2023 Israel - Hamas / Hezbollah war

[nw1]

I ultimately support the actions to get rid of Hamas, who are trying to kill every single Jew around the world, as well as much more if they had the chance.

At any cost?

I want to see Hamas "got rid of", so to speak, but killing innocent civilians is not the way to do it.

Using a more banal example: Would it be an appropriate response to arrest everyone on a train in an effort to find two or three fare-dodgers?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Oct 2023 ==

Unfortunately it's a war, and a war that Hamas started. Wars are awful, but at least Israel tries to limit it's impact on civilians....

That is the problem with people like Netanyahu and Bush. They turn it into a war.

In reality, the actions of Hamas, and 9/11, are outrageous terrorist incidents causing mass loss of life, not a declaration of war. It should be a criminal matter, with relatively peaceful means (including armed police and the secret services) used to bring the perpetrators to justice. Not killing innocent Palestinians, Afghans or Iraqis as mere "collateral".

These hawks just cause more loss of life amongst the people they claim to represent. I have no doubt in my mind that if it hadn't been for the actions of George W. Bush in starting two pointless wars, the 7/7 attacks in London would not have happened. Sorry to be blunt, but hawks need calling out for what they are.

Netanyahu is not winning any friends in his actions, if anything he's re-directing people's sympathies towards the Palestinians, having been towards the Israeli victims a few days ago.

 

[JamesT]

At any cost?

I want to see Hamas "got rid of", so to speak, but killing innocent civilians is not the way to do it.

Using a more banal example: Would it be an appropriate response to arrest everyone on a train in an effort to find two or three fare-dodgers?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Oct 2023 ==


That is the problem with people like Netanyahu and Bush. They turn it into a war.

In reality, the actions of Hamas, and 9/11, are outrageous terrorist incidents causing mass loss of life. It should be a criminal matter, with peaceful means used to bring the perpetrators to justice. Not killing innocent Palestinians, Afghans or Iraqis as mere "collateral".

How does one ‘peacefully’ stop the rockets?
Who is going to arrest Hamas and try them? How would they do it without an army at their back?

Israel has tried peaceful means in the past, for example they withdrew their occupation of Gaza in 2005. The response was Hamas took control and started firing rockets at Israeli civilians.

It’s unsurprising that the military solution espoused by Netanyahu looks more attractive to Israel’s voters.

 

[nw1]

How does one ‘peacefully’ stop the rockets?
Who is going to arrest Hamas and try them? How would they do it without an army at their back?

Israel has tried peaceful means in the past, for example they withdrew their occupation of Gaza in 2005. The response was Hamas took control and started firing rockets at Israeli civilians.

It’s unsurprising that the military solution espoused by Netanyahu looks more attractive to Israel’s voters.

I don't know what strategy is best but I do know that returning violence with violence is a) morally very questionable, and b) will lead to more terrorist murders of Israeli people and, of relevance for us, increases the risk of terrorist incidents against the West. Thus, there must be a better and less violent solution.

Netanyahu's actions are making Israel, the Middle East, and the world less stable.

 

[yorkie]

How does one ‘peacefully’ stop the rockets?
Who is going to arrest Hamas and try them? How would they do it without an army at their back?

Israel has tried peaceful means in the past, for example they withdrew their occupation of Gaza in 2005. The response was Hamas took control and started firing rockets at Israeli civilians.

It’s unsurprising that the military solution espoused by Netanyahu looks more attractive to Israel’s voters.

Are you condoning the displacement of over a million people, with nowhere suitable to go?
Are you condoning cutting essential supplies including water and electricity to millions of people?
Are you condoning many deaths of Palestinian civilians?
Are you condoning breaches of international law?

I don't know what strategy is best but I do know that returning violence with violence is a) morally questionable, and b) will lead to more terrorist murders of Israeli people and, or relevance for us, increases the risk of terrorist incidents against the West.

Netanyahu's actions are making Israel, the Middle East, and the world less stable.

Very true

 

[JamesT]

Are you condoning the displacement of over a million people, with nowhere suitable to go?
Are you condoning cutting essential supplies including water and electricity to millions of people?
Are you condoning many deaths of Palestinian civilians?
Are you condoning breaches of international law?

Are you capable of responding with anything except whataboutery?

 

[yorkie]

Are you capable of responding with anything except whataboutery?

Nonsense; these atrocities is actually happening and are at the heart of the matter.

