2023 Israel - Hamas / Hezbollah war

[Starmill]

That’s not really what I said though.

True - you knowingly tried to deceive people into thinking it's about property damage rather than the killing of unarmed combatants. Perhaps you're troubled enough by it subconsciously that you're using euphemisms like "flattened a bit of concrete" as an attempt to persuade yourself you're right.

 

[Iskra]

True - you knowingly tried to deceive people into thinking it's about property damage rather than the killing of unarmed combatants. Perhaps you're troubled enough by it subconsciously that you're using euphemisms like "flattened a bit of concrete" as an attempt to persuade yourself you're right.

Are you actually okay? Trying to tell me what I’m apparently thinking and that I’m somehow subconsciously trying to manipulate other posters opinions is one of the most bizarre things I’ve ever read on here. Accusations are frankly what people who are projecting their own mindset tend to be good at.

If it was about purely killing civilians, why would they issue warnings?

I’m not particularly troubled by it (which is perhaps the most alarming bit of all), seeing military or terrorist devastation in ever more detail is an increasingly normal element of the world we live in unfortunately.

 

[Starmill]

If it was about purely killing civilians, why would they issue warnings?

Nobody's saying that though are they? What I said was that the civilians are in the way, and their lives are being deliberately sacrificed in pursuit of the strategic and economic goals of the Netanyahu government. That goes substantially beyond self-defence. The policies of blockbuster destruction in Gaza and settlement in the occupied Palestinian territories, which are the ones which cause the Israeli government quite a bit of international grief, are also strongly criticised within the domestic opposition and media, even though there's very little recognisable of a "left wing" left today. It shouldn't come as a shock to you that there's a lot of international pressure opposing those unlawful policies.

 

[Iskra]

Nobody's saying that though are they? What I said was that the civilians are in the way, and their lives are being deliberately sacrificed in pursuit of the strategic and economic goals of the Netanyahu government. That goes substantially beyond self-defence. The policies of blockbuster destruction and settlement, which are the ones which cause the Israeli government quite a bit of international grief, are also strongly criticised within the domestic opposition and media, even though there's very little recognisable of a "left wing" left today. It shouldn't come as a shock to you that there's a lot of international pressure opposing those unlawful policies.

1) The civilians aren’t in the way if they have been warned to leave, and do so.
2) No. Palestinian lives were gambled/disregarded away by Hamas (elected) when choosing to launch a mass attack on (primarily) civilians. There were always going to be repercussions, and my sympathy is limited.
3) ‘Steel not flesh’, is an entirely reasonable way to fight a war. It’s how you’d want it to be done if you were involved in one. Obviously, we’d all rather there was no need for it at all, but it’s the least worst option.

 

[Starmill]

1) The civilians aren’t in the way if they have been warned to leave, and do so.
2) No. Palestinian lives were gambled/disregarded away by Hamas (elected) when choosing to launch a mass attack on (primarily) civilians. There were always going to be repercussions, and my sympathy is limited.
3) ‘Steel not flesh’, is an entirely reasonable way to fight a war. It’s how you’d want it to be done if you were involved in one. Obviously, we’d all rather there was no need for it at all, but it’s the least worst option.

What about when the buildings are collapsed in such a way that there's nowhere safe to reach? Or there's no time to evacuate? Or no warning given at all? Clearly the residents are not ignoring the warnings, and yet so many are dead. After they are dead they can hardly speak for themselves can they? Hamas were "elected" in the loosest sense of the word. There are low tens of thousands of violent extremists who feel their only role in life is to kill Jews. But there are almost 2.5 million people living in Gaza. Gazans specifically are in reality stateless and abandoned. Hamas have what little control there is, but they're not a legitimate government. They're simply the biggest and baddest of the murderous thugs who inevitably will take over a compressed, deeply impoverished and heavily bombed population. Likud on the other hand are far more responsible for taking care because they are leading a formal and well-established world government, with many western allies and orders of magnitude more resources. Nobody has even tried to say that I've seen that it wouldn't be proportionate to use deadly force against Hamas' fighters. That the business of war. However people are objecting to some specific choices made by the Prime Minister and government. That appears to be absolutely unacceptable to you for some reason but unfortunately people will generally try to stand up for these principles when unarmed non-combatants are dying in large numbers.

