branch with the extension east and north. Mind you, I was never sure why Milford got that and not Pembroke. For Haverfordwest perhaps, though that surely can’t be a bigger catchment than Tenby.

 

[Western 52]

Only on the short shuttle, rather than the full six hour journey to Manchester, is the point of the split


I’d personally say Milford is more of a priority all the while that’s the branch with the extension east and north. Mind you, I was never sure why Milford got that and not Pembroke. For Haverfordwest perhaps, though that surely can’t be a bigger catchment than Tenby.

Possibly as Haverfordwest is the county town?

 

[Jez]

Only on the short shuttle, rather than the full six hour journey to Manchester, is the point of the split


I’d personally say Milford is more of a priority all the while that’s the branch with the extension east and north. Mind you, I was never sure why Milford got that and not Pembroke. For Haverfordwest perhaps, though that surely can’t be a bigger catchment than Tenby.

Because the Pembroke Dock trains were difficult to fit in with the West Wales to Manchester pattern as they need to cross at the loop at Tenby which is the only place on the entire line from Whitland to Pembroke dock thay they can..So it made sense to limit them to running as far as Swansea for the most part. Also there is a very long turnaround as Tenby to Pembroke Dock and back cant quite be done in less than 1 hour to allow a sufficient turnaround. With the Milford branch i believe there is only a small amount of single track after Haverfordwest which makes it more flexible in that they don't have to cross anywhere at a set time.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Because the Pembroke Dock trains were difficult to fit in with the West Wales to Manchester pattern as they need to cross at the loop at Tenby which is the only place on the entire line from Whitland to Pembroke dock thay they can..So it made sense to limit them to running as far as Swansea for the most part. Also there is a very long turnaround as Tenby to Pembroke Dock and back cant quite be done in less than 1 hour to allow a sufficient turnaround. With the Milford branch i believe there is only a small amount of single track after Haverfordwest which makes it more flexible in that they don't have to cross anywhere at a set time.

That makes a lot of sense, thank you

 

[Western 52]

Because the Pembroke Dock trains were difficult to fit in with the West Wales to Manchester pattern as they need to cross at the loop at Tenby which is the only place on the entire line from Whitland to Pembroke dock thay they can..So it made sense to limit them to running as far as Swansea for the most part. Also there is a very long turnaround as Tenby to Pembroke Dock and back cant quite be done in less than 1 hour to allow a sufficient turnaround. With the Milford branch i believe there is only a small amount of single track after Haverfordwest which makes it more flexible in that they don't have to cross anywhere at a set time.

Haverfordwest to Clarbeston Road is also single track, although was double until about 1988.

 

[Anonymous10]

Possibly as Haverfordwest is the county town?

I mean personally I see no reason it couldn't alternate between each branch.

 

[Jez]

Haverfordwest to Clarbeston Road is also single track, although was double until about 1988.

Ah yes id forgot that section was also single track

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I mean personally I see no reason it couldn't alternate between each branch.

It wouldnt be possible due to the journey time between Whitland and Pembroke Dock unless you had an even longer turnaround time than the 50 or so minutes there already. I think the once a day Tenby service (Pembroke Dock on a Saturday) is about all they can manage at the moment.

 

[Thunderer]

Took a 197 for the first time today - 197047 between Cardiff and Carmarthen this afternoon. The ride quality for a new train was absolutely shocking it was particularly bad west of Swansea. I was sat above the bogies, but the clanking, banging and “hunting” of the bogies could be clearly felt inside the train and through the seat Has anyone else experienced this dubious ride quality? The interior is just like a GWR IET… hard, thin seats and cheap plastic fittings that annoyingly rattle when the train is travelling at speed. I certainly wouldn’t fancy a long journey on one of these all the way from West Wales to Manchester. Whatever happened to passenger comfort? I’ll 100% be opting for the 67 and MK IV sets if I need to travel up the Marches line in the future.

 

[Western 52]

Took a 197 for the first time today - 197047 between Cardiff and Carmarthen this afternoon. The ride quality for a new train was absolutely shocking it was particularly bad west of Swansea. I was sat above the bogies, but the clanking, banging and “hunting” of the bogies could be clearly felt inside the train and through the seat Has anyone else experienced this dubious ride quality? The interior is just like a GWR IET… hard, thin seats and cheap plastic fittings that annoyingly rattle when the train is travelling at speed. I certainly wouldn’t fancy a long journey on one of these all the way from West Wales to Manchester. Whatever happened to passenger comfort? I’ll 100% be opting for the 67 and MK IV sets if I need to travel up the Marches line in the future.

Yes I've noticed the rough ride too, even on smooth track. A real contrast to the excellent ride a 158 normally gives.

 

[BenBracken]

Only on the short shuttle, rather than the full six hour journey to Manchester, is the point of the split


I’d personally say Milford is more of a priority all the while that’s the branch with the extension east and north. Mind you, I was never sure why Milford got that and not Pembroke. For Haverfordwest perhaps, though that surely can’t be a bigger catchment than Tenby.

Ever been to Tenby in January? It’s closed Traffic down there is very seasonal, whereas Haverfordwest/Milford has a greater volume of commuters, workers associated with the oil and gas industry, students etc. Fishguard has foot passengers for the ferry, more so than Pembroke Dock as the line runs right to the terminal. Haverfordwest station always has a buzz of people on it anytime there is a train and is the only one in Pembrokeshire left with a booking clerk!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Oct 2023 ==

Took a 197 for the first time today - 197047 between Cardiff and Carmarthen this afternoon. The ride quality for a new train was absolutely shocking it was particularly bad west of Swansea. I was sat above the bogies, but the clanking, banging and “hunting” of the bogies could be clearly felt inside the train and through the seat Has anyone else experienced this dubious ride quality? The interior is just like a GWR IET… hard, thin seats and cheap plastic fittings that annoyingly rattle when the train is travelling at speed. I certainly wouldn’t fancy a long journey on one of these all the way from West Wales to Manchester. Whatever happened to passenger comfort? I’ll 100% be opting for the 67 and MK IV sets if I need to travel up the Marches line in the future.