Do you deny it is happening or are you wanting to avoid the questions?

Can't you give a straight answer?

Edit: what are your thoughts on this; will you condemn these actions by the state of Israel...?

Strike on civilian convoy fleeing Gaza: What we know from verified video

Women and children were killed in Friday's strike on vehicles that were heading away from northern Gaza.

www.bbc.co.uk

The longest video we have verified is too graphic for us to show. It's a scene of total carnage. Men are seen running towards a truck yelling prayers and laments into the smoke-filled air. Sirens and car alarms howl throughout.
As the camera moves closer to the truck, the extent of the devastation becomes clear. Bodies, twisted and mangled, are scattered everywhere.
Later, the broken body of a small child - a boy, dressed in shorts and a T-shirt - is seen lying on the truck, his head twisted awkwardly towards the camera.
We counted at least 12 dead bodies among the wreckage. They are mostly women and children - some of whom appear to be as young as two to five years old.

Do you really believe that such retaliatory strikes are justified?

At this point, if you hold your hands up and admit you got it wrong, I would totally respect that...

 

[Bluejays]

While I think I'm a lot more supportive of what Israel is doing than most on here, I'm wondering what there is left for them to bomb now. I'd imagine the legitimate and proportionate targets were probably exhausted days ago. You can't inflict these levels of suffering on a civilian population full stop.

Away from Gaza, I'm worried that the settlers in the west bank are being given a free reign. There are some disgracefully vile elements amongst them, who have the same kind of worldview as the likes of Hamas. And lots of reports coming out that groups of settlers are Essentially hunting Palestinians. While Benji has always courted them and their leaders for votes, I don't think he has any great understanding of or respect for them. The likes of the US and Uk should be conditioning our broad support of Israel on him sorting these guys out and dropping them politically. He'd drop them like a stone if he thought there was a benefit. Seems like an easy win that is being missed by the west

 

[Mogster]

While I think I'm a lot more supportive of what Israel is doing than most on here, I'm wondering what there is left for them to bomb now. I'd imagine the legitimate and proportionate targets were probably exhausted days ago. You can't inflict these levels of suffering on a civilian population full stop.

Away from Gaza, I'm worried that the settlers in the west bank are being given a free reign. There are some disgracefully vile elements amongst them, who have the same kind of worldview as the likes of Hamas. And lots of reports coming out that groups of settlers are Essentially hunting Palestinians. While Benji has always courted them and their leaders for votes, I don't think he has any great understanding of or respect for them. The likes of the US and Uk should be conditioning our broad support of Israel on him sorting these guys out and dropping them politically. He'd drop them like a stone if he thought there was a benefit. Seems like an easy win that is being missed by the west

That particular area of the West Bank sounds very much like the Wild West. The reported incidents have the air of a hillbilly feud.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

There could be some sort of power-sharing so that jews are guaranteed places in the parliament, and joint heads of government similar to Northern Ireland.

Considering the way the Northern Ireland Government has been paralyzed for over a year, and remains paralyzed with no reasonable foreseeable prospect of normal business resuming, I'm not sure I'd cite that as a good example of power-sharing!

The concept of a Jewish state hasn't been a huge success -

By what standards? Which countries are you comparing it with? By the standards of the Middle East, Israel is by far and away the most democratic and has been for many decades. It's also the country in that region that has provided by far the best standard of living for the majority of its inhabitants (with the possible exception of the Gulf states that had the advantage of oil). And it's done all this despite very difficult circumstances: Neighbours constantly seeking to make war/destroy it for much of its existence. I'd say that's pretty successful!

(Note that none of that is to deny that the way Israel has treated Palestinians in the occupied territories has for a long time been appalling).

 

[yorkie]

....And it's done all this despite very difficult circumstances: Neighbours constantly seeking to make war/destroy it for much of its existence....

Not to mention engaging in illegal occupations and oppressing millions of people; but yeah apart from all that...

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I would go to one of the safe zones marked out by the IDF and admittedly have to trust the enemy to keep me alive.

I'm still waiting for either clarification or a retraction of this. As I've said above, if you are now prepared to admit you were wrong, I'd have huge respect for that.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67108364

Philippe Lazzarini works for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees. He says his agency is no longer able to provide humanitarian assistance to Gaza.

“There is not one drop of water, not one grain of wheat, not a litre of fuel, that has been allowed into the Gaza Strip for the last eight days,” he says.

