The above was where I came to my judgement that you don't like them. I didn't say you hated them but "many... brainwashed to the point of evil" is a strong indicator you're at least unhappy with a large proportion of them. Perhaps you were specifically getting at the non-Gazan Palestinians having a different take? But I think that goes without saying anyway given lesser support for Hamas outside Gaza.
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2023 Israel - Hamas / Hezbollah war
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Just to provide some evidence.
AP News, 2021.
France24, 10 October 2023.
Palestine Centre for Policy and Social Research, 13 September 2023.
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I accept that these are horrendous comments and difficult to read. I don't wish to take away from the hurt these views hold for people of Israeli citizenship and Jewish faith so it's difficult for me to clarify what I meant further without risking being interpreted in that manner. Instead of doing that I'll just draw more emphasis on the final quote you provided which gets at a small but measurable rise in support of a two-state solution. Admittedly this goal is further away today than it has been for many years.
renegademaster
Established Member
Israel, in this flare up, has currently has killed less including combatants than Hamas has killed civilians
That is true on the current count of bodies yes. Unfortunately I don't think any outcome is possible that doesn't see it turned dramatically the other way given the block on energy, food and water provision, and the building-destruction policy.
I feel this is important enough to post here.
Hamas has been telling Palestinian Gazans NOT to evacuate areas after being warned by the IDF.
I firmly believe that the goal of Hamas in this conflict is to create a wave of anti-Semitic feeling, disguised as "anti-Zionism" through the cold-blooded murder of the Gazan Palestinians. The leadership, safely tucked away in Qatar, know that they will not face any of the backlash but that many people in the west will turn against Israel because they see civilian casualties caused by the bombings of human shields. Their end goal, as stated in the Hamas charter, is to obliterate the state of Israel and form a global Islamic State, exterminating Jews from the world. How anyone can see this and still support or defend the acts of Hamas is completely beyond my comprehension.
Hamas has been telling Palestinian Gazans NOT to evacuate areas after being warned by the IDF.
I firmly believe that the goal of Hamas in this conflict is to create a wave of anti-Semitic feeling, disguised as "anti-Zionism" through the cold-blooded murder of the Gazan Palestinians. The leadership, safely tucked away in Qatar, know that they will not face any of the backlash but that many people in the west will turn against Israel because they see civilian casualties caused by the bombings of human shields. Their end goal, as stated in the Hamas charter, is to obliterate the state of Israel and form a global Islamic State, exterminating Jews from the world. How anyone can see this and still support or defend the acts of Hamas is completely beyond my comprehension.
It is quite remarkable how many of my previously pro-Israel friends have now turned on them for their actions. The state of Israel have created a situation in Gaza and the West Bank where their oppression of the Palestinians creates the sort of monsters who attacked Israeli citizens and provide conditions that prevent terrorists from being adequately dealt with.
Has anyone been watching much of the al Jazeera coverage? Not sure if I've just caught a funny half hour, but their angle seems to have suddenly become a lot more neutral.
From what was essentially Hamas propaganda over the weekend to much more of a balanced perspective.
Not sure if they've had a tap from above as the qatari government maybe shift stance, or if it stems from what their reporters on the ground in Israel have had to view at some of the massacre sites.
From what was essentially Hamas propaganda over the weekend to much more of a balanced perspective.
Not sure if they've had a tap from above as the qatari government maybe shift stance, or if it stems from what their reporters on the ground in Israel have had to view at some of the massacre sites.
brad465
Veteran Member
Don't worry everybody, the Met Police are going to sort Hamas out*:
*It seems to be in relation to counter-terrorism over British deaths in Israel, but it's not been well worded for sure.
*It seems to be in relation to counter-terrorism over British deaths in Israel, but it's not been well worded for sure.
It's a really good question because the Al Jazeera international channels always seemed to have quite a distinct difference in tone to the Arabic language ones. I wonder how that now compares.