They have an annoying whine that goes off randomly as well!

 

[pokemonsuper9]

They have an annoying whine that goes off randomly as well!

People more familiar with the 19x will likely have a better idea, but could that be part of the Air Conditioning? Most random noises I typically attribute to air con/circulation systems.

 

[Lurcheroo]

The lady with the trolley was saying their existing ones don’t fit either.

They only don’t fit in the catering cupboard. There are new trolleys but they’ve not been out into use yet. Not sure on why.
I know the stewards were concerned as the current trolleys have a little cupboard they can put their personal items into and lock but the new trolleys are smaller (to fit in the cupboard on 197’s) and don’t have that compartment but the cupbaord itself does. So perhaps they are waiting for it to be more of a 197 only fleet before changing over the trolleys.

Took a 197 for the first time today - 197047 between Cardiff and Carmarthen this afternoon. The ride quality for a new train was absolutely shocking it was particularly bad west of Swansea. I was sat above the bogies, but the clanking, banging and “hunting” of the bogies could be clearly felt inside the train and through the seat Has anyone else experienced this dubious ride quality? The interior is just like a GWR IET… hard, thin seats and cheap plastic fittings that annoyingly rattle when the train is travelling at speed. I certainly wouldn’t fancy a long journey on one of these all the way from West Wales to Manchester. Whatever happened to passenger comfort? I’ll 100% be opting for the 67 and MK IV sets if I need to travel up the Marches line in the future.

I found them fine when travelling over smooth rail (wouldn’t tell the difference to any of the current stock) but pretty rough over jointed track.
I found the seat a bit less comfortable than the 158’s and 175’s but nowhere near as bad as most people make them out to be. Certainly better then GWR IET standard class seats ! The wife and I did 2 hours on one shrewsbury to Cardiff and found it pleasant enough despite being sat over the bogie.
But we are both in total agreement with you, that we always look to try and catch a MK4 service as it’s still no comparison (especially travelling in 1st class).

 

[Anonymous10]

Ever been to Tenby in January? It’s closed Traffic down there is very seasonal, whereas Haverfordwest/Milford has a greater volume of commuters, workers associated with the oil and gas industry, students etc. Fishguard has foot passengers for the ferry, more so than Pembroke Dock as the line runs right to the terminal. Haverfordwest station always has a buzz of people on it anytime there is a train and is the only one in Pembrokeshire left with a booking clerk!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Oct 2023 ==


They have an annoying whine that goes off randomly as well!

Tenby Pembroke and Pembroke Dock have a fair number of commuters and students heading east, just the service times don't aline well.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Knowing how busy Swansea to Carmarthen can get, especially at peak times, I would hope some trains would be longer than 2 coaches.

Agreed, especially as a 2 car 197 has fewer seats than a 2 car 175.

Aye; I've even seen a 3-car 175 loading fairly well from Haverfordwest. However, Swansea-Manchester was definitely meant to be five coaches with first class (pre-COVID and the additional mark 4s) and first class has never been promised on TfW west of Swansea. That suggests the 2-car unit detaching at Swansea to continue to Milford Haven, but I suppose it's also possible that the 3-car unit would continue with first class declassified west of Swansea.

2 car 197: 116 seats
2 car 175: 122 seats
2 car 158: 134 seats
2 car 150: 108 seats
2 car 153: 112 seats
These numbers are from TFW’s fleet guide so if they’re wrong don’t shoot me they also don’t include tip up seats.

I think the figure for the 175s actually includes the tip-up seats; another document says the 2-car 175s have 118 seats. While this is virtually the same as the 197s, it should be remembered that the 175s have more bays of four (which take up more space than airline-style seats), an additional toilet, an additional 2cm between rows of airline-style seats and probably more luggage stack capacity. The 197s instead have additional standing space and a catering cupboard.

They really aren't. 150/1s have no seats aligned properly. 197s at least have some. Could be better of course, the 158 has all seats aligned.

• I believe TfW's class 158s have 16 table bays, of which one is misaligned (so 15 aligned)
• class 197s have 10, 16 or 18 table bays* but in all cases only 4 are aligned reasonably well with the windows**
• I think class 175/0 (2-car) units have 12 bays, but for some reason not all of them have a full-size table - I'm not sure how many of them are aligned or otherwise
• I understand that the class 175/1 (3-car) units have the same interior in the two driving cars as the 2-car units, with the middle coach providing an additonal 8-10 table bays (sources differ) - again I don't know whether they are aligned

* depending on whether you are looking at a 2-car unit, a 3-car unit or a 3-car with first class
** though only one, in the middle coach of the 3-car units, has a pillar dead-centre of the bay blocking both sides of the table

 

[Snow1964]

The Manchester to Cardiff services are planned to be run as 5 car sets. With the 3 car being one with first class. I noticed in the proposed timetable a while back the 7:30 and 15:30 from Shrewsbury to Birmingham International was to be planned as 3x 2cars, so I’m sure there would be other examples where they are wanting to run 5 and 6 car services.

It makes the fleet allocation and formation very complicated. 5car trains (a 2car and 3car) have been tried on Cardiff - Portsmouth and on far to many occasions when it was scheduled couldn't muster the correct units.

What tends to happen in practice is if one unit has a problem get some trains reduced to 2car because can't quickly find another 2 or 3 car unit to substitute and couple up by departure time.