Southern ticket machines being misleading.

[williamn]

Second time I’ve been caught out by this. Deliberately chose a ‘London terminals’ ticket on a Southern ticket machine. (This at Newhaven, prior instance was at Lewes).

Then chose cheapest option and paid. Only to realise the ticket I’ve been sold is actually to Victoria only.

This seems misleading to say the least. After selecting London Terminals as a destination I don’t think it’s on for a London Victoria only ticket to be offered.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@williamn. What did you actually get issued? A Super Off Peak Day Return (to London Victoria) priced at £22.50 compared with the Off Peak Day Return (to London Terminals) at £37.60?

 

[williamn]

@williamn. What did you actually get issued? A Super Off Peak Day Return (to London Victoria) priced at £22.50 compared with the Off Peak Day Return (to London Terminals) at £37.60?

A single, but yes.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

At least you've been offered the cheapest walk up single, £22.40 vs £35.80, but when you get a ticket issued to London Victoria, with no break of journey allowed, when you reckoned on getting a ticket valid for (the other) London Terminals, then you may possibly have a point.

The intermediately priced Super Off Peak Day Travelcard, at £29.50, allows a tad more flexibility, but have to say that the Super Off Peak Day Single (route NOT GATWICK EXP) seems to be cheap for a reason (i.e. it's relatively inflexible and just a step up from most Advance tickets).

 

[williamn]

Yes as you say the point is I didn’t want to go to Victoria! I wanted the flexibility of going to Waterloo or London Bridge. I don’t think you should be presented with a very inflexible fixed destination ticket after you’ve specifically pressed the ‘London terminals’ destination.

 

[MotCO]

And what would have happened if you had tried to use the ticket to London Bridge without realising it wasn't valid? Would it be the same if a ticket office gave you the Victoria ticket when you asked for London Terminals? It almost sounds like mis-selling.

 

[pelli]

Are the ticket machines journey planner based? If so, presumably the problem is the same as when buying tickets online (with a journey planner), as discussed previously here and here: The origin and destination you enter are only used to generate the itineraries, and once you select an itinerary the tickets you are offered are only matched to the selected itinerary, ignoring what you entered to start with.

It's a bit awkward for the ticket machine because it can't know whether a customer entering "London Terminals" as destination is looking for the cheapest way to London or a more expensive ticket with "London Terminals" printed on it, or indeed a ticket valid to any London Terminal station (which someone unfamiliar with rail ticketing might believe is a standard ticket type!). I guess the customer is expected, after having selected an itinerary, to understand that they have been offered all tickets valid for that specific itinerary, and need to look at the offerings carefully to see which ticket suits their needs.

I think journey planners (or indeed ticket machines that intend to then offer a more restrictive origin/destination) should not allow entering as origin/destination technical terms like "London Terminals" or "London Thameslink" that have special meaning and can be printed on a ticket as origin/destination, to avoid the customer thinking that all tickets offered will have that specific origin/destination. National Rail Enquiries only allows you to search for "London (All Stations)" which is much less likely to be misunderstood as only generating "London Terminals" tickets.

 

[williamn]

And what would have happened if you had tried to use the ticket to London Bridge without realising it wasn't valid? Would it be the same if a ticket office gave you the Victoria ticket when you asked for London Terminals? It almost sounds like mis-selling.

When it happened before the gates at Waterloo wouldn't let me out, which is when I realised what had happened! I used my credit card to get out and guess I would have been charged a full travelcard price. This time the barriers at London Bridge were open, luckily.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Oct 2023 ==

Are the ticket machines journey planner based? If so, presumably the problem is the same as when buying tickets online (with a journey planner), as discussed previously here and here: The origin and destination you enter are only used to generate the itineraries, and once you select an itinerary the tickets you are offered are only matched to the selected itinerary, ignoring what you entered to start with.

It's a bit awkward for the ticket machine because it can't know whether a customer entering "London Terminals" as destination is looking for the cheapest way to London or a more expensive ticket with "London Terminals" printed on it, or indeed a ticket valid to any London Terminal station (which someone unfamiliar with rail ticketing might believe is a standard ticket type!). I guess the customer is expected, after having selected an itinerary, to understand that they have been offered all tickets valid for that specific itinerary, and need to look at the offerings carefully to see which ticket suits their needs.

I think journey planners should not allow entering as origin/destination technical terms like "London Terminals" or "London Thameslink" that have special meaning and can be printed on a ticket as origin/destination, to avoid the customer thinking that all tickets offered will have that specific origin/destination. National Rail Enquiries only allows you to search for "London (All Stations)" which is much less likely to be misunderstood as only generating "London Terminals" tickets.

No, I didn't select an itinerary so I don't think they are.

 

[pelli]

No, I didn't select an itinerary so I don't think they are.

Ok, in that case I think if the machine intends to offer not just "London Terminals" tickets but also tickets valid to just Victoria then the option should be renamed to e.g. "London (All Stations)" or perhaps "London (any)" to avoid confusion. (And with some more effort, the user interface could make sure to highlight the actual destination that will be printed on the ticket for each option.)