The number of people seeking shelter in the organisation’s schools and facilities in the south is overwhelming, 14 members of his organisation have been killed, and Gaza is running out of body bags.

“Every hour we receive more and more desperate calls for help from people across the strip.

“Last week’s attack on Israel was horrendous. The attack and the taking of hostages are a flagrant violation of international humanitarian law. But the answer to killing civilians cannot be to kill more civilians.

“The siege in Gaza, the way it is imposed, is nothing else than collective punishment,” he says.

In a statement on social media, the WHO in occupied Palestinian territory adds that 21 hospitals in Gaza have been given an order to evacuate by the Israel military.

The global health body also notes that the "forced evacuation" of hospitals may amount to a violation of international humanitarian law".

I also see Israel Cabinet minister Gideon Sa’ar is wanting to grab yet more Palestinian land:

He also said that Gaza must end up smaller - with Israel taking control of a belt of land in the east and north of the strip. This would be a "security zone" and anyone who entered it would be "intercepted" by the military.

This will play into the worst fears of Palestinians as it evokes for them the core issue - the loss of their lands in the conflicts surrounding Israel’s creation 75 years ago.

Also does anyone here actually support the actions by Israel which are described below? (I certainly hope not!)

Ramez Barhoum is 15 years old. He is currently taking shelter at a UN school in Rafah in southern Gaza.

“There was a bombing next to our house. Innocent people were killed, a whole family next to our house, parents with their kids. We were afraid,” he told the BBC.

He said that the house next to his uncle’s was also bombed. It was then that he fled to the school.

“I saw horrible scenes. A kid not even a year old - his two legs were cut off, his head, he was blown to pieces.

"I can barely stand it. Look around at these kids, ask them if they want to live or not," he said.

“We want to live. Our dream is to live, that’s all we want”.

(all the above quotes are from the BBC's live news feed)

 

[renegademaster]

Considering the way the Northern Ireland Government has been paralyzed for over a year, and remains paralyzed with no reasonable foreseeable prospect of normal business resuming, I'm not sure I'd cite that as a good example of power-sharing!



By what standards? Which countries are you comparing it with? By the standards of the Middle East, Israel is by far and away the most democratic and has been for many decades. It's also the country in that region that has provided by far the best standard of living for the majority of its inhabitants (with the possible exception of the Gulf states that had the advantage of oil). And it's done all this despite very difficult circumstances: Neighbours constantly seeking to make war/destroy it for much of its existence. I'd say that's pretty successful!

(Note that none of that is to deny that the way Israel has treated Palestinians in the occupied territories has for a long time been appalling).

From a Jewish perspective, it's probably the best they've had politically since old testament times.

 

[brad465]

If they really want to settle this whole saga, all Western Nations should between them offer to take in the entire population of Gaza as refugees, stating as a condition that they all return as soon as a suitable peace settlement for the region has been formally agreed. There would be so much pressure applied from all those who know how unsustainable a refugee influx of that scale is that Governments would be forced to resolve it quickly.

 

[renegademaster]

all return as soon as a suitable peace settlement for the region has been formally agreed

Israel, for somewhat understandable reasons , would just never agree to anything given that arrangement

 

[Starmill]

The concept of a Jewish state hasn't been a huge success - is it time to try something different? A secular state with freedom of religion guaranteed, together with a leadership formed from the two ethnic groups - Jews and Arabs - working together for the good of the whole population.

That may well be your and my preference, absolutely.

However, I'm merely an external observer, and they would see it as trying to fundamentally remove their right to exist. I wouldn't agree with that, but that's how it would be widely interpreted among Israelis.

Also they'd likely challenge your notion of there not having been much success, as to many of them albeit it's not great being threatened on all sides, it's still going much better than it was pre-1948. Of course in reality that's more down to resources and allies rather than statehood.

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On the model of India Possibly? At one time the 3 most powerful positions were held by a Hindu, a Muslim and a Sikh iirc.

Hindu nationalism is certainly not giving the Muslim citizens of India a great time at the moment it has to be said.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2023 ==

If they really want to settle this whole saga, all Western Nations should between them offer to take in the entire population of Gaza as refugees, stating as a condition that they all return as soon as a suitable peace settlement for the region has been formally agreed. There would be so much pressure applied from all those who know how unsustainable a refugee influx of that scale is that Governments would be forced to resolve it quickly.