Yeah, would definitely be interesting to see if there's a difference between content in the Arabic and English versions. One thing that I've definitely noticed in some of their documentaries(which can be very good) is that the word 'yahud' seems to get uttered quite a lot, but never seems to make it to the English subtitles.
Pure speculation on my part, but I wondered if the possibility of Hezbollah joining the fight has spooked the likes of Qatar and made them think de escalation may be a good thing. A conflict that spread would be very bad for business after all.
You do wonder how much of the message gets through to an English audience, either deliberately to sanitise or to escalate depending on which side to spin it, or simply through mistranslation or differing word meanings.
Indeed.
I feel there is a sadly very close parallel between Hamas and the Na*is. Both elected to power, (once then clung on by violence), both willing to lead their countries to destruction because of extreme genocidal beliefs, and indeed both regimes were not only virulently anti semitic but also anti-gay, misogynistic and violent.
It could be argued that 1930s Germany was pushed into electing H*ler because following a war they were not defeated in, the cruel French and Allies stole ancestral German land and punished them so badly. (Which was a narrative in Germany in the 1930s). So they turned to the leader who found a bunch of people to scapegoat and promised to release them from their prison by force and take back what had been stolen from them. Sound familiar?
Interestingly, there were Allied politicians in the 1930s who were in favour of releasing constraints on Germany as they recognised that the punishing conditions they existed in were counterproductive. But in end, irrespective of that, when Germany finally crossed a line, the only way through was to crush the Na*i regime.... accepting that many Germans who were not members of the Party but who had tacitly supported the regime because it restored order and national pride, would also suffer.
Let's be clear. Hamas are a vile terrorist organisation who are very clear about their goals to exterminate all Jews. When they tell us in their charter what they are about we need to believe it because they mean it. They like ISIS use deliberate brutality and cannot be negotiated with. They have a very different world view, with a strong strand of "end times" extreme religion driving them, quoting a hadith about end times in their charter. They do not share our value set and like a nasty street thug, they can only be stopped by force. They are fanatics who believe that killing others and even themself for their god will win them a place in paradise and so don't operate with anything like the sort of moral compass that we do (perhaps more accurate to say that they have a "moral compass" but it's calibrated very differently to ours).
That is what Israel faces. Apologists for Hamas are on the same moral level as apologists for the Na*zis (IMO).
Never Again.
TPO
Comparisons are difficult, but if one has to made with the Nazis, in this, I would say the actions of the state of Israel is a more valid comparison (neither is in any way equivalent and it's a bit of a silly comparison to make really); remember Israel is the invading occupying force who has displaced many civilians.
Hamas is a terrorist organisation that has a tiny proportion of the firepower of Israel. It's not comparable to the state of Israel.
Apologists for the actions of Israel are on a similar level to apologists for the Nazis in my opinion.
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This is nonsense.
Furthermore, Israel is already widely - and quote correctly - accused of committing genocide:
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Meanwhile, in the real world:
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Very good point.
Oppression of a population does not end well.
Any further escalation will make things worse; those in either side who think the other side can be 'destroyed' or somehow eliminated are utterly deluded.
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I would suggest you do so.
Really?
Gaza: Children screamed in street as we fled 2am air strike
Power runs out in Gaza after another night of massive destruction by Israeli forces.
www.bbc.co.uk
If you do some more research into Gaza, and admit you got this wrong, I would have huge respect for that...
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Comparing Israel to the Nazis? I'm sorry, that's completely absurd.Comparisons are difficult, but if one has to made with the Nazis, in this, I would say the actions of the state of Israel is a more valid comparison (neither is in any way equivalent and it's a bit of a silly comparison to make really); remember Israel is the invading occupying force who has displaced many civilians.
Hamas is a terrorist organisation that has a tiny proportion of the firepower of Israel. It's not comparable to the state of Israel.
Apologists for the actions of Israel are on a similar level to apologists for the Nazis in my opinion.
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This is nonsense.
Furthermore, Israel is already widely - and quote correctly - accused of committing genocide:
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Meanwhile, in the real world:
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Very good point.
