2023 Israel - Hamas / Hezbollah war

[GS250]

Terrorist attack in Belgium leaving two dead. Also believe there was an Islamophobic attack in the USA too?

Whilst likely deaths are going to be far less than what's been happening in the Middle East, I reckon we are going to see a new wave of low tech terror attacks in the West now.

 

[Starmill]

@Sorcerer did you mean "condemned the actions of Hamas"?

 

[Sorcerer]

@Sorcerer did you mean "condemned the actions of Hamas"?

My mistake, I did mean "condemned", the word "condoned" was just flowing through my head a lot. Duly corrected.

 

[Starmill]

My mistake, I did mean "condemned", the word "condoned" was just flowing through my head a lot. Duly corrected.

No worries! Cheers

 

[PudseyBearHST]

Recently I had a small discussion with a well-informed relative of mine who similarly condoned the actions of Hamas but also mentioned the story relating to babies being beheaded. I brought up with them the idea that this claim was dubious (I myself wasn't sure at the time whether or not it was true but didn't know enough to say that it was false) and upon checking they too eventually found out that this story was somewhat false. By somewhat I mean that while it could well have happened in theory, there was no actual evidence to support the claim that it actually happened at the present time which is why many news outlets and statements about it were later retracted to admit that it could not be confirmed and therefore should not have circulated as if it were fact.

Yup but we have to taken Anthony Blinken’s word that he has seen the evidence for beheadings and other atrocities. A world leader telling the rest of the country that they have seen evidence for something to justify an invasion of another country, deja vu anyone? **cough** Tony Blair **cough**

 

[Busaholic]

I have huge respect for people who, when presented with additional information, reconsider and change their mind on any given subject. This is a sign of strength, not weakness.

It certainly is, also a sign of mental maturity. George Bernard Shaw, very much involved in the Labour Party's rise to prominence a century or so ago, had much to say on this subject, with his usual wit.

 

[yorkie]

Just a reminder to all, if referring to anything from an external source, to please add a link and quote, thanks.

Terrorist attack in Belgium leaving two dead. Also believe there was an Islamophobic attack in the USA too?

Whilst likely deaths are going to be far less than what's been happening in the Middle East, I reckon we are going to see a new wave of low tech terror attacks in the West now.

THe first one I've not read about. As for the second, the following is what you may have heard about:

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/16/us/chicago-muslim-boy-stabbing-investigation/index.html

Loved ones and strangers united in grief Monday at the funeral of a 6-year-old Chicago-area boy who was killed because he was Muslim, officials say....

Sadly the extreme actions of some rogues on any given 'side' inevitably results in racist/zenophobic attacks on completely innocent people, simply for being 'associated' with that 'side'.

The idea of attacking an innocent Jewis/Israeli or Muslim/Palestinian simply for their race/nationality/religion is completely alien to the vast majority, but there are a few absolute nutjobs out there, and it can only take one to end a life and affect many others...

Yup but we have to taken Anthony Blinken’s word that he has seen the evidence for beheadings and other atrocities. A world leader telling the rest of the country that they have seen evidence for something to justify an invasion of another country, deja vu anyone? **cough** Tony Blair **cough**

While the events you refer to of 20 years ago are very different to today, there is one parallel that people should consider: if anyone thinks all Israeli people must support their far-right government, then they have to ask themselves: did everyone support our government in 2003? And similarly if anyone thinks all Palestinians support the actions of Hamas, that's just absurd.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

While the events you refer to of 20 years ago are very different to today, there is one parallel that people should consider: if anyone thinks all Israeli people must support their far-right government, then they have to ask themselves: did everyone support our government in 2003? And similarly if anyone thinks all Palestinians support the actions of Hamas, that's just absurd.

True but I was more thinking on the lines of that the United States can’t be trusted full stop lol.