While the idea of securing appropriate homes for the ordinary Gazans who have suffered for so long and through so much, despite having done nothing whatsoever wrong, makes good sense, I think in practice moving over two million people across the world would be quite the undertaking. It'd also then be incredibly unfair to force them to go back, possibly years later. In addition, it would create an enormous sense of unfairness against others who are in similar need. Around double the number of Gazans are the Syrians who've successfully fled another murderous regime, only to be completely abandoned in Turkey, with no resources, little but resentment from the Turkish government, no pathway to anything better, and most certainly no home to ever return to.

 

[Carlisle]

Considering the way the Northern Ireland Government has been paralyzed for over a year, and remains paralyzed with no reasonable foreseeable prospect of normal business resuming, I'm not sure I'd cite that as a good example of power-sharing!

I’d guess the main difficulty in comparing Israel’s problems with Ireland is that post independence Irish terrorism wasn’t as far as I’m aware generally state sponsored unlike much of that seen against Israel since 1948.

 

[1D54]

Sky News often talk live to a Doctor Hassan from Gaza. It is tragic listening to the plight of the people, a few minutes ago they had him on and within 30 seconds they apologised to him and said they had 'run out of time' I really hope it had nothing to do with the fact he was talking about the death of 14 doctors and 16 nurses due to the bombing from the Israelis

 

[NorthKent1989]

Simply been reading this thread until now.

Not supporting Netanyahu, but in this instance war is war, the only way to remove Hamas is through war, they don’t want peace, Israel has the right to defend itself, and on this occasion, it is Hamas who slaughtered innocent Jews at a festival, raping women, killing babies.

People are forgetting how this latest war started and it’s disappointing to say the least that, we’re supposed to feel any pity for terrorists.

Imagine it’s 1940, Britain has just been bombed so Churchill bombs Germany back aggressively to get rid of the Nazis who insist on bombing us, people dying is unfortunate, but Hamas started this mess, they don’t want peace, anymore than Netanyahu, doing what they did only gave him the excuse and ammunition.

Abhorrent that anti semitism has risen, that ordinary Jews in London are being targeted, the Left are condoning this, imagine if the Right did this to Muslims in London? There would be a massive outcry, imagine if the right did this to BLM? An organisation that doesn’t care about black lives, and itself is a racist organisation.

This conflict has exposed people’s bigotry from an unexpected place.

 

[nw1]

Simply been reading this thread until now.

Not supporting Netanyahu, but in this instance war is war, the only way to remove Hamas is through war, they don’t want peace, Israel has the right to defend itself, and on this occasion, it is Hamas who slaughtered innocent Jews at a festival, raping women, killing babies.

People are forgetting how this latest war started and it’s disappointing to say the least that, we’re supposed to feel any pity for terrorists.

Nobody is showing pity for terrorists (see my own posts on the matter, above, as an example, in which I am very condemnatory of Hamas and those who support them). Only pity for the Palestinian civilians who have died or been injured as a result of Netanyahu's action and the Israeli citizens who were the victims of the terrorist attacks.

 

[66701GBRF]

Nonsense; these atrocities is actually happening and are at the heart of the matter.

Do you deny it is happening or are you wanting to avoid the questions?

Can't you give a straight answer?

Edit: what are your thoughts on this; will you condemn these actions by the state of Israel...?

Strike on civilian convoy fleeing Gaza: What we know from verified video

Women and children were killed in Friday's strike on vehicles that were heading away from northern Gaza.

www.bbc.co.uk

Do you really believe that such retaliatory strikes are justified?

At this point, if you hold your hands up and admit you got it wrong, I would totally respect that...

There is little evidence that was a strike by Israel. It could equally have been HAMAS trying to deflect. The very article you quoted states weapons experts they talked too found it hard to tell what actually caused it.

 

[yorkie]

There is little evidence that was a strike by Israel. It could equally have been HAMAS trying to deflect.

So, you are also saying there is little evidence the strike was by Hamas?

The very article you quoted states weapons experts they talked too found it hard to tell what actually caused it.

It does now, it didn't then. But Israel is accused of multiple counts of attacks; even if this particular one cannot be absolutely verified as being by Israel, there is no dount that Israel is guilty of muiltiple attacks which have caused the death of many civilians, their homes and infrastructure. Do you have any evidence that Palestinians were striking at Palestinians?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2023 ==

Simply been reading this thread until now.