Oppression of a population does not end well.
Any further escalation will make things worse; those in either side who think the other side can be 'destroyed' or somehow eliminated are utterly deluded.
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I would suggest you do so.
Really?
Gaza: Children screamed in street as we fled 2am air strike
Power runs out in Gaza after another night of massive destruction by Israeli forces.
If you do some more research into Gaza, and admit you got this wrong, I would have huge respect for that...
All Israel has ever sought is to exist. Unfortunately, in order to stay in existence, it has to to fight against it's enemies that surround it, many times. Now, you can disagree on it's methods, but to compare it to the Nazis is just frankly ridiculous.
Israel is in a constant fight for it's survival. As many others have said on here, it's easy to judge it's actions, but it's fighting an enemy that doesn't care about international law and are seeking to wipe out an entire race of people. How you can look at both sides and say Israel are the evil ones I'm not really sure (though I don't like using comparisons in the first place).
It's so easy for us in a safe, Western country to judge their actions. However, I actually think at times their actions are restrained compared to what some countries would do in their position.
Let's for a moment imagine that the situation was reversed, and it was the Palestinians with the power and the army, and the Jews without. I shudder to think at what would happen in this situation. Well actually, we do already know, as what the events at the weekend showed. Holocaust number 2. So I just don't understand how you look at the situation and think Israel are the Nazis.
Falcon1200
Established Member
If the great majority of people living in Gaza really do wish for peace with Israel, they should rise up, overthrow Hamas and elect leaders who do not believe in the destruction of Israel and the mass murder of its citizens; Although given the nature of Hamas that would not of course be a simple or painless process.
As you hint in your final sentence, this would effectively mean meeting Hamas on their own terms, as they're the more unscrupulous killers.
I would be more than happy to back up my argument with some more evidence.
Firstly, can I just say that any comparisons between Israel and the Nazis are completely absurd and frankly very dangerous? I would probably not compare Hamas to Nazis myself, but it has to be noted that in the current scheme of things one side is looking for acceptance and existence of a nation state, whereas the other side is out to achieve the total destruction of the Jewish race and ultimately a global Islamic State. It's not a fair comparison at all and I fear that, when comparing Israel to the Nazis, one may simply be becoming something of a useful idiot for a terrorist cause. To be completely honest this comes as no surprise to me, as multiple mainstream public figures on the left have sought to create whataboutisms and even claim that Hamas are simply "defending" the Gazans from imminent genocide. In my opinion this is usually a front for anti-Semitism, although this should sadly come as no surprise from the left of the Labour Party.
- Of the population of Israel, 73% are Jewish and 21% Arab. If there has been a constant genocide for 80 years it hasn't been very successful. This figure does not include Gaza or the West Bank.
- It is beyond a doubt that there was significant ethnic cleansing during the first years of the state of Israel, with 80% of the Arab population being expelled. The current Arab population of over 2 million are largely descendants of the 150,000 who were not expelled, or more recent refugees from the Palestinian territories who have gained Israeli citizenship.
- Muslims comprise of 17.9% of the population of Israel. This population is largely less religious than in the surrounding nations, and are very peaceful and many do not support the extremism. There are also significant Christian Arab and Druze Arab populations. The Druze in particular are much more pro-Israel than even the Israeli Jewish population, while Christian Arabs are one of the most educated groups in the country.
- The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs states that "Arab Israelis are citizens of Israel with equal rights" and states that "The only legal distinction between Arab and Jewish citizens is not one of rights, but rather of civic duty. Since Israel's establishment, Arab citizens have been exempted from compulsory service in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF)."
I would be very interested to know if you think any of this supports the claim of Arab genocide by the state of Israel.
One thing I think we can definitely agree on is that the plight of civilians in Gaza is absolutely tragic and that their lives are worth just as much as those of Israelis, or indeed people in our own country. It breaks my heart to see the videos of children fleeing for their lives from bombings and to read stories such as those of Humza Yousaf's in-laws.