Why are you this unhappy with people declaring the blockbuster policy, the extrajudicial killings by the settlers, or the use of starvation as a weapon to be war crimes? It couldn't be further from a "steel not flesh" approach. That's why people are making the criticism.

 

[muz379]

Ive kept out of this thread for the most part , largely because arguments here are irrelevant to the plight of those on the ground in situation regardless of what side they are on , and just like in the real world situations positions and viewpoints become so entrenched for a range of different reasons .

Have you not seen the videos of Gazan civilians dancing around the dead bodies of raped women and children? There are many innocent people in Gaza but they're not the overwhelming majority you seem to think they are.

But I just wanted to say , that is by no means a sensible way of actually gauging public opinion or support or decideing how many people are actually innocent .

The population of Gaza is a little over 2 million , a few seconds of video showing a handful of peoeople is hardly representative .

I mean I saw a video of a group of people at a feee palestine demo the other day in the UK saying some unacceptable things in support of hamas , but i'd be well wide of the mark if I said their views werent those of an incredibly small minority . Their views dont even align with many of those that support the idea of freedom for palestine let alone the rest of the population .

 

[MP33]

Joe Biden gave a speech describing what has happened in Israel. As there be will be far worse that what he was told. I can see when the invasion starts. The Senior Officers of the Israeli army being unable to control the actions of their men. It will be on the scale of what the Russian army did in Germany in 1945.

 

[nw1]

Are innocent Palestinians who Israel have threatened to bomb and starve not victims in this too?

The fact is, as has been the case for decades, neither "side" in this war are the good guys. You can argue semantics and levels of blame as much as you want, but it is the innocent people on both sides who are suffering.

Personally I don't have the time of day for Hamas or the Israeli government. I do have sympathy with those Palestinians who were kicked out of their homes never to be allowed to return mind you, and innocent people on both sides caught in the middle of it all.

What I was referring to is that the initial act of aggression in the current conflict was by Hamas.

And I was not attempting to lay blame on innocent Palestinians. My comment was directed against UK/Western groups (such as the group who I received an email from) who seem to believe that only Palestinians are victims in the current conflict, and not Israelis. This is unacceptable partisanship.

This is part of a general problem amongst too many Westerners, who seem to take one "side" or another based on what seems like groupthink based on political tribe, rather than assessing in an objective way which party started a particular round of aggression. And in this round of aggression, Hamas unambiguously started it.

 

[Iskra]

What about when the buildings are collapsed in such a way that there's nowhere safe to reach? Or there's no time to evacuate? Or no warning given at all? Clearly the residents are not ignoring the warnings, and yet so many are dead. After they are dead they can hardly speak for themselves can they? Hamas were "elected" in the loosest sense of the word. There are low tens of thousands of violent extremists who feel their only role in life is to kill Jews. But there are almost 2.5 million people living in Gaza. Gazans specifically are in reality stateless and abandoned. Hamas have what little control there is, but they're not a legitimate government. They're simply the biggest and baddest of the murderous thugs who inevitably will take over a compressed, deeply impoverished and heavily bombed population. Likud on the other hand are far more responsible for taking care because they are leading a formal and well-established world government, with many western allies and orders of magnitude more resources.

Why are you this unhappy with people declaring the blockbuster policy, the extrajudicial killings by the settlers, or the use of starvation as a weapon to be war crimes? It couldn't be further from a steel not flesh approach. That's why people are making the criticism.

All IDF can do is wage war in the most reasonable way possible, if they are taking clear measures to avoid civilian casualties and some are still killed as a byproduct of fighting murdering terrorists, then that is unfortunate. Responsibility, still lies with Hamas for those deaths on this occasion in my opinion, as sad as those deaths are.

