Penalty Fare - Appeal

[Unicorn52]

Hello!

I am hoping you are able to help. I've read quite a few posts and found just a couple that are similar but not quite the same so I really appreciate any input.

I was issued a penalty fare after travelling from Waterloo (Merseyside) to Liverpool Central without collecting the ticket I booked on Trainline (I now understand that I should have done that and will not make that mistake again!).

I realised I had a ticket collection code and not a QR ticket as I entered the station, I didn't see a ticket office, ticket machine or member of staff so the train arrived and I got on thinking I would be able to get the ticket printed on the train.

As soon as I saw the ticket inspector I explained the situation. I was told that I should travel to Liverpool Central and speak to a member of staff who would let me collect the ticket from the machine and then put it through the barrier.

If I hadn't been told this, I would have got off at the first stop and get a printed ticket having realised having the ticket printed on the train wasn't possible.

Once I got to Liverpool Central I found a member of staff at the barrier and explained that I needed someone to help me to collect my ticket so I could properly exit the station. I was in fact directed to another ticket inspector who explained that he would need to take my details and issue a penalty fare. I explained what had happened and what I had told and he said he would issue it and I could appeal. He mentioned a number of times that I should appeal the penalty fare.

The final frustration is that even the 'actual fare' part of the penalty fare is more than I paid on Trainline in the first place as I have a Disabled Person's Railcard that wasn't applied! Not much money but makes it that bit worse!

I am obviously upset as this was a genuine mistake and one that I most definitely won't make again. I live by 'doing the right thing' and would never consider avoiding paying for anything!

It will be really helpful to have advice on appealing.

Thank you!

 

[glasgowniteowl]

You ve mentioned needing help to collect the ticket at the destination station, coupled with also saying not seeing the ticket office, machine or member of staff at starting station and also with having the disabled persons railcard, did your disability play any part in you not being able to collect your ticket prior to travel?

 

[Unicorn52]

Hello, thank you for the quick reply.

My disability didn't play a part in not being able to collect the ticket. I walked into the station at Waterloo and back out (after receiving the penalty fare!) at Central.

Sorry for any confusion, when I said help I meant as in actually letting me through to get to the machine (and I assumed maybe following/watching me to make sure I did actually do that).

 

[Danberto]

What time did you arrive at the station?
It appears that according to both Merseyrail & Trainline amongst other things, facilities include a ticket office and a ticket machine. The plan of the station indicates that the ticket office is to the left of the stairs leading to the platform. Both the ticket office and stairs are accessed via the main entrance on South Road.

I ask the above because I would expect that the person overseeing the appeals process would want to know why 'when you entered the station and realised you held a ticket collection code and not a QR ticket' you didn't go back to the entrance to see if you could locate the ticket machine.

Unfortunately when you boarded the train you were not holding a valid ticket and so an offence was committed.

I don't know why the ticket collector (guard?) didn't issue a penalty fare as per Merseyrail's policy. Perhaps he was not authorised to do so, perhaps he was doing you a 'favour'. From what you said you only had his 'verbal permission to travel' (no documentation) and whilst it would be possible to trace him/her they may deny having said this or state 'they cannot remember'. Having said this there may well be someone coming along on this forum who knows more about issues such as this and state something different.

I would suspect that any appeals process would first of all require you to give valid reasons for not printing out the Trainline ticket. Only after getting over this hurdle would the matter of the actions of the ticket collector come into play.

EDIT: When I originally posted, I couldn't find the plan. Subsequently I did and so edited the post.

 

[Unicorn52]

Thank you.

I arrived at the station around 17:51, the train arrived whilst I was stood on the platform and I hadn't been able to see somewhere to collect the ticket. Knowing not every station has a ticket machine and having seen tickets issued on the train before is what made me make the decision to get on.

I also saw that those websites state there is a ticket machine there, Trainline says there isn't (obviously I hadn't checked previously as I thought I was buying a QR ticket).

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Thank you.

I arrived at the station around 17:51, the train arrived whilst I was stood on the platform and I hadn't been able to see somewhere to collect the ticket. Knowing not every station has a ticket machine and having seen tickets issued on the train before is what made me make the decision to get on.

I also saw that those websites state there is a ticket machine there, Trainline says there isn't (obviously I hadn't checked previously as I thought I was buying a QR ticket).

To clarify the position at Waterloo station:

@Danberto ‘s speculation above is correct: the ticket hall is at the top of the stairs, on the left (as you head down). I’ve never had any problem finding it, although I suppose someone arriving at the station from the west (towards the waterfront/past Iceland) might be able to head down the stairs without noticing it.

In terms of collecting a ticket, the ticket machine is an irrelevance: uniquely, Merseyrail machines will not let you collect pre-booked tickets - you have to do that at the staffed counter.