However, whilst you and others would seemingly put the blame for civilian suffering and death on Israel, I would be more inclined to blame the current situation on Hamas.
Multiple humanitarian groups have been doing a great work in looking after the population of the Gaza strip, in fact before this current conflict 80% of the population relied on external aid. Groups such as the EU have funded civilian infrastructure, however Hamas have since used the water pipes installed to make rockets to fire at Israeli cities. Hamas has proven time and time again that the welfare of Gazans comes second to their primary goal, which is killing Jews. The current humanitarian crisis would have been much softer if, for example, Hamas had stockpiled supplies of fuel, rather than using those supplies to launch rocket strikes.
I repeat my earlier question - how would you suggest the IDF remove Hamas without causing civilian casualties? In the history of human conflict, no other nation has gone to these extremes to minimise death and destruction to their enemies, if the aim of Israel was really genocide surely they would have carpet bombed the entire strip, killing all the residents? They certainly have the capacity to do so.
Firstly, can I just say that any comparisons between Israel and the Nazis are completely absurd and frankly very dangerous? I would probably not compare Hamas to Nazis myself, but it has to be noted that in the current scheme of things one side is looking for acceptance and existence of a nation state, whereas the other side is out to achieve the total destruction of the Jewish race and ultimately a global Islamic State. It's not a fair comparison at all and I fear that, when comparing Israel to the Nazis, one may simply be becoming something of a useful idiot for a terrorist cause. To be completely honest this comes as no surprise to me, as multiple mainstream public figures on the left have sought to create whataboutisms and even claim that Hamas are simply "defending" the Gazans from imminent genocide. In my opinion this is usually a front for anti-Semitism, although this should sadly come as no surprise from the left of the Labour Party.
Claims that Israel are perpetuating genocide are nineteen to the dozen at the moment, so I will respond by just giving a few simple facts and let you make your own conclusion.
- Of the population of Israel, 73% are Jewish and 21% Arab. If there has been a constant genocide for 80 years it hasn't been very successful. This figure does not include Gaza or the West Bank.
- It is beyond a doubt that there was significant ethnic cleansing during the first years of the state of Israel, with 80% of the Arab population being expelled. The current Arab population of over 2 million are largely descendants of the 150,000 who were not expelled, or more recent refugees from the Palestinian territories who have gained Israeli citizenship.
- Muslims comprise of 17.9% of the population of Israel. This population is largely less religious than in the surrounding nations, and are very peaceful and many do not support the extremism. There are also significant Christian Arab and Druze Arab populations. The Druze in particular are much more pro-Israel than even the Israeli Jewish population, while Christian Arabs are one of the most educated groups in the country.
- The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs states that "Arab Israelis are citizens of Israel with equal rights" and states that "The only legal distinction between Arab and Jewish citizens is not one of rights, but rather of civic duty. Since Israel's establishment, Arab citizens have been exempted from compulsory service in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF)."
I would be very interested to know if you think any of this supports the claim of Arab genocide by the state of Israel.
I do wish you and others would stop using such inflammatory terms and language and instead make an effort to have a sensible debate.
One thing I think we can definitely agree on is that the plight of civilians in Gaza is absolutely tragic and that their lives are worth just as much as those of Israelis, or indeed people in our own country. It breaks my heart to see the videos of children fleeing for their lives from bombings and to read stories such as those of Humza Yousaf's in-laws.
However, whilst you and others would seemingly put the blame for civilian suffering and death on Israel, I would be more inclined to blame the current situation on Hamas.
Multiple humanitarian groups have been doing a great work in looking after the population of the Gaza strip, in fact before this current conflict 80% of the population relied on external aid. Groups such as the EU have funded civilian infrastructure, however Hamas have since used the water pipes installed to make rockets to fire at Israeli cities. Hamas has proven time and time again that the welfare of Gazans comes second to their primary goal, which is killing Jews. The current humanitarian crisis would have been much softer if, for example, Hamas had stockpiled supplies of fuel, rather than using those supplies to launch rocket strikes.