Tens of thousands, is still an extremely large number of terrorists to be harbouring.

I feel sympathy for the general Palestinian situation, it is indeed a regrettable one, but that absolutely does not make deliberate mass murder of civilians acceptable.

I’m discussing Steel not Flesh being entirely reasonable one as a way of waging war as it is the one we would choose if we were having to fight it (assuming we can all agree that war is evil and rarely ‘clean’, and as already mentioned taking it as the least worst option). Blockade is a different matter, but again probably the least worst option, considering there aren’t particularly many good ones. We blockaded Germany twice and while it definitely wasn’t nice, it was incredibly effective.

I wouldn’t say I’m unhappy about any element of people criticising Israeli policy- I’m saying they are acting as reasonably as possible in an extraordinary situation, within reasonable expectations of what most people would expect from their own government if it were there own country (thus there is some incredible hypocrisy going-on) and that responsibility for all deaths lies with Hamas during this particular episode of violence because they should have (ideally) not murdered hundreds of civilians in the first place and secondly, factored-in the likely reaction before doing so.

 

[Starmill]

harbouring

Again "harbouring" - the lack of perspective and empathy is deeply worrying. There are a lot of people in the world. Frustratingly some of them have views so extreme they may be beyond help. However I choose not to guilt almost 2.5 million people who are in desperate poverty by absolutely nothing other than the bad luck of where they were born. Nearly all of them are not fighters. Few seriously will harbour the belief that Jews don't deserve the right to life and home. Most would be amenable to a settlement. Plenty will even accept that the post-war Arab leaders were fundamentally wrong to reject a partition or two-state solution.

If you do want to do that, that's fine. But expect people to resist your arguments, strongly, when you do. And expect to be harshly criticised.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2023 ==

but that absolutely does not make deliberate mass murder of civilians acceptable.

There isn't anyone here who is trying to imply that the attack was reasonable, justified or acceptable. Indeed I haven't even seen anyone here suggesting that Hamas as an organisation should continue or be respected in any future negotiations, in a comparable way with the IRA and SF. It has been escalated so far now by Hamas that they probably will have to be functionally destroyed before anything else can happen. But realistically there's zero point in obliterating Hamas and then just leaving Gaza as is, an impoverished and partly destroyed open-air-prison. If that were to happen another similar but slightly different militia would simply start up, with the descendants of the dead Hamas fighters recruited into it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2023 ==

responsibility for all deaths lies with Hamas

This is wrong, and fundamentally goes against international law. As I've already explained several times.

 

[hst43102]

Again "harbouring" - the lack of perspective and empathy is deeply worrying. There are a lot of people in the world. Frustratingly some of them have views so extreme they may be beyond help. However I choose not to guilt almost 2.5 million people who are in desperate poverty by absolutely nothing other than the bad luck of where they were born. Nearly all of them are not fighters. Few seriously will harbour the belief that Jews don't deserve the right to life and home. Most would be amenable to a settlement. Plenty will even accept that the post-war Arab leaders were fundamentally wrong to reject a partition or two-state solution.

If you do want to do that, that's fine. But expect people to resist your arguments, strongly, when you do. And expect to be harshly criticised.

I'm going to write a proper reply to your earlier points in the morning, but I just wanted to ask if you have any sources for the claim that few people in Gaza believe that Jews shouldn't have the right to life. Everything I have seen in the last few days, and indeed history, seems to prove otherwise. Obviously this doesn't mean that the Gazans don't have a right to live, and I seriously hope that the IDF do everything possible to minimise civilian losses. But I don't think you understand the situation properly if you believe that Israel just has to lift the blockade and that Hamas won't just try and kill Jews as has happened almost every time before.

 

[Starmill]

I just wanted to ask if you have any sources for the claim that few people in Gaza believe that Jews shouldn't have the right to life.

What makes you think they would? That the leader of Hamas says its so? Why would he be telling the truth? Most people are reasonable and won't take up violent persecution on religious grounds, or wish death on their fellow humans. I don't think that's a difficult or controversial starting position is it? So why would you imagine the opposite?