 

[Busaholic]

Yup but we have to taken Anthony Blinken’s word that he has seen the evidence for beheadings and other atrocities. A world leader telling the rest of the country that they have seen evidence for something to justify an invasion of another country, deja vu anyone? **cough** Tony Blair **cough**

Was there any 'evidence' for beheadings other than one Israeli journalist reporting being told by a soldier that he'd seen this? I understood that credence was unforthcoming from official or unofficial sources, for the initial few days at least. It goes without saying that the brutal murder of babies is the ultimate obscene war crime, but if the beheading allegation is false one can only speculate the reason for its propagation unless it's to be used as 'justification' for revenge attacks possibly using similar means.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

Was there any 'evidence' for beheadings other than one Israeli journalist reporting being told by a soldier that he'd seen this? I understood that credence was unforthcoming from official or unofficial sources, for the initial few days at least. It goes without saying that the brutal murder of babies is the ultimate obscene war crime, but if the beheading allegation is false one can only speculate the reason for its propagation unless it's to be used as 'justification' for revenge attacks possibly using similar means.

I have no idea tbh, I saw Anthony Blinken categorically stating in one of his conferences that he has seen evidence for beheadings, rape, etc… this is obviously to justify the actions of what Israel are doing. Disappointingly but unsurprisingly, the United States and Joe Biden have given Israel its unequivocal support. It wouldn’t surprise me if they have an agenda. This is why I can’t take anything they do with Ukraine seriously because they don’t care about peoples’ lives (or not all lives anyway).

 

[yorkie]

Huge respect for these people:

https://twitter.com/simonateba/status/1713965149378273373

BREAKING: I am by the White House in Washington D C where Jews are rallying in support of Palestine and Israel and are asking @netanyahu to "stop the killings", say no genocide in their names.

 

[brad465]

Huge respect for these people:

https://twitter.com/simonateba/status/1713965149378273373

The tone at political level has been slowly shifting in recent days away from unconditional support for Israel, and I expect these protests will be helping, especially if they continue.

 

[Bluejays]

Recently I had a small discussion with a well-informed relative of mine who similarly condemned the actions of Hamas but also mentioned the story relating to babies being beheaded. I brought up with them the idea that this claim was dubious (I myself wasn't sure at the time whether or not it was true but didn't know enough to say that it was false) and upon checking they too eventually found out that this story was somewhat false. By somewhat I mean that while it could well have happened in theory, there was no actual evidence to support the claim that it actually happened at the present time which is why many news outlets and statements about it were later retracted to admit that it could not be confirmed and therefore should not have circulated as if it were fact.

This isn't to say that Hamas are suddenly innocent of their own atrocities and that the media reports have been blatantly lying to us, but I do think that it (along with some of the coverage I saw while at the gym talking about Israeli causalities if I remember correctly) perfectly demonstrates the inherent bias in our own media to the point that even some well-informed individuals like my relative can be caught by it. I'm at least glad they were willing to check it themselves to be sure they were receiving the correct information, because otherwise they are very much of the same opinion as myself, that being that both sides have committed horrible acts that ultimately stem from decades of Palestinian oppression by the likes of Benjamin Netanyahu which has lead to the suffering of thousands if not millions of both Arabs and Jews, both directly and indirectly in the region and elsewhere.

I don't understand your assertion that the story is 'somewhat false'. I understand why it could be claimed that there's not irrefutable evidence. But there's a large grey area in between 'irrefutable' and 'somewhat false' , yet you seem to be rushing to the other extreme. Let's face it, does it really change much anyway. I'm not sure ' they killed babies' or 'they beheaded babies' really differ that much anyway, it's an absolutely horrendous crime whichever way you look at it.

Not quite sure about the idea that it all stems from repression by the likes of Netanyahu. Hamas gained momentum and exploded(excuse the pun) in size after the Oslo accords were signed. The reaction of Hamas to the peace accords being signed between Rabin and the PLO was to start suicide bombing.