As to your chances with an appeal, from what we see here Merseyrail do routinely issue penalty fares for people trying to travel on their collection codes rather than having picked up the ticket. Having said which they have also been known to proceed to prosecution when there are no grounds to do so.

As is often the case, much depends on your appetite for an argument, and how much your time is worth to you. The easiest way to make this issue go away is to pay up and not appeal: but this may be a matter of principle to you, or it could be that you are time rich but cash poor and so are willing to face the hassle of fighting an appeal.

 

[Danberto]

Hello,

Apologies, the trainline website states "there is no ticket office at Waterloo". The Merseyrail site states there is a 'ticket office window' and also that the 'Passenger Assist Meeting Point' is the 'Booking Office'. (Perhaps the 'Booking Office' is the same as the 'ticket office window').

As you arrived before 18:00, it is probable that there would have been staff at the ticket office window/booking office. We do not of course know this for sure without being able to see the published opening times for the 'ticket office'.

 

[wilbers]

Liverpool Waterloo Train Station | Find Station Info | Trainline

Find information on Waterloo (Merseyside) including live departure boards, station information and cheap train tickets with Trainline.

www.thetrainline.com

Curiously it says "staff help :unavailable" AND "staffing level : the staff is available at all times". Also says pre-purchase unavailable.

Surely trainline saying that there is no ticket office (when there is one) must be grounds for appeal, and something they would then fix shortly afterwards? If they said it has to be collected from a ticket office, then relying on the information on their website you would naturally collect it at the destination if you didn't know otherwise.

also says "ticket machines are available to purchase or collect tickets from" which if post #6 is correct you couldn't have done.

 

[fandroid]

If thinking of an appeal make sure all that Trainline website misinformation is recorded (and dated).

 

[Danberto]

According to this news article, it appears that there have been other cases.Liverpool Echo story

Unfortunately, the news story states that the penalty appeal was not successful.

 

[island]

Unfortunately where a paper ticket has been chosen (or is the only offered option) tickets need to be collected prior to boarding the train. There is no evidence to suggest there were no operable ticketing facilities at the station where the journey commenced, so the passenger committed an offence the moment they stepped onto the train.

The final frustration is that even the 'actual fare' part of the penalty fare is more than I paid on Trainline in the first place as I have a Disabled Person's Railcard that wasn't applied! Not much money but makes it that bit worse!

The legislation does not allow for Railcard discounts to be applied to the fare component of a Penalty Fare.

 

[wilbers]

Current version of trainline's page now stored in case the OP needs it https://web.archive.org/save/https://www.thetrainline.com/stations/waterloo-merseyside

Hopefully a forum expert will be along soon to give input on what is in the link in post #10, but an alternative possibility would be to try and claim the amount of the penalty fare from trainline if they have effectively sold an unusable ticket (again taking into consideration that information on their website about the ticket office is wrong).

 

[JBuchananGB]

@Unicorn52 has learnt a hard lesson, which visitors to Merseyside can easily fall into. First, that e-Tickets are never issued for travel on MerseyRail. Any tickets for MerseyRail bought online from TrainLine or anyone else can only be fulfilled as Credit Card Sized Tickets (CCSTs) by Ticket On Departure (TOD). Second that MerseyRail Ticket machines do not support the collection of tickets purchased online. Third that such tickets can be issued by MerseyRail ticket offices, which are open extended hours.
A further complication is that online ticket sellers do not sell the most commonly used Off-Peak Ticket on MerseyRail, namely the DaySaver. This can only be bought as a (unique to MerseyRail) online ticket, or at a ticket office, and no railcard discounts are available. However, in this case for this very short journey, the discounted Anytime Day Return at £3.00 is cheaper than a DaySaver. There is a £2.95 fare available but that involves some black magic.
This Notice was snapped a couple of years ago, before MerseyRail started allowing TOD tickets to be collected from their ticket counters, but apart from that change, everything else still stands.

 

[Unicorn52]

Thank you all for your kind advice and time!

It certainly feels like a very unfortunate situation. As it looks like most of you have guessed, I was visiting the area and expected the booking process to be like the rest of the country (or as far as I've experienced!), initially in thinking I'd have a QR code ticket and then defaulting to look for a machine over a counter.

I guess it just feels frustrating and deflating considering the battle to do the right thing and use the awkward and expensive (at best) railway network over driving and then be rewarded with a big penalty for a tiny journey. I'd actually been in the area doing a beach clean, that's what you get for trying to save the planet ha! Anyway, that's me venting. I did get £8 back from delay repay for my journey to the north...

Thank you for the information regarding the railcars discount on the fare part of the penalty, the inspector(?) told me I should have told him before and it would have been applied and then to mention it in the appeal... maybe noone is clear on what's going on!