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if you believe that Israel just has to lift the blockade and that Hamas won't just try and kill Jews as has happened almost every time before.

Nobody's suggesting that. But ultimately how do you think this could end other than through statehood for the Gazans and other stateless people? It clearly needs an enormous amount of money and time to build a new state, and wouldn't ever be achieved by lifting the restrictions and saying "there you go then".

If you're of the view there can't be a two state solution there's only two other options, one is stalemate for generations, and the other is that people continue to die until nearly everyone from one side is dead. There's no chance that'd be the Israelis so in practical terms the only way it could change from the current situation for Gaza is either via statehood for the Palestinians or waiting until they're all dead.

 

[hst43102]

What makes you think they would? That the leader of Hamas says its so? Why would he be telling the truth? Most people are reasonable and won't take up violent persecution on religious grounds, or wish death on their fellow humans. I don't think that's a difficult or controversial starting position is it? So why would you imagine the opposite?

I would urge you to do some more research into Gaza - every time Israel has given the city any infrastructure or humanitarian aid, Hamas uses it to try and genocide the Jews. I see no evidence whatsoever to prove that the majority of Gazans do not support this, in fact as I said, many seem to be brainwashed to the point of absolute evil. It will take a long and arduous process to de-radicalise the population, but that has been done before in Japan and Germany, so I for one hold out hope that peace will eventually come to Gaza once this conflict is resolved.

I note you still haven't provided any sources for any claims (I've tried to source as many of mine as possible) and you are still coming across rather condescending to be honest. I think we can all agree that the best way to minimise impacts to civilians would be to not have the war in the first place, and the blame for the current conflict lies directly on Hamas. I repeat that I hope Israel takes all measures possible to safeguard the population, and in my opinion they appear to be doing so in an appropriate fashion. Of course you may disagree.

 

[Iskra]

Again "harbouring" - the lack of perspective and empathy is deeply worrying. There are a lot of people in the world. Frustratingly some of them have views so extreme they may be beyond help. However I choose not to guilt almost 2.5 million people who are in desperate poverty by absolutely nothing other than the bad luck of where they were born. Nearly all of them are not fighters. Few seriously will harbour the belief that Jews don't deserve the right to life and home. Most would be amenable to a settlement. Plenty will even accept that the post-war Arab leaders were fundamentally wrong to reject a partition or two-state solution.

If you do want to do that, that's fine. But expect people to resist your arguments, strongly, when you do. And expect to be harshly criticised.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2023 ==


There isn't anyone here who is trying to imply that the attack was reasonable, justified or acceptable. Indeed I haven't even seen anyone here suggesting that Hamas as an organisation should continue or be respected in any future negotiations, in a comparable way with the IRA and SF. It has been escalated so far now by Hamas that they probably will have to be functionally destroyed before anything else can happen. But realistically there's zero point in obliterating Hamas and then just leaving Gaza as is, an impoverished and partly destroyed open-air-prison. If that were to happen another similar but slightly different militia would simply start up, with the descendants of the dead Hamas fighters recruited into it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2023 ==


This is wrong, and fundamentally goes against international law. As I've already explained several times.

It’s not wrong if Israel minimises civilian casualties, which it seemingly is doing. I’d still argue Hamas is morally responsible for all deaths due to conflict in the area since the latest round of violence started.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2023 ==

I note you still haven't provided any sources for any claims (I've tried to source as many of mine as possible) and you are still coming across rather condescending to be honest. I think we can all agree that the best way to minimise impacts to civilians would be to not have the war in the first place, and the blame for the current conflict lies directly on Hamas. I repeat that I hope Israel takes all measures possible to safeguard the population, and in my opinion they appear to be doing so in an appropriate fashion. Of course you may disagree.

Well said.

 

[Starmill]

I would urge you to do some more research into Gaza - every time Israel has given the city any infrastructure or humanitarian aid, Hamas uses it to try and genocide the Jews. I see no evidence whatsoever to prove that the majority of Gazans do not support this, in fact as I said, many seem to be brainwashed to the point of absolute evil. It will take a long and arduous process to de-radicalise the population, but that has been done before in Japan and Germany, so I for one hold out hope that peace will eventually come to Gaza once this conflict is resolved.