The idea that Hamas and their beliefs are a reaction to Netanyahu is ludicrous. While he was starting the process of talking down peace, they were already out bombing buses in Tel aviv. The argument that Israeli actions can be a very good recruiting sergeant for the likes of Hamas and the pij is of course a very valid argument indeed!! But the central crux and the hardcore of those organisations is about annihilating the Jews and getting rid of them 'from the river to the sea'.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Oct 2023 ==

Was there any 'evidence' for beheadings other than one Israeli journalist reporting being told by a soldier that he'd seen this? I understood that credence was unforthcoming from official or unofficial sources, for the initial few days at least. It goes without saying that the brutal murder of babies is the ultimate obscene war crime, but if the beheading allegation is false one can only speculate the reason for its propagation unless it's to be used as 'justification' for revenge attacks possibly using similar means.

I may have misread you here and appologies if I have. But are you suggesting that Israel are trying to pre prepare an excuse in order to allow the IDF to go in and start beheading kids in Gaza?

 

[nw1]

Bit of a silly whataboutism there Yorkie, not like you normally, I’m referring strictly to this latest 2023 war, it was Hamas that paraglided into a festival of young people who may not even agree with Netanyahu, in fact it’s likely they don’t.

Nobody is denying that this is the case.

You may not think so but lefties on social media say otherwise, I’m not condoning Islamophobia I was just raising a point that while the left (and yes it is very much the left sorry to disappoint you) goes all out to prevent discrimination against Muslims, they seem perfectly fine with Antisemitism.

"The left seem perfectly fine with antisemitism". Really? The left as a whole? Or just some alt-left extremists (along with alt-right extremists)?

The first and perhaps only time I have come across actual antisemitism in person (as opposed to criticism of the actions of the Israeli government) was through a work colleague, who indulged in a drunken antisemitic rant one night at the pub. He was a firm Tory, a Unionist partisan in the Northern Ireland situation, and a Brexiter (who owned a home in France). Funny that. I've never met any left-wing people who are actually antisemitic.

Isn't the most obvious example of an antisemitic leader Orban of Hungary, firmly on the right?

Who made antisemitic tropes against Ed Miliband?

The right constantly put out this lie, that only the left are antisemitic and they never are. I'm sure the right has plenty of anti-semites if you care to look, but no-one ever does.

You can be against Netanyahu and not hate Jews as a whole just like you hate Hamas and sympathise with Palestinians.

This is almost certainly the left's typical actual position.

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

Now spreads to Belgium!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Oct 2023 ==

At least now more people are drawing the inference that all two and a half million Gazans' lives are directly in danger from the IDF, the issue has been catapulted to the top of the agenda - the problem is of course it took this serious of an escalation by them to get it there, and it won't stay there for very long as events unfold.

Every single person in Gaza is now at clear risk of imminent and totally preventable death, no matter whom they are.

And Hamas have it in their hands to prevent further suffering.

 

[Sorcerer]

I don't understand your assertion that the story is 'somewhat false'. I understand why it could be claimed that there's not irrefutable evidence. But there's a large grey area in between 'irrefutable' and 'somewhat false' , yet you seem to be rushing to the other extreme. Let's face it, does it really change much anyway. I'm not sure ' they killed babies' or 'they beheaded babies' really differ that much anyway, it's an absolutely horrendous crime whichever way you look at it.

My use of the term "somewhat false" was meant to suggest that while there was no evidence of beheadings, that absence of evidence was not necessarily evidence of absence, and I do agree that the means of murdering babies doesn't change the brutality of it. My ultimate point was merely to draw attention to the fact that even the most informed minds can still be caught by misinformation and media bias surrounding Israel and Palestine, the misinformation in this particular instance being beheadings that ended up being retracted. It's important to realise this in order to not be fooled or caught by it so you can draw the best conclusions that you can from all the information available, because in truth it is unlikely that we'll get a true unbiased perspective since both the UK and US have been allied and supportive of Israel since it's creation (so much that it was one of Osama Bin Laden's given motives behind 9/11).

Not quite sure about the idea that it all stems from repression by the likes of Netanyahu. Hamas gained momentum and exploded(excuse the pun) in size after the Oslo accords were signed. The reaction of Hamas to the peace accords being signed between Rabin and the PLO was to start suicide bombing.