Not supporting Netanyahu, but in this instance war is war, the only way to remove Hamas is through war, they don’t want peace, Israel has the right to defend itself, and on this occasion, it is Hamas who slaughtered innocent Jews at a festival, raping women, killing babies.

The state of Isreal has been killing Palestinian children on a regular basis for many years.

People are forgetting how this latest war started...

Yes, it seems you have.

and it’s disappointing to say the least that, we’re supposed to feel any pity for terrorists.

Says who?

Imagine it’s 1940, Britain has just been bombed so Churchill bombs Germany back aggressively to get rid of the Nazis who insist on bombing us, people dying is unfortunate, but Hamas started this mess, they don’t want peace, anymore than Netanyahu, doing what they did only gave him the excuse and ammunition.

If we were occupied by Nazi Germany, we'd sure as hell be fighting back. Some people would no doubt be acting in a manner considered by the Nazis as terrorists. I wouldn't be condoning such actions, but it would be forseeable.

Abhorrent that anti semitism has risen, that ordinary Jews in London are being targeted,

Also Muslims are, and have been, targeted for years.

the Left are condoning this

Really? I don't think so.

, imagine if the Right did this to Muslims in London?

No need to "imagine".

There would be a massive outcry, imagine if the right did this to BLM? An organisation that doesn’t care about black lives, and itself is a racist organisation.

I don't think discussion of BLM is helpful here; in any case the fact that one particular 'organisation' acts innappropriately does not mean the cause they (purportedly) stand for isn't a valid one.

This conflict has exposed people’s bigotry from an unexpected place.

It certainly has, and sadly there is very much a case of double standards going on, where Israeli lives appear to be valued higher than Palestinians. But that's nothing new.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2023 ==

Nobody is showing pity for terrorists (see my own posts on the matter, above, as an example, in which I am very condemnatory of Hamas and those who support them). Only pity for the Palestinian civilians who have died or been injured as a result of Netanyahu's action and the Israeli citizens who were the victims of the terrorist attacks.

Indeed; that's just an argument but forward by people who are perhaps a bit too far to the right. It's completely bogus.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2023 ==

Sky News often talk live to a Doctor Hassan from Gaza. It is tragic listening to the plight of the people, a few minutes ago they had him on and within 30 seconds they apologised to him and said they had 'run out of time' I really hope it had nothing to do with the fact he was talking about the death of 14 doctors and 16 nurses due to the bombing from the Israelis

For sure if that many Israeli doctors and nurses died, it would be deemed much bigger news (because it would be much less expected); deaths on the Palestinian side have always been an order of magnitude higher.

 

[NorthKent1989]

So, you are also saying there is little evidence the strike was by Hamas?

It does now, it didn't then. But Israel is accused of multiple counts of attacks; even if this particular one cannot be absolutely verified as being by Israel, there is no dount that Israel is guilty of muiltiple attacks which have caused the death of many civilians, their homes and infrastructure. Do you have any evidence that Palestinians were striking at Palestinians?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2023 ==


The state of Isreal has been killing Palestinian children on a regular basis for many years.

Yes, it seems you have.

Says who?

If we were occupied by Nazi Germany, we'd sure as hell be fighting back. Some people would no doubt be acting in a manner considered by the Nazis as terrorists. I wouldn't be condoning such actions, but it would be forseeable.

Also Muslims are, and have been, targeted for years.

Really? I don't think so.

No need to "imagine".

I don't think discussion of BLM is helpful here; in any case the fact that one particular 'organisation' acts innappropriately does not mean the cause they (purportedly) stand for isn't a valid one.

It certainly has, and sadly there is very much a case of double standards going on, where Israeli lives appear to be valued higher than Palestinians. But that's nothing new.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2023 ==


Indeed; that's just an argument but forward by people who are perhaps a bit too far to the right. It's completely bogus.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2023 ==


For sure if that many Israeli doctors and nurses died, it would be deemed much bigger news (because it would be much less expected); deaths on the Palestinian side have always been an order of magnitude higher.

Bit of a silly whataboutism there Yorkie, not like you normally, I’m referring strictly to this latest 2023 war, it was Hamas that paraglided into a festival of young people who may not even agree with Netanyahu, in fact it’s likely they don’t.

You may not think so but lefties on social media say otherwise, I’m not condoning Islamophobia I was just raising a point that while the left (and yes it is very much the left sorry to disappoint you) goes all out to prevent discrimination against Muslims, they seem perfectly fine with Antisemitism.