I note you still haven't provided any sources for any claims (I've tried to source as many of mine as possible) and you are still coming across rather condescending to be honest. I think we can all agree that the best way to minimise impacts to civilians would be to not have the war in the first place, and the blame for the current conflict lies directly on Hamas. I repeat that I hope Israel takes all measures possible to safeguard the population, and in my opinion they appear to be doing so in an appropriate fashion. Of course you may disagree, but I urge you to do so in a respectful manner without making outlandish and unsubstantiated claims and throwing insults at others in this discussion.

You don't like the Palestinians - that's fine. You're entitled to that opinion. But let's not condemn almost 2.5 million people to death on the back of your hunches eh?

It is in the very nature of extremist groups that people feel obligated to go along with them when nobody else will support them That's precisely why the extremist voices gained influence in Gaza at the end of the last occupation. You've not got a shred of evidence that almost 2.5 million people want every Israeli dead and don't accept the right if the Israeli state to exist.

 

[hst43102]

If you're of the view there can't be a two state solution there's only two other options, one is stalemate for generations, and the other is that people continue to die until nearly everyone from one side is dead. There's no chance that'd be the Israelis so in practical terms the only way it could change from the current situation for Gaza is either via statehood for the Palestinians or waiting until they're all dedead.

Just to clear up this point, I have repeatedly stated that I am firmly in favour of a two state solution and, before this current conflict, would have considered myself pro-Palestinian. In fact I hope that one of the outcomes of this war is that Israel removes all Settlements from the West Bank and makes moves towards a peaceful transition to statehood there. Previously I would have included Gaza in that but the events of the last few days have proved that such an outcome would likely just push the Hamas attacks a year or two down the road.
I would also like to see more blame put towards Hamas's backers - namely Iran and Qatar - as they have got the blood of thousands on their hands.

 

[hst43102]

You don't like the Palestinians - that's fine. You're entitled to that opinion. But let's not condemn almost 2.5 million people to death on thr back of your hunches eh?

When have I ever made a claim to dislike Palestinians? I love their culture and the Palestinians I have had the privilege of meeting have been wonderful people, as I am sure many of them in Gaza are. I do, however, dislike terrorists and anti-Semites, and unfortunately there are a lot of them in Gaza too, and this war has clearly been started by them.
Please, please do not go accusing me or any others of claims like that without evidence.

 

[Iskra]

You don't like the Palestinians - that's fine. You're entitled to that opinion. But let's not condemn almost 2.5 million people to death on the back of your hunches eh?

It is in the very nature of extremist groups that people feel obligated to go along with them when nobody else will support them That's precisely why the extremist voices gained influence in Gaza at the end of the last occupation. You've not got a shred of evidence that almost 2.5 million people want every Israeli dead and don't accept the right if the Israeli state to exist.

I do wish you’d stop telling people what they believe…

Just to clear up this point, I have repeatedly stated that I am firmly in favour of a two state solution and, before this current conflict, would have considered myself pro-Palestinian. In fact I hope that one of the outcomes of this war is that Israel removes all Settlements from the West Bank and makes moves towards a peaceful transition to statehood there. Previously I would have included Gaza in that but the events of the last few days have proved that such an outcome would likely just push the Hamas attacks a year or two down the road.
I would also like to see more blame put towards Hamas's backers - namely Iran and Qatar - as they have got the blood of thousands on their hands.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I have an update via Whatsapp from my sister in law. An attempted incursion was made on a northern Kibbutz earlier today from Lebanon. However, the IDF quickly neutralized it. She is of the opinion that Hamas have now lost the element of surprise.

 

[Starmill]

It’s not wrong if Israel minimises civilian casualties, which it seemingly is doing.