I repeat my earlier question - how would you suggest the IDF remove Hamas without causing civilian casualties? In the history of human conflict, no other nation has gone to these extremes to minimise death and destruction to their enemies, if the aim of Israel was really genocide surely they would have carpet bombed the entire strip, killing all the residents? They certainly have the capacity to do so.
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Seems to be a bit of a drop of opinion pieces on the guardian website today. Some very good articles from those on the left of the Israeli political spectrum. If anyone has 20 minutes free I'd definitely recommend heading over there and having a look
Update : Israel, the US, Qatar and Egypt are discussing the possibility of restoring supplies to Gaza in exchange for the hostages. Hopefully this can gain traction and will be successful at preventing hundreds or thousands of unnecessary deaths.
Olaf Scholz has taken a hard stance against those supporting Hamas or anti-Israel activities such as burning flags. This is a very positive move and I hope other western and Arab countries follow suit.
Olaf Scholz has taken a hard stance against those supporting Hamas or anti-Israel activities such as burning flags. This is a very positive move and I hope other western and Arab countries follow suit.
Furthermore, Iranian president Ebrahim Raisi has repeated claims of Israeli genocide of the Palestinians - I would encourage some on here to research this and consider whether you would really want to be aligned in beliefs with regimes such as Iran and Russia. Of course this does not assume that the Israeli regime are completely blameless - in fact quite the opposite.
I think this is the difficulty with a lot of this argument. Nobody can deny that Hamas are violent extremists intent on the death of their perceived enemies and pretty much nothing at all beyond that. Nobody should minimise, excuse or deny their heinous crimes - we unfortunately have seen attempts at that by a very small number of misguided people, usually who are very poorly informed, though that's something I've never seen in this forum. But we can't conclude from the simple presence of 20 - 30 thousand violent militants that almost 2.5 million people are sharing in the goal of killing Jews, conquering Israel by force and so on. People without a government, a job, enough resources to live or any prospect if improvement will often claim to support violent resistance because they're angry. However crimes don't come from thought by itself, from what you tell a pollster or answer in a survey. Such ideas among those who've not committed violent crime are not deeply embedded. The crime comes from publicly whipping up the hatred and encouraging other people to do the same, or from taking violent action against other people. While fighting is taking place people are always going to feel threatened, and then it's natural to psychologically use tribal identity to separate friends from foes. This is happening in the Israeli war cabinet with Ganzt and Netanyahu, and it is happening on the streets of Gaza with ordinary families and Hamas militants.
I would reject the parallels being drawn with the Nazi party personally.
I agree that suggestions that Hamas is comparable to the Nazis is absurd. It makes no sense as one was a regime which invaded multiple countries and the other hasn't even got control of a fully independent state.
That's a misrepresentation of the conflict.
Ah, the usual attack on "the left"; I don't think any of this helps the debate.
You can quote whatever you want but you are very selective in your quoting. Did you watch the video I linked to above?
In my opinion the state of Israel is indeed committing genocide; I refer you to the link I provided above.
I am having a sensible debate but you are not listening.
That's good, but if you truly agree with me on this, how can you justify Israel's actions?
Israel are in control of their own actions; the idea that if a terrorist organisation commits a crime, a state can justifiably cut power, supplies to, and wreak havoc on the civilian population and their infrastructure in retaliation is absurd.
None of this can be used to justify the current actions against civilians and their infrastructure.
I already answered that; my answer remains the same.
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If there are any particularly interesting comments, I would encourage you to link to, and quote from a selection of them.
For sure there are good people on the left of the Israeli political spectrum who dislike what the state of Israel is doing; the people of Israel who don't support such actions must not in any way be blamed or held to account for what their state is doing.
I don't have the time or energy to write you a proper full length response, I would rather let all the evidence I have posted upthread do the talking for me.
I did watch the video you linked, that was the reason for my comments about the welfare of the civilians.