The idea that Hamas and their beliefs are a reaction to Netanyahu is ludicrous. While he was starting the process of talking down peace, they were already out bombing buses in Tel aviv. The argument that Israeli actions can be a very good recruiting sergeant for the likes of Hamas and the pij is of course a very valid argument indeed!! But the central crux and the hardcore of those organisations is about annihilating the Jews and getting rid of them 'from the river to the sea'.

Hamas, no matter how many evil acts they commit, are merely a symptom of the wider issue that is both the expansion of the Israeli state and the oppression of Palestinians that have accompanied it. Despite signing some of these peace accords such as Oslo, Israel has still not ended the expansion of it's settlements despite resolution attempts, and this in part is down to the likes of Netanyahu who believe the land rightfully belongs to them. While we may not condone the actions of Hamas, and while it would indeed be preferable to see the back of them, can we still reasonably say that they are a surprise that came out of nowhere? Can we really be shocked that an extremist group would rise up in the wake of decades of Palestinian oppression? I don't think so personally.

 

[Starmill]

And Hamas have it in their hands to prevent further suffering.

I don't think anyone is saying otherwise than that. However, as Hamas are just as happy to sacrifice the lives and limbs of the people suffering just as much as Netanyahu and Gantz are, if it furthers their political and strategic objectives, I can't see how that helps.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Oct 2023 ==

"The left seem perfectly fine with antisemitism". Really? The left as a whole? Or just some alt-left extremists (along with alt-right extremists)?

Indeed. I'm probably what you'd describe as from the "soft left" or "centre left", and a strong objector to the lazy anti-semitic assumptions, stereotypes which can very sadly sometimes manifest in British society. However I don't see examples of them in person very frequently at all. Unfortunately a few were quite evident among the Jeremy Corbyn clan, but no more are they relevant to anything.

 

[Bluejays]

Hamas, no matter how many evil acts they commit, are merely a symptom of the wider issue that is both the expansion of the Israeli state and the oppression of Palestinians that have accompanied it. Despite signing some of these peace accords such as Oslo, Israel has still not ended the expansion of it's settlements despite resolution attempts, and this in part is down to the likes of Netanyahu who believe the land rightfully belongs to them. While we may not condone the actions of Hamas, and while it would indeed be preferable to see the back of them, can we still reasonably say that they are a surprise that came out of nowhere? Can we really be shocked that an extremist group would rise up in the wake of decades of Palestinian oppression? I don't think so personally.

I suppose where I disagree strongly is in the idea that Hamas themselves, as an organisation are merely a symptom. Hamas and the ideology they espouse are very much one of the causes. They're not just a group of angry blokes. They're an offshoot of the Muslim brotherhood and they are and always have been extremely well organised. They were set up with very clear goals enshrined in their charter ( the removal of all Jews from Israel being one).
I do agree fully that many Hamas members, in fact quite possibly a majority probably will have been driven to join the group as a result of Israeli actions. Bad behaviour from Israel and the subsequent radicalisation will have been a huge motivator for many to join the group and 'fight back'. So Israeli actions may well have caused /allowed Hamas to reach the scale it has achieved, but the organisation and it's vile beliefs would have existed and been pushing for violence even if Israel had acted perfectly. On top of that is also the fact that it's a bloody good career choice. Iranian funds have made being a Hamas commander or politician quite lucrative, all you have to do in return for your salary is ratchet up the tension.


The other side aswell: are Israelis allowed to have been radicalised by hamas actions? People a lot cleverer than me have written and spoken lots about Israeli society being pushed to the right as a result of the Hamas suicide bombing campaign.

It's a vicious circle. Israeli Atrocities are going to push more Palestinians towards terrorism. Atrocities by Palestinians push Israeli politics further to the right and increase the repression and atrocities from the Israeli side.

There are so many layers of trauma on both sides that I struggle to see how it can be attributed to one side being the 'root cause'.

 

[Simon11]

Another reason for people to join Hamas is that there really isn't much to lose.

Stuck within a small parcel of land with basic living conditions and opportunities.

Very little chance of them enjoy any sort of life we are lucky to have in the UK and travel, forget it there.