They didn't recently and haven't been doing this week. The numbers of dead bodies put this beyond a doubt I'm afraid. You can be in denial about it but unfortunately that doesn't bring anyone back to life.

 

[dakta]

When have I ever made a claim to dislike Palestinians?

well you didn't say you liked them so must be twoo.

Tongues in cheek on that one, but I've seen some rather creative interpretations of quotes, I'm quite the dishonest chap

 

[Starmill]

I do wish you’d stop telling people what they believe…

You just knowingly ascribed a violent anti-semitic viewpoint to an unclear but obviously very large proportion of Gazans, and without evidence - that they believe in religious persecution against the Jews, and that Israel has no right to exist. It's reasonable to conclude you disliked them if you say that.

 

[hst43102]

well you didn't say you liked them so must be twoo.

Tongues in cheek on that one, but I've seen some rather creative interpretations of quotes, I'm quite the dishonest chap

I can't say I have seen anything from @Starmill stating that they like the Palestinians either...although I've currently got every reason to believe they may be an anti-Semite in all but name. I also note that in post #293 they had the gall to ask me to:

Maybe don't start arguing with people when you're angry if that's how you feel. It can easily lead to escalation and you saying things you soon regret.

I have reviewed this entire discussion and I have not said one thing I regret. I'm not sure they could say the same though...

Seriously though, is it too much to just ask for a civil discussion?

 

[dakta]

Yeah I'd say so unfortunately. Palestine views aside it's actually been quite eye opening how tolerant society is to rape, beheadings, shootings etc when the shoe fits.

Besides learning a bit about the two sides of the broader dispute (which is interesting), the general takeaway seems to be, there is almost no atrocity that can't be explained away if you're that way inclined.


I'll try and remember the bombs falling on German towns the next time I have the audacity to give thought to the holocaust.

 

[Starmill]

I've currently got every reason to believe they may be an anti-Semite in all but name.

Going down this route are you? Lovely.

OK then let's hear it, what are your every reasons? They'd better be good!

 

[Iskra]

You just knowingly ascribed a violent anti-semitic viewpoint to an unclear but obviously very large proportion of Gazans, and without evidence - that they believe in religious persecution against the Jews, and that Israel has no right to exist. It's reasonable to conclude you disliked them if you say that.

Did I? Can you show me where?

I think you may wish to step away from the keyboard because you’re coming across increasingly irrationally.

 

[hst43102]

Yeah I'd say so unfortunately. Palestine views aside it's actually been quite eye opening how tolerant society is to rape, beheadings, shootings etc when the shoe fits.

I'll try and remember the bombs falling on German towns the next time I have the audacity to give thought to the holocaust.

Indeed, one thing I have noted is that those on the left (including LGBT groups and women's rights activists) have been largely in support of Palestine/Hamas (see my earlier post referencing a terrible post from BLM Chicago) when the view of Hamas is that LGBT folks should be stoned and that women should be seen as second class citizens. A little bit of a disconnect there?

 

[Starmill]

Seriously though, is it too much to just ask for a civil discussion?

I'd suggest you may find it easier to hold a civilised discussion with someone if you could be a little bit less partisan. This is difficult I know, because it's the consequence of a psychological effect called splitting.

However, if you say that someone "may be an anti-Semite in all but name" - that's a very, very good way to escalate an argument and probably won't be followed by whatever you're thinking of as "civil discussion".

 

[hst43102]

Going down this route are you? Lovely.

OK then let's hear it, what are your every reasons? They'd better be good!

I'd rather not continue with the name-calling and accusation throwing in this thread, but I would be happy to list my reasons as soon as you list my reasons for hating Palestinians as you stated upthread.

I will be taking a break from commenting here until I see an appropriate time to re-enter the discussion in a civil manner.

 

[Starmill]

Did I? Can you show me where?

I think you may wish to step away from the keyboard because you’re coming across increasingly irrationally.

Apologies I was quoting @hst43102 and clicked on the wrong button. Sorry.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2023 ==

I'd rather not continue with the name-calling and accusation throwing in this thread

Great I hoped so and thank you.