You can be against Netanyahu and not hate Jews as a whole just like you hate Hamas and sympathise with Palestinians.

I thought I should reiterate that before anyone accuses me of being anti-Palestine

I brought up BLM as because they’re a hypocritical group that has condoned discrimination against Jews, it might not be helpful to you but one man’s meat is another man’s poison.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2023 ==

The state of Isreal has been killing Palestinian children on a regular basis for many years.

Again did I condone this? I’m talking strictly about this war, now in 2023 that Hamas attacked Israel first.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2023 ==

No need to "imagine".

My point is the sheer bigotry from those who preach tolerance is quite staggering.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

Sky News often talk live to a Doctor Hassan from Gaza. It is tragic listening to the plight of the people, a few minutes ago they had him on and within 30 seconds they apologised to him and said they had 'run out of time' I really hope it had nothing to do with the fact he was talking about the death of 14 doctors and 16 nurses due to the bombing from the Israelis

For sure if that many Israeli doctors and nurses died, it would be deemed much bigger news (because it would be much less expected); deaths on the Palestinian side have always been an order of magnitude higher.

100% agree. The media coverage on Ukraine since Russia attacked has been huge and highly critical of Russia. Approximately 540 children were killed in 18 months of war.
In the first week alone in this Israel/Palestine war, 724 Palestinian children have been killed.

This isn’t an issue with Jews so 100% Jews should not be attacked and that’s sad to hear. Indeed, there are some Jews and Rabbis that have been in support of Palestine both now and before the latest incident has happened.

 

[yorkie]

Bit of a silly whataboutism there Yorkie, not like you normally, I’m referring strictly to this latest 2023 war, it was Hamas that paraglided into a festival of young people who may not even agree with Netanyahu, in fact it’s likely they don’t.

Oh come on; the idea that this just randomly started out of nothing (or whatever you are suggesting) is utterly absurd and nonsensical; it's a huge misrepresentation and based on a lack of understanding on your part.

You may not think so but lefties on social media say otherwise

Feel free to provide links and quotes, but the far left / loony left do not speak for the moderate left any more than the far right speak for the moderate right.

I’m not condoning Islamophobia I was just raising a point that while the left (and yes it is very much the left sorry to disappoint you) goes all out to prevent discrimination against Muslims, they seem perfectly fine with Antisemitism.

Who are these people of which you speak? Anyone who is happy with antisemitism is not on the left and if they claim to be, then they are very much mistaken.

You can be against Netanyahu and not hate Jews as a whole just like you hate Hamas and sympathise with Palestinians.

You clearly didn't read my earlier posts, did you?

I thought I should reiterate that before anyone accuses me of being anti-Palestine

If you are condoning the retaliatory strikes by the state of Israel, then you shouldn't be surprised if people consider you to be unsupportive of the people of Palestine.

I brought up BLM as because they’re a hypocritical group that has condoned discrimination against Jews, it might not be helpful to you but one man’s meat is another man’s poison.

Helpful to me? I don't understand what you mean by that. But if you'd been reading the thread you would have seen that I am not supportive of the organisation of that name. Not that it's got anything to do with the matter at hand.

Again did I condone this?

You appear to be ignoring it, if nothing else.

I’m talking strictly about this war, now in 2023 that Hamas attacked Israel first.

This all came out of the blue, did it?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2023 ==

100% agree. The media coverage on Ukraine since Russia attacked has been huge and highly critical of Russia. Approximately 540 children were killed in 18 months of war.
In the first week alone in this Israel/Palestine war, 724 Palestinian children have been killed.

This isn’t an issue with Jews so 100% Jews should not be attacked and that’s sad to hear.

Well said.

Indeed, there are some Jews and Rabbis that have been in support of Palestine both now and before the latest incident has happened.

Absolutely; I provided a link and quote earlier, illustrating this fact (and I'm glad you've reiterated it too).

As others have said above, the state of Israel is run by a far-right Government but there are plenty of good people in Israel who do not support these actions.

People who attempt to blame the entire population of Israel and/or all Jewish people are simpletons and racists; if @NorthKent1989 has seen any such people claim to be on the "left" then I would say: don't believe a lunatic.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2023 ==

My point is the sheer bigotry from those who preach tolerance is quite staggering.

You will find people like that on all 'sides'.