I will not be posting further comments on this thread after this, as it appears that you are perfectly comfortable to ignore the fact that hundreds of civilians have been brutally murdered because it doesn't fit your narrative that Israelis are Nazis, which is a completely crazy claim with no backing. As I have stated multiple times, the amount of support for anti-Semitism in our society is deep and, knowingly or unknowingly, maintaining only one side of the debate in an incredibly complicated situation is indirectly condoning terrorism.
Thank you to all who posted reasonable arguments, this has been an interesting experience to say the least. Have a good day and remember to prioritize your mental health over trying to score political points by supporting the "right" side.
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I am not "ignoring" the fact, but I do not believe that the actions are proportionate.
I did not say that "Israelis are Nazis", so please withdraw this "claim".
I am not condoning terrorism.
Oppressing people is, however, risking breeding terrorism. Have you considered that?
Is my belief that international law and UN resolutions should be followed by nation states deemed reasonable or unreasonable? I'm not sure if this statement is implying I am being unreasonable or not? In any case you are entitled to your opinions but I strongly disagree that the actions you appear to bejustifying are justified.
Putting aside your inference for one minute that a militant party would be in a position of ruling palestine if it was an independent state the economy/size/power of Isreal .
I would strongly suspect If the roles were reversed then its unlikely that a Palestinian state would have the global support that Isreal does, people wouldn't be running to share their military hardware with them . People would be condemming them left right and centre and calling for them to show restraint . And the UN security council would be considering sanctions against them .
I personally shudder at the thought of what already happens to people in Gaza on a daily basis , even before this current outbreak of fighting sparked by the attacks by Hamas over the weekend . And yes before anyone accuses me spuriously of being a hamas appologist I also shudder at the thought of the masacre Hamas carried out at the weekend .
This is another issue , in my view people are acting in bad faith conflating support for the idea of freedom for palestine , concern for the people of Gaza or criticism of Isreals actions both in the current outbreak of fighting or in history with support for Hamas . Its possible to condemn Hamas whilst being critical of Isreal . I know the texbook retort to that is "what should Isreal do" and tht has kinda been done to death already in this thread .
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See what Hamas did to the people they consider their enemies on Saturday , now imagine what they would do to a person or group they considered traitors within their own territory . Its easy to proclaim that this is a possible solution on a largely irrelevent forum . But given the material conditions a lot of people in Gaza live in this is the last thing on their minds .
Its kinda similar to the pseudo-intellectuals on the left talking about revolution or seizing the means of production to working class people struggling to make ends meet .
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I'm certainly not ignoring that, and that isn't how it comes across to me that @yorkie is either. I don't think anyone can justify, excuse, minimise or deny the horror of the awful violent deaths inflicted on unarmed citizens by Hamas militants. I apologise for repeating the point but as many pages have passed since I said it last: I utterly condemn violence and killing, hostage-taking or maiming of unarmed civilians. I especially loathe religiously "justified" violence. I reject in the strongest terms the ideology of the leadership of Hamas. They don't speak for or stand up in the interests of Gazan Muslims any more than they speak for British or American Muslims.
GS250
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I think the genuine fear has always been what would happen if such a terrorist group could acquire a nuclear weapon. There would be absolutely no hesitation in using it.
For all the horrors of what is going on in Ukraine, I remain utterly convinced that these devices have prevented escalation and will absolutely not be used in any circumstances.
For all the horrors of what is going on in Ukraine, I remain utterly convinced that these devices have prevented escalation and will absolutely not be used in any circumstances.
Advocating unequipped families to instigate a violent uprising - not sure that's a great sales pitch.
I'm sure a great many opinions of many members on this forum, including yourself, are aligned with all sorts of horrible people on certain issues - a stopped clock is right twice a day etc.
Unfortunately it's simply an impossibility while the Gazans have so little support - Hamas are perfectly happy to brutally torture and kill other Muslims if it suits their goals to do so. Palestinians elsewhere may have a slightly more leverage.
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Falcon1200
Established Member
Overthrowing a regime does not automatically mean a violent uprising; It is possible through the ballot box, although I agree that means is unlikely in Gaza.
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