2023 Israel - Hamas / Hezbollah war

[nw1]

I'm on the list of a local anti-austerity group, which I joined in 2015 mostly out of annoyance towards Cameron's election victory and its implicit rubber-stamping of austerity.

I started going off them when they were ambivalent about Brexit, but I've received an email this week which is about a "solidarity for Palestine" rally.

Now I don't want to take sides, but as has been observed many times on here already, in the current conflict, Hamas are the aggressors and Israelis were the initial victims.

It really isn't right that such a group should take sides in this way, what about the Israeli victims of the past few days? Do they not matter? Really it should be a "solidarity for the victims of violence in the Hamas-initiated conflict, irrespective of ethnicity" rally.

 

[birchesgreen]

Interestingly the Egyptians warned the Israelis something was about to happen but were ignored. There will be some difficult questions to answer this for sure.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

However there's something particularly barbaric about beheading.

Especially when it is babies.

 

[Starmill]

Well the last time there was some trouble in the area there was a huge disruptive pro-Palestinian protest in Birmingham stopping traffic at a major traffic junction. I know because i was stuck in it for ages. To be honest it had been pretty intimidating. The police were present but did FA as usual.

The police can't take away people's right to peacefully protest usually, although the Conservative governments have tried to make that lawful in more circumstances, they haven't put meaningful resources into the police to do anything at all, so this shouldn't come as a surprise. If the worst consequences of the disruption were just traffic congestion then it seems unlikely that there was any offence for the police to actually do anything about anyway.

 

[Butts]

Anyway the leader of HAMAS (from his nice apartment in Doha natch) has called for muslims around the world to wage jihad (in various ways) including a day of rage worldwide on friday. Terrific.

Surprised Mossad haven't sent in a hit squad to eliminate him.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Surprised Mossad haven't sent in a hit squad to eliminate him.

Yet!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Anyway the leader of HAMAS (from his nice apartment in Doha natch) has called for muslims around the world to wage jihad (in various ways) including a day of rage worldwide on Friday. Terrific.

I always that that Muslims viewed Friday as a day of prayer.

 

[nw1]

I always that that Muslims viewed Friday as a day of prayer.

I guess that shows that the leader of Hamas isn't actually a devout Muslim at all, but rather a man obsessed with violence and driven by hatred of Israelis.

Plenty of people the world over use faith as an excuse for violence, yet most of the mainstream faiths actually preach peace and non-violence.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Hamas are the aggressors and Israelis were the initial victims.

Are innocent Palestinians who Israel have threatened to bomb and starve not victims in this too?

The fact is, as has been the case for decades, neither "side" in this war are the good guys. You can argue semantics and levels of blame as much as you want, but it is the innocent people on both sides who are suffering.

Personally I don't have the time of day for Hamas or the Israeli government. I do have sympathy with those Palestinians who were kicked out of their homes never to be allowed to return mind you, and innocent people on both sides caught in the middle of it all.

 

[Carlisle]

Surprised Mossad haven't sent in a hit squad to eliminate him.

Wont that be why he’s in Qatar rather than Gaza or an understanding near neighbour.?

 

[hst43102]

I guess that shows that the leader of Hamas isn't actually a devout Muslim at all, but rather a man obsessed with violence and driven by hatred of Israelis.

Plenty of people the world over use faith as an excuse for violence, yet most of the mainstream faiths actually preach peace and non-violence.

I really don't know where to stand on this. On one hand I agree with you, and every Muslim I have met - indeed, I have many close friends - are lovely people and would certainly say the same. However, in the quote I posted upthread, the leadership of Hamas are directly quoting from one of the Hadiths in which Muslims are told it is their individual duty to exterminate Jews. There is also a lot of problems in western society caused by our core beliefs clashing with those of Muslims also living in our society - for example last year multiple cinemas in the UK had to stop showing a film after protests and bomb threats, disorder and unrest in Leicester last year, and of course the murder of the French schoolteacher and terrorist attacks on Charlie Hebdo magazine. I think we need to have a wider discussion around how our society should react and accept those with completely opposing views, many of which are the third or fourth generation to live in this country.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2023 ==

Are innocent Palestinians who Israel have threatened to starve not victims in this too?