Only chance to change anything for them is to fight back. Otherwise they remain stuck with nothing to really live for.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Oct 2023 ==

Just out- Israel losing any moral high ground now.

18:25

BREAKING​

Hundreds killed in Gaza hospital strike - reports​

We are seeing unconfirmed reports from Hamas that Israeli warplanes have struck the Baptist Hospital in central Gaza.
A health spokesman is quoted estimating that hundreds of people were killed.

 

[kristiang85]

Just out- Israel losing any moral high ground now.

Hamas saying 500+ dead, but obviously hard to verify at these early stages.

Hamas also saying it was an Israeli missile. Israelis denying it, saying it is a misfired Hamas rocket.

Whichever way it is proven, there will be huge implications for the conflict. We'd better hope it wasn't Israel, as that will likely be a catalyst for a wider regional conflict.

Also let's hope the numbers are exaggerated, as it would be absolutely horridic if true.

Update: Videos showing 'proof' it was a misguided Hamas missile are said to be old. Still lots of confusion, but Israel itself has issued no categorical denial yet (only Israeli outlets saying the accident theory).

What is certain is that mosques across the West Bank are encouraging people to get out and protest. I can't see how this won't get ugly.

 

[Bluejays]

Awful scenes . Should be safe in a hospital.

 

[1D54]

And hopefully may change the wording somewhat of the meeting tomorrow between Netanyahu and Doddering Joe!

 

[kristiang85]

Protestors attempting to storm the Israeli embassy in Amman now.

 

[Busaholic]

I may have misread you here and appologies if I have. But are you suggesting that Israel are trying to pre prepare an excuse in order to allow the IDF to go in and start beheading kids in Gaza?

Not necessarily beheading, just preparing the world for the possibility (or,more likely, probability) that ghastly acts to rival those of the Hamas raid will be perpetrated on Palestinian children in the coming days. I fervently hope I'm wrong in this.

 

[GS250]

I wouldn't put it past Hammas deliberately targeting the hospital and then blaming Israel. All in an attempt to encourage the wider World to turn against Israel. We all know Hammas don't value life, whether Jew, Muslim or Christian.

However...if this is the actions of Israel... deplorable.

 

[Starmill]

I suppose where I disagree strongly is in the idea that Hamas themselves, as an organisation are merely a symptom. Hamas and the ideology they espouse are very much one of the causes. They're not just a group of angry blokes. They're an offshoot of the Muslim brotherhood and they are and always have been extremely well organised. They were set up with very clear goals enshrined in their charter ( the removal of all Jews from Israel being one).
I do agree fully that many Hamas members, in fact quite possibly a majority probably will have been driven to join the group as a result of Israeli actions. Bad behaviour from Israel and the subsequent radicalisation will have been a huge motivator for many to join the group and 'fight back'. So Israeli actions may well have caused /allowed Hamas to reach the scale it has achieved, but the organisation and it's vile beliefs would have existed and been pushing for violence even if Israel had acted perfectly. On top of that is also the fact that it's a bloody good career choice. Iranian funds have made being a Hamas commander or politician quite lucrative, all you have to do in return for your salary is ratchet up the tension.


The other side aswell: are Israelis allowed to have been radicalised by hamas actions? People a lot cleverer than me have written and spoken lots about Israeli society being pushed to the right as a result of the Hamas suicide bombing campaign.

It's a vicious circle. Israeli Atrocities are going to push more Palestinians towards terrorism. Atrocities by Palestinians push Israeli politics further to the right and increase the repression and atrocities from the Israeli side.

There are so many layers of trauma on both sides that I struggle to see how it can be attributed to one side being the 'root cause'.

I think this is well put.

I'd say that a lot of people probably come to that conclusion that a root cause is quite difficult to isolate in the way you put forward here. However, the reason I might propose that a lot of people support the Palestinian "cause" despite the heinous mass crimes of Hamas, Hizbollah and others, and indeed the reason the same people oppose the retaliation by Israel despite the sincerely-felt threat of terrorism at the hands of Islamist extremists is because, to grossly over-simplify they then see an Israeli state which is richly resourced and strongly allied to the Western cause, and yet no Palestinian state at all, and nearly all of its people trapped in poverty without hope of development or even just reducing reliance on humanitarian aid which is only supposed to be temporary.