 

[MrJeeves]

Are the ticket machines journey planner based?

Thankfully not.

 

[avid2424]

Post 4 says no break of journey allowed whereas the forum’s rail ticket site seems to permit a break of journey and offers an itinerary with the £22.40 fare. Always assuming the ticket allows you to go out and back in the gateline

Also I cannot find the relevant restriction code

Who is right

 

[yorkie]

Second time I’ve been caught out by this. Deliberately chose a ‘London terminals’ ticket on a Southern ticket machine. (This at Newhaven, prior instance was at Lewes).

Then chose cheapest option and paid. Only to realise the ticket I’ve been sold is actually to Victoria only.

This seems misleading to say the least. After selecting London Terminals as a destination I don’t think it’s on for a London Victoria only ticket to be offered.

Can you obtain a video? or step-by-step photos?

Post 4 says no break of journey allowed whereas the forum’s rail ticket site seems to permit a break of journey and offers an itinerary with the £22.40 fare. Always assuming the ticket allows you to go out and back in the gateline

Also I cannot find the relevant restriction code

Who is right

Break of journey is a concept that exists in human-readable form only; it is not in the fares data feed. It is also regularly misunderstood, and rarely enfoceable.

I've never heard of it being correctly enforced (i.e. people are either let off or overcharged)

 

[Feuillesmortes]

I used my credit card to get out

What is the forum view on this - better to talk to the staff and ask for it to be excessed, or just avoid conflict and get through the gates any way you can?

 

[Gaelan]

What is the forum view on this - better to talk to the staff and ask for it to be excessed, or just avoid conflict and get through the gates any way you can?

Risk of getting penalty fared if you ask for an excess, no?

 

[OscarH]

Break of journey is a concept that exists in human-readable form only; it is not in the fares data feed

Well, as far as I know there is a field for it but the values are more like "flip a coin" than correct data

 

[williamn]

Risk of getting penalty fared if you ask for an excess, no?

This is what I was worried about...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Oct 2023 ==

Can you obtain a video? or step-by-step photos?

Break of journey is a concept that exists in human-readable form only; it is not in the fares data feed. It is also regularly misunderstood, and rarely enfoceable.

I've never heard of it being correctly enforced (i.e. people are either let off or overcharged)

I'll do a video and pics next time I'm on a Southern machine. It just seems very odd to be to select a destination and then to be sold a ticket for what is effectively a different station.

 

[avid2424]

To pick up on the Super Off Peak Day Single. The Southern website and app do both advise - you cannot break and resume your journey

I am still puzzled. Just one of many questions……

Why is it called Day Single - and not just Single?

What is meant by Day - especially as it is more than clear that no break of journey is permitted

Would Super Off Peak No Break Of Journey Single be a better name

 

[The exile]

Are the ticket machines journey planner based? If so, presumably the problem is the same as when buying tickets online (with a journey planner), as discussed previously here and here: The origin and destination you enter are only used to generate the itineraries, and once you select an itinerary the tickets you are offered are only matched to the selected itinerary, ignoring what you entered to start with.

It's a bit awkward for the ticket machine because it can't know whether a customer entering "London Terminals" as destination is looking for the cheapest way to London or a more expensive ticket with "London Terminals" printed on it, or indeed a ticket valid to any London Terminal station (which someone unfamiliar with rail ticketing might believe is a standard ticket type!).

So it needs an extra pop-up in this situation saying “The ticket you have selected is valid to London Victoria only - press here for the cheapest ticket valid for travel to other London Terminals”

 

[Deafdoggie]

Why is it called Day Single - and not just Single?

What is meant by Day - especially as it is more than clear that no break of journey is permitted.

A non-day single (a "single" if you will) doesn't have to be used on the...well, day. It can be used the next day, or the day after that. A day single can only be used on...yep, you guessed it, the day.

Would Super Off Peak No Break Of Journey Single be a better name

We'd need much longer tickets to fit that on! And people would never say all that, they'd just ask for a "Super off-peak" and we'd be no further forward.

 

[williamn]

So it needs an extra pop-up in this situation saying “The ticket you have selected is valid to London Victoria only - press here for the cheapest ticket valid for travel to other London Terminals”

That would be better but I’ve already asked for London Terminals by selecting it as my destination! Why should I need to select it twice?

 

[Joey Beauchamp]

It's a tricky one because a person who rarely uses the train could select London Terminals just because they're unsure which station their train terminates at - they just want to get to London. For these passengers, an open ticket office is preferable because they can describe their journey to the clerk.

 

[OneOfThe48]

It's a tricky one because a person who rarely uses the train could select London Terminals just because they're unsure which station their train terminates at - they just want to get to London. For these passengers, an open ticket office is preferable because they can describe their journey to the clerk.

In this situation, what has been described would be better, as trains from Lewes will go to London Victoria and a passenger from Newhaven would likely change at Lewes for that train, so an irregular user would likely head to London Victoria and have been sold a cheaper ticket for that journey.