The fact is, as has been the case for decades, neither "side" in this war are the good guys. You can argue semantics and levels of blame as much as you want, but it is the innocent people on both sides who are suffering.

Personally I don't have the time of day for Hamas or the Israeli government.

Israel hasn't threatened to starve the occupants of Gaza - they are stopping supplies from Israel going to an area which they have declared war on. There is still the access routes to Gaza from Egypt - although Egypt has also closed the border. Surely the blood of innocent victims should not be placed on Egypt or Israel, but rather Hamas who kicked this war off?

 

[WelshBluebird]

Israel hasn't threatened to starve the occupants of Gaza - they are stopping supplies from Israel going to an area which they have declared war on. There is still the access routes to Gaza from Egypt - although Egypt has also closed the border.

Israel has literally said they want to totally blockade Gaza and stop the entry of food (amongst other things). How is that not threatening to starve those living in Gaza?
Fuel is also being blockaded, so much so the only power station in Gaza has now run out of fuel so there is now no electricity.

Surely the blood of innocent victims should not be placed on Egypt or Israel, but rather Hamas who kicked this war off?

Why should Israel get away with war crimes just because they were attacked? An eye for an eye makes the world blind. You don't just make other people suffer because you had to suffer.

 

[dakta]

Israel has literally said they want to totally blockade Gaza and stop the entry of food (amongst other things). How is that not threatening to starve those living in Gaza?

Because Israel can't itself blockade Gaza totally? Or are we blaming Israel if Egypt join in? Might as well add it to the list

 

[GusB]

Israel hasn't threatened to starve the occupants of Gaza - they are stopping supplies from Israel going to an area which they have declared war on. There is still the access routes to Gaza from Egypt - although Egypt has also closed the border. Surely the blood of innocent victims should not be placed on Egypt or Israel, but rather Hamas who kicked this war off?

Supplies could always be airlifted or shipped in from elsewhere, of course. Oh, wait - Israel controls the airspace and the waters around Gaza.

Not every Palestinian is responsible for the actions of Hamas, so why should everyone suffer the consequences?

Let's not forget that the Israeli security services are very effective at hunting individuals down and taking them out, and they could have chosen a very different route to bring those responsible to justice. This isn't about justice, though - it's about revenge and nobody is going to benefit from it in the long run.

 

[hst43102]

Israel has literally said they want to totally blockade Gaza and stop the entry of food (amongst other things). How is that not threatening to starve those living in Gaza?


Why should Israel get away with war crimes just because they were attacked? An eye for an eye makes the world blind. You don't just make other people suffer because you had to suffer.

Because Egypt also has access to Gaza. I don't think a country should continue to supply another during a war - has this ever happened before?
I don't think Israel should get away with war crimes at all. In fact, the whole situation would be much better if there were no war crimes committed by either side. But the scale of war crimes on each side is not the same:

- Israel is cutting off supplies and blockading their approaches to a region they have openly declared war on. It is the responsibility of the Gazan leadership to provide supplies for the civilians - this could involve negotiating the release of hostages or even a ceasefire. Whether Israel accepts these is a completely different matter.
- Israel is also tactically bombing areas of Gaza which are used as rocket storage and launch sites by terrorists. Multiple sources have stated that they are sending text messages to evacuate the area prior to bombardment and designating safe areas for refugees to gather in.
- Hamas, on the other hand, has brutally murdered hundreds of civilians in cold blood and has expressed a sole aim of exterminating all Jews.

Not exactly an equal comparison?

 

[birchesgreen]

Supplies could always be airlifted or shipped in from elsewhere, of course. Oh, wait - Israel controls the airspace and the waters around Gaza.

Not every Palestinian is responsible for the actions of Hamas, so why should everyone suffer the consequences?

Let's not forget that the Israeli security services are very effective at hunting individuals down and taking them out, and they could have chosen a very different route to bring those responsible to justice. This isn't about justice, though - it's about revenge and nobody is going to benefit from it in the long run.

What if Britain was at war for reasons you disagreed with, do you think an enemy would say "Don't bomb that bloke as he doesn't agree with the government.", unfortunately it doesn't work that way.

You bet IDF operations are about revenge, thats what the people expect. As would happen here if terrorists stormed people's homes and even a music festival and massacred civilians. Even the British wouldn't just tut in annoyance. They would want blood.