Perhaps there's also a good bit of "white saviour" narrative going on in the minds of some white Europeans, given many of today's Israeli citizens are descended from more ethnically Northern European people, generally of paler appearance, compared to the prospective citizens of a Palestinian state who would be made up far more of people descended from ethnically Arab populations and of darker appearance. I know it's uncomfortable to think about that but I think it's better to be open and honest about it. Nobody just "unsees" colour.

 

[Mogster]

.

 

[kristiang85]

It's looking more and more likely it wasn't Israel based on the evidence available. Hopefully the head honchos at Hezbollah etc will recognise this and not escalate on this basis.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I do agree fully that many Hamas members, in fact quite possibly a majority probably will have been driven to join the group as a result of Israeli actions.

Also, don't underestimate the power of social media in an age where lots of people now get their news not from reputable news organisations but from Instagram/Facebook/etc.

A few years ago I had a Turkish Muslim friend: This was at the time when ISIS (later IS) were rampaging through Syria and Iraq, He's fairly intelligent and I would guess not too untypical of moderate Muslims from the area. He quite seriously and completely believed, on the basis of the stories he was seeing on Facebook, that IS was instigated and controlled by Israel, as part of an Israeli plot to discredit Islam. My efforts to convince him otherwise by pointing to BBC reports completely failed because he believed that the BBC was basically Western propaganda and couldn't be trusted.

Now if that's typical of the kind of disinformation that can gain easily traction when Israel is completely innocent of something, I would say it's not hard to imagine what kind of stuff people probably believe today when civilians actually are dying under Israeli bombs, and therefore how easy it is for people to get angry enough to want to join what we know to be an utterly repugnant organisation like Hamas.

 

[Sorcerer]

I suppose where I disagree strongly is in the idea that Hamas themselves, as an organisation are merely a symptom. Hamas and the ideology they espouse are very much one of the causes. They're not just a group of angry blokes. They're an offshoot of the Muslim brotherhood and they are and always have been extremely well organised. They were set up with very clear goals enshrined in their charter ( the removal of all Jews from Israel being one).
I do agree fully that many Hamas members, in fact quite possibly a majority probably will have been driven to join the group as a result of Israeli actions. Bad behaviour from Israel and the subsequent radicalisation will have been a huge motivator for many to join the group and 'fight back'. So Israeli actions may well have caused /allowed Hamas to reach the scale it has achieved, but the organisation and it's vile beliefs would have existed and been pushing for violence even if Israel had acted perfectly. On top of that is also the fact that it's a bloody good career choice. Iranian funds have made being a Hamas commander or politician quite lucrative, all you have to do in return for your salary is ratchet up the tension.


The other side aswell: are Israelis allowed to have been radicalised by hamas actions? People a lot cleverer than me have written and spoken lots about Israeli society being pushed to the right as a result of the Hamas suicide bombing campaign.

It's a vicious circle. Israeli Atrocities are going to push more Palestinians towards terrorism. Atrocities by Palestinians push Israeli politics further to the right and increase the repression and atrocities from the Israeli side.

There are so many layers of trauma on both sides that I struggle to see how it can be attributed to one side being the 'root cause'.

You've raised a fair point about Israelis being radicalised by Hamas' actions in return, and there is a lot more nuance to this conflict than either side makes out. Indeed one could certainly extend blame back to the British and the UN for it's portioning of land that wasn't theirs to give away, especially when 62% of said partitioning was given to the population that was half that of the Palestinians. One could even extend the blame to the ones who exiled the Jewish people in the first place since part of Israel's claim is based on ancestral habitation. At the end of the day though, the present events are what matter, and one of the keys to ending the conflict is addressing the causes and tackling extremism at it's core to achieve peace in the region. It will be a long and difficult process, but nothing that I don't believe we cannot achieve eventually.