 

[avid2424]

Many thanks as always to the forum for explaining Day with regard to the Super Off Peak Day Single - It now makes perfect sense

I do not think that I would want to risk using the "non day" straightforward ordinary Single on anything other than the first day. However I will tuck away that snippet of information - just in case I would have a very last minute change of plans

And as previously discussed the Super Off Peak Day Single - Valid to Victoria does not permit a break of journey

Actually I see on the Southern website that there is also a Super Off Peak Day Single - from Newhaven Town to East Croydon at the same price (£22.40) as the Super Off Peak Day Single from Newhaven Town to Victoria - and of course no break of journey. Or ditto to West Croydon or indeed Sutton (including via Clapham Junction, but not via London Terminals)

However can the forum please confirm that Super Off Peak Day Return - To Victoria (or wherever) and then back does permit a break of journey in either or both directions. The Southern website does say break of journey permitted in either or both directions

 

[williamn]

Just to add to the complication I did actually break my journey, in Lewes. I guess this wouldn't have worked if the gates hadn't have been open!

I should say that London Victoria is given as an option on the 'home screen' of the machine, so the cheapest ticket is readily available. I had to search for London Terminals, only to end up by mistake with the Victoria ticket!

 

[Watershed]

Many thanks as always to the forum for explaining Day with regard to the Super Off Peak Day Single - It now makes perfect sense

I do not think that I would want to risk using the "non day" straightforward ordinary Single on anything other than the first day. However I will tuck away that snippet of information - just in case I would have a very last minute change of plans

And as previously discussed the Super Off Peak Day Single - Valid to Victoria does not permit a break of journey

Actually I see on the Southern website that there is also a Super Off Peak Day Single - from Newhaven Town to East Croydon at the same price (£22.40) as the Super Off Peak Day Single from Newhaven Town to Victoria - and of course no break of journey. Or ditto to West Croydon or indeed Sutton (including via Clapham Junction, but not via London Terminals)

However can the forum please confirm that Super Off Peak Day Return - To Victoria (or wherever) and then back does permit a break of journey in either or both directions. The Southern website does say break of journey permitted in either or both directions

Break of journey is fine on any of these tickets. In general, the default on the railway is that break of journey is permitted. The only cases where break of journey isn't permitted is for:

• Advance tickets - obviously you can't stop off in the middle of your journey, but you also can't start late or finish short (at least officially)
• Off-Peak tickets, if the restriction code says so - in this case, the Super Off-Peak Day tickets both have restriction code PB, which says nothing about any BoJ restrictions
• Walkup tickets where you are travelling via a route that's only permitted by virtue of you using a direct train - clearly, by breaking your journey you are no longer using a direct train. This is a pretty rare scenario but it applied to things like using an Ebbsfleet to Gravesend ticket via the Kent Coast on the HS1 'rounder' service (which were never reintroduced post-Covid)

 

[avid2424]

Post 4 and Post 12 say break of journey not permitted. And as per my Post 17 the Southern website and app state break of journey not permitted if I try to buy a ticket

However as per my Post 11 I cannot find any restriction code. The only code seems to be PB which does not include any BoJ restrictions

Is there a definitive answer? Why is there not a code to mirror what Southern say on their webpage and app

 

[MrJeeves]

Post 4 and Post 12 say break of journey not permitted. And as per my Post 17 the Southern website and app state break of journey not permitted if I try to buy a ticket

However as per my Post 11 I cannot find any restriction code. The only code seems to be PB which does not include any BoJ restrictions

Is there a definitive answer? Why is there not a code to mirror what Southern say on their webpage and app

The restriction (PB) will only display the human-readable text to a user. The BoJ restrictions is set for the ticket and flow itself in the electronic data.

The restriction from the data should be shown to a user before purchase, which I'm sure is probably an accreditation requirement.

 

[gray1404]

I've experienced this with a Southern TVM too. Purchased a ticket online from Brighton to London St Pancras (super off peak day return) with disabled Railcard. Picked it up from machine and it printed as above.

However I then purchased the exact same ticket again for a friend who was at the last minute able to come into London with me. Dispute selecting London St Pancras and this being displayed all the way through to the payment screen, it was only when the ticket printed did it say London Thameslink on it.

Given that my Railcard covers two people I would have preferred the destination on both tickets matched.

 

[STINT47]

I've experienced this with a Southern TVM too. Purchased a ticket online from Brighton to London St Pancras (super off peak day return) with disabled Railcard. Picked it up from machine and it printed as above.

However I then purchased the exact same ticket again for a friend who was at the last minute able to come into London with me. Dispute selecting London St Pancras and this being displayed all the way through to the payment screen, it was only when the ticket printed did it say London Thameslink on it.

Given that my Railcard covers two people I would have preferred the destination on both tickets matched.

London Thameslink includes St Pancras as a destination so you shouldn't have any problems.

If the price is the same the bigger problem is thst your ticket should have said London Thameslink not St Pancras. Putting St Pancras limits the tickets flexibility with no corresponding price reduction

 

[Haywain]

Putting St Pancras limits the tickets flexibility with no corresponding price reduction

I can't think of any way that it differs in flexibility from a London Thameslink ticket. In fact, it's a mystery why both options should exist.