What is the status of the Egypt-Gaza land border?

 

[hst43102]

Supplies could always be airlifted or shipped in from elsewhere, of course. Oh, wait - Israel controls the airspace and the waters around Gaza.

Once again, Egypt exists. That's all I am going to say about that.

Not every Palestinian is responsible for the actions of Hamas, so why should everyone suffer the consequences?

I agree that not every Palestinian is responsible, but the residents of Gaza have been overwhelmingly in support of Hamas. I wish there was way to resolve this without civilian casualties but it is important to note that collateral damage has happened in every single war throughout history, and sadly this is no exception - in fact the use of human shields is likely to make this much worse.

Let's not forget that the Israeli security services are very effective at hunting individuals down and taking them out, and they could have chosen a very different route to bring those responsible to justice. This isn't about justice, though - it's about revenge and nobody is going to benefit from it in the long run.

What are you suggesting? Mossad will almost certainly be drawing up plans for the assassination, or, better still, Eichmann-style arrest of the Hamas leadership, but that does not solve the problem in Gaza. Sadly I think that this has reached a point at which full control and occupation is, for the foreseeable future, the only solution. I can only hope that the IDF continue to minimise civilian casualties as much as possible.

 

[GusB]

What if Britain was at war for reasons you disagreed with, do you think an enemy would say "Don't bomb that bloke as he doesn't agree with the government.", unfortunately it doesn't work that way.

You bet IDF operations are about revenge, thats what the people expect. As would happen here if terrorists stormed people's homes and even a music festival and massacred civilians. Even the British wouldn't just tut in annoyance. They would want blood.

What is the status of the Egypt-Gaza land border?

I would thoroughly object to us bombing residential areas on the off-chance that there were enemy combatants there and in the hope that innocent people manage to get out in time.

That's part of the problem here: some people are complete unwilling to accept that there are Palestinians who have nothing to do with the atrocities that were committed. The response is completely disproportionate and it won't solve anything because you'll end up with another generation of people left without any hope.

This conflict is *not* one-sided.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

An eye for an eye makes the world blind.

The concept of an eye for an eye is one of four comparisons stated in Mosaic Law in Exodus 21:23-27. It expresses the principal of reciprocal justice, but you have to remember how many eons ago the book of Exodus was written when matters were far different than the 21st century.

 

[birchesgreen]

I would thoroughly object to us bombing residential areas on the off-chance that there were enemy combatants there and in the hope that innocent people manage to get out in time.

That's part of the problem here: some people are complete unwilling to accept that there are Palestinians who have nothing to do with the atrocities that were committed. The response is completely disproportionate and it won't solve anything because you'll end up with another generation of people left without any hope.

This conflict is *not* one-sided.

Sure its not but unfortunately that is the nature of war, thats why it should always be avoided.

 

[hst43102]

What is the status of the Egypt-Gaza land border?

The Egypt-Gaza border is currently closed - quote (highlights my own)

Egypt is moving to avert a mass exodus from the Gaza Strip into its Sinai Peninsula, as Israeli bombardment halted crossings at the main exit point from the Palestinian enclave on Tuesday, Gaza officials and Egyptian security sources said.

Israel's assault on Gaza has caused alarm in Egypt, which has urged Israel to provide safe passage for civilians from the enclave rather than encouraging them to flee southwest towards Sinai, two Egyptian security sources said.

Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi said on Tuesday that the escalation in Gaza was "highly dangerous" and that Egypt was pursuing a negotiated solution to the violence with regional and international partners.

Egypt would not allow the issue to be settled at the expense of others, Sisi said in comments reported by state news agency MENA, an apparent reference to the risk that Palestinians could be pushed into Sinai.

 

[eldomtom2]

Because Israel can't itself blockade Gaza totally? Or are we blaming Israel if Egypt join in? Might as well add it to the list

This is an inexplicable argument. If two people rob a house, should they say they shouldn't be punished because neither one could have robbed the house alone?

 

[hst43102]

I would thoroughly object to us bombing residential areas on the off-chance that there were enemy combatants there and in the hope that innocent people manage to get out in time.

That's part of the problem here: some people are complete unwilling to accept that there are Palestinians who have nothing to do with the atrocities that were committed. The response is completely disproportionate and it won't solve anything because you'll end up with another generation of people left without any hope.