But sensible people can see that a state cannot go fighting terrorism with retaliatory strikes that have a disproportionate and heavy toll on civilians. This in no way condones the atrocities committed by terrorists.

Edit: I found an interesting article; I don't know how authoritative this is, from before the most recent hostilities:

Netanyahu set to face divided, pained US Jewish community leaders in Friday meeting

PM will meet people who have protested his judicial overhaul, and others who support it and are planning to rally on his behalf; some critics hope for an opportunity for dialogue

www.timesofisrael.com

The first time Benjamin Netanyahu meets with American Jewish leaders in the United States this year, he will be sitting in a room with at least two people who have demonstrated outside his hotel.

One of them will have attended a rally staged to welcome the prime minister. The other will have protested him.

The meeting on Friday in New York City, scheduled to follow Netanyahu’s address to the United Nations General Assembly, will reflect the internal tensions of an American Jewish community riven by his efforts to limit the Israeli judiciary and by other policies of his government, which includes far-right partners in senior roles....

...Off the invite list are left-leaning groups that have been more vociferously critical of Netanyahu’s policies toward the Palestinians...

This really shouldn't be that much of a surprise to anyone.

 

[Starmill]

It's impossible to understand the mindset of dropping over 6,000 bombs on a population of two and a half million people you have chosen to lock up, many against their will, in just seven days, forcing them to live in a tinier and tinier space with nearly every building now sustaining some bomb damage, with people surrounded by rubble, dead bodies, and their own waste, without a functional healtcare service owing to killed medics and no medical supplies, or any new food and clean water, and then to claim it's somehow proportionate force. By definition this use of force is beyond all possible proportion. It's beyond a doubt that it's intended to punish millions of civilians collectively for the actions of just a few thousand extremists. The orders for this siege and air strikes are a heinous crime against humanity and a crime of war, it is deliberately and actively pushing nearly two and a half million people, nearly all of whom have never done anything wrong, into depravity, along with the heedless killing outright of thousands more. I don't see how anyone can deny that at this point.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

Again did I condone this? I’m talking strictly about this war, now in 2023 that Hamas attacked Israel first.

Issue IMO is that this tragedy that Israel has faced has been the reality for Palestinians for decades. This is not a new war that has just started so I think it’s misleading for people to suggest that. You may not be condoning what Israel have been doing but you’ve* sat silently for years. Now it’s the other way around, you’re very vocal and expect every Pro Palestinian to condemn Hamas actions and if they don’t do so, then they are apparently in support of them. By all means, support Israel and I have no problem with that. But it’s people taking the moral high ground which I think is disgusting when you have no idea how Israel have been persecuting the Palestinians for decades. Last year, 170 Palestinians were killed including 30 children. These statistics are from Amnesty:

50 YEARS OF SETTLEMENTS​

600,000+
Jewish Israeli settlers living on occupied Palestinian land

100,000+
Hectares of land appropriated by Israel from Palestinians since 1967

50,000
Homes and structures demolished by Israel in the OPT over the past 50 years

4.9+ MILLION
Palestinians facing daily restrictions on their movement

*I’m speaking generally not necessarily you

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2023 ==

Oh come on; the idea that this just randomly started out of nothing (or whatever you are suggesting) is utterly absurd and nonsensical; it's a huge misrepresentation and based on a lack of understanding on your part.

Feel free to provide links and quotes, but the far left / loony left do not speak for the moderate left any more than the far right speak for the moderate right.

Who are these people of which you speak? Anyone who is happy with antisemitism is not on the left and if they claim to be, then they are very much mistaken.

You clearly didn't read my earlier posts, did you?

If you are condoning the retaliatory strikes by the state of Israel, then you shouldn't be surprised if people consider you to be unsupportive of the people of Palestine.

Helpful to me? I don't understand what you mean by that. But if you'd been reading the thread you would have seen that I am not supportive of the organisation of that name. Not that it's got anything to do with the matter at hand.

You appear to be ignoring it, if nothing else.

This all came out of the blue, did it?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2023 ==


Well said.

Absolutely; I provided a link and quote earlier, illustrating this fact (and I'm glad you've reiterated it too).

As others have said above, the state of Israel is run by a far-right Government but there are plenty of good people in Israel who do not support these actions.

People who attempt to blame the entire population of Israel and/or all Jewish people are simpletons and racists; if @NorthKent1989 has seen any such people claim to be on the "left" then I would say: don't believe a lunatic.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2023 ==


You will find people like that on all 'sides'.

But sensible people can see that a state cannot go fighting terrorism with retaliatory strikes that have a disproportionate and heavy toll on civilians. This in no way condones the atrocities committed by terrorists.

Thanks Yorkie for all your contributions to this thread as well as others of course. I’ve been trying very hard not to post or say anything because some of the hypocrisy on here is frustrating.

 

[yorkie]

... Last year, 170 Palestinians were killed including 30 children. ...

I suspect @NorthKent1989 and others (no disrespect) are unaware of these figures because it's deemed unnewsworthy if Palestinian children die, so you have to really go out of your way to actually find out this has been happening. It is understadable that many people have no idea of the scale of repression and suffering.

I do hope people who have been hoodwinked and mislead by the biased media reporting (and I am sure @NorthKent1989 is aware of that issue!) can be enlightened and realise that perhaps a re-evaluation is necessary. As I've said above, I have huge respect for people who, when presented with additional information, reconsider and change their mind on any given subject. This is a sign of strength, not weakness.

Edit: @Starmill's post above eloquently expresses concerns and thoughts that I share, in a way that is better worded than what I can come up with.

Further edit: I wonder how many people, who support the actions which are creating/exacerbating a refugee crisis, have actually met any refugee children? I have, from places such as Ukraine, Syria etc., and I consider myself fortunate to have been in a position to give them opportunities that they could perhaps otherwise not have imagined.

 

[Starmill]

I suspect @NorthKent1989 and others (no disrespect) are unaware of these figures because it's deemed unnewsworthy if Palestinian children die, so you have to really go out of your way to actually find out this has been happening.

I do hope people who have been hoodwinked and mislead by the biased media reporting (and I am sure @NorthKent1989 is aware of that issue!) can be enlightened and realise that perhaps a re-evaluation is necessary. As I've said above, I have huge respect for people who, when presented with additional information, reconsider and change their mind on any given subject. This is a sign of strength, not weakness.

At least now more people are drawing the inference that all two and a half million Gazans' lives are directly in danger from the IDF, the issue has been catapulted to the top of the agenda - the problem is of course it took this serious of an escalation by them to get it there, and it won't stay there for very long as events unfold.

Every single person in Gaza is now at clear risk of imminent and totally preventable death, no matter whom they are.

 

[NorthKent1989]

@yorkie I am more than aware of biased news reports, I’ve been aware of it for many years, the Covid debacle was the straw that broke the camels back on that one!

 

[yorkie]

@yorkie I am more than aware of biased news reports, I’ve been aware of it for many years, the Covid debacle was the straw that broke the camels back on that one!

Indeed; my concern here is that you have read some things that have resulted in you reaching a conclusion, but if you had read other things, you might potentially have come to a different conclusion. I truly hope you can see that.

 

[Sorcerer]

I do hope people who have been hoodwinked and mislead by the biased media reporting (and I am sure @NorthKent1989 is aware of that issue!) can be enlightened and realise that perhaps a re-evaluation is necessary. As I've said above, I have huge respect for people who, when presented with additional information, reconsider and change their mind on any given subject. This is a sign of strength, not weakness.

Recently I had a small discussion with a well-informed relative of mine who similarly condemned the actions of Hamas but also mentioned the story relating to babies being beheaded. I brought up with them the idea that this claim was dubious (I myself wasn't sure at the time whether or not it was true but didn't know enough to say that it was false) and upon checking they too eventually found out that this story was somewhat false. By somewhat I mean that while it could well have happened in theory, there was no actual evidence to support the claim that it actually happened at the present time which is why many news outlets and statements about it were later retracted to admit that it could not be confirmed and therefore should not have circulated as if it were fact.

This isn't to say that Hamas are suddenly innocent of their own atrocities and that the media reports have been blatantly lying to us, but I do think that it (along with some of the coverage I saw while at the gym talking about Israeli causalities if I remember correctly) perfectly demonstrates the inherent bias in our own media to the point that even some well-informed individuals like my relative can be caught by it. I'm at least glad they were willing to check it themselves to be sure they were receiving the correct information, because otherwise they are very much of the same opinion as myself, that being that both sides have committed horrible acts that ultimately stem from decades of Palestinian oppression by the likes of Benjamin Netanyahu which has lead to the suffering of thousands if not millions of both Arabs and Jews, both directly and indirectly in the region and elsewhere.