This conflict is *not* one-sided.

Would you have taken the same view during the Second World War? If the British and American governments at the time took your stance - which is idealistic at best - the war would likely have carried on far longer than it did, resulting in millions more casualties - most of them completely innocent. Collateral damage to civilians is an unfortunate side effect of every war, which is why war should be avoided at all costs. Sadly Hamas has decided that Palestinian civilians are a useful tool in achieving their goal of the extermination of the Jewish people.

 

[Starmill]

However, in the quote I posted upthread, the leadership of Hamas are directly quoting from one of the Hadiths in which Muslims are told it is their individual duty to exterminate Jews.

There's direct quoting and "quoting" - the meaning and setting in context of the passenge, as translated into modern English, is most certainly contested! He's using the scripture in a specific way in order to manipulate people into believing that their troubles can be solved through his form of faith.

Most Muslims would say that the concept of "Jihad" cannot apply to taking up arms and doing physical violence on your enemies, because the "greater Jihad" is a "battle" of faith and the mind, rather than a physical war with the "enemies" of Islam.

 

[birchesgreen]

There's direct quoting and "quoting" - the meaning of the passenge as translated ibto modern English is most certainly contested!

Well thats organised religion for you.

 

[GusB]

The utter hypocrisy spouted in this thread is unbelievable. Killing innocent Israelis - atrocity; killing innocent Palestinians - collateral damage. I don't see a difference between the two, to be honest.

I'm out.

 

[dakta]

This is an inexplicable argument. If two people rob a house, should they say they shouldn't be punished because neither one could have robbed the house alone?

This isn't robbing a house, this is just not supplying an area you're in active conflict with, that a) isn't your responsibility and b) has alternative options.

As mentioned above, it can always use other options...like a negotiation maybe.....................

I'm out.

If you can't tell there's any kind of difference between beheading a baby by intent and plan, and someone getting hurt despite best efforts to avoid them getting hurt probably for the best. I pray people of this disposition never have to defend a country.

 

[hst43102]

If you can't tell there's any kind of difference between beheading a baby by intent and plan, and someone getting hurt despite best efforts to avoid them getting hurt probably for the best. I pray people of this disposition never have to defend a country.

You've put that much better than I could have. This isn't a clear-cut good-vs-evil war, but it's not exactly both equals either. Well said.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2023 ==

There's direct quoting and "quoting" - the meaning and setting in context of the passenge, as translated into modern English, is most certainly contested! He's using the scripture in a specific way in order to manipulate people into believing that their troubles can be solved through his form of faith.

Most Muslims would say that the concept of "Jihad" cannot apply to taking up arms and doing physical violence on your enemies, because the "greater Jihad" is a "battle" of faith and the mind, rather than a physical war with the "enemies" of Islam.

Sorry, I should have made that a lot clearer. Is this not the problem with blindly following "religion" though? Perhaps that's the root of this issue...

 

[Starmill]

someone getting hurt despite best efforts to avoid them getting hurt

This is an inaccurate description though, which you're only advancing dishonestly, in order to try to manipulate the reader into believing they're morally broken.

What's actually happening is hundreds of people are being killed or seriously injured, including children, I note you used "beheaded" for one side and "hurt" for the other, despite their both being equally violent and grotesque ways to take the life of an unarmed non-combatant. You emphasised it to "babies" for one side, but then reduced it to "someone" for the other, even though many young children have now lost their lives over the past few days.

I haven't spotted anyone claiming on this forum that the attack on Israeli babies is somehow justified because their military commanders have killed Palestinian babies as collateral. Such an attack couldn't ever be justified.

 

[dakta]

You can, of course replace 'hurt' with 'killed' and my opinion would stand. Why? Because it doesn't change the fact people get hurt in wars. Killed, even. We did it above germany. Quite a few times.

You focus on my choice of words too much, which sounds about right since there's not much else you can do to justify beheadings, rape, etc... the point is sound though.

despite best efforts to avoid them getting hurt

The only way i could say the above was genuinely dishonest was if it was, well, dishonest. Is Israel not warning people to get out of the way, are they not texting people to give them advance notice of danger, are they not firing warning shots in advance?