Appealing isn't about the argument as such but I do really value fairness and balance! And I found it odd how adamant the inspector(?) was that I should appeal.

 

[furlong]

Definitely appeal, pointing out, as quoted, thetrainline website which you used, an accredited retailer, stated that tickets could be collected from the ticket machine at that station, a contractual term upon which you relied, and that you should suffer no consequence from the train company's contractual breach in its failure to provide that facility? Additionally mention the permission you were given to collect the ticket later. Two separate grounds for appeal.

 

[Unicorn52]

Hi everyone, thanks for your help.

I submitted an appeal last week. I'll let you know when I hear back!

 

[Unicorn52]

Hello, I submitted the appeal on 22 September and received an email this week saying that assessments are taking longer than usual. Sunday will be 21 days since I received the penalty fare. Any idea on clarity that time is paused whilst the appeal is being assessed? I think I read this...!

 

[skyhigh]

Any idea on clarity that time is paused whilst the appeal is being assessed? I think I read this...!

Yes the time is frozen while an appeal is being decided.

 

[Unicorn52]

Thank you!

 

[MrJeeves]

Any idea on clarity that time is paused whilst the appeal is being assessed? I think I read this...!

Indeed, from the day you submit the appeal, the countdown to pay the reduced amount is paused until the day you hear back from the appeals process.

 

[Unicorn52]

Hello!

Very interesting debate. I have skimmed through but will leave that for you experts...!

Yes, appeal was received on 22nd so Friday will be the 3 week anniversary.

I'm imagining that it will miraculously be decided on Thursday

 

[Hadders]

Moderator Note:
So that we stay on topic in this thread I have split discussion on Penalty Fare Apppeal Timeframes into a separate thread:

Discussion on Penalty Fare Appeal Timeframes

Moderator Note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/penalty-fare-appeal.254705/ The appeals panel MUST decide the appeal within 21 days. It does not have any ability to take longer. If it doesn't make its decision within 21 days, then later attempts to make you pay, you should...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Unicorn52]

Hi everyone,

Not quite Thursday and my appeal was unfortunately rejected.

I'm still upset that they operate like this and it seems like there are worse ways they treat passengers. Sad when we should be doing everything that we can as a country to encourage public transport use.

Anyway, here's the letter for your interest!

 

[gray1404]

I would certainly appeal again and make them aware of your disability too. The third appeal panel is the only one that is truly independent and looks truly at any mitigating circumstances so take it through to the third appeal.

You need to make it clear that you were given permission to travel by an authorised person on the train.

I would also argue that Merseyrail have not abided by their own disabled persons protection policy.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Hi everyone,

Not quite Thursday and my appeal was unfortunately rejected.

I'm still upset that they operate like this and it seems like there are worse ways they treat passengers. Sad when we should be doing everything that we can as a country to encourage public transport use.

Anyway, here's the letter for your interest!

You need to do something with the PDF file, when it loaded I could briefly see your name and address before the black splurge overlaid it, and when I looked more closely all the black redaction splodges can be moved to reveal what's underneath

 

[Unicorn52]

You need to do something with the PDF file, when it loaded I could briefly see your name and address before the black splurge overlaid it, and when I looked more closely all the black redaction splodges can be moved to reveal what's underneath

Thank you! I've removed it for now as I don't have time to do anything else with it

 

[John Palmer]

I would certainly lodge a second stage appeal against the penalty fare, adopting the grounds suggested by @furlong in post #15 if your first stage appeal didn't already mention these. I would support the further appeal with a screenshot of Trainline's web page at https://www.thetrainline.com/stations/waterloo-merseyside, drawing the appeal panel's particular attention to the statement on that page that "There is no ticket office at Waterloo (Merseyside) station, ticket machines are available to purchase or collect tickets from." What has happened here is that Trainline, in its capacity as agent selling tickets on behalf of the operator that issued the penalty fare, has misrepresented the facilities made available by that operator for collection of those tickets. It's unconscionable for Merseyrail, as Trainline's principal, to benefit from a penalty imposed in circumstances that may have been brought about by misleading and incorrect information about the availability of ticket collection facilities put out by its agent. It is a twofold error on Trainline's part, as its web page induces a belief that a ticket office is not available when in fact it is, and that a ToD collection facility is available when it's not. In the statement setting out your appeal you should also make it clear that, for the purposes of Regulation 16(3) of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, this is a compelling reason why, in the particular circumstances of the case, you should not be liable to pay the penalty fare.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

It is a twofold error on Trainline's part, as its web page induces a belief that a ticket office is not available when in fact it is, and that a ToD collection facility is available when it's not.

Although in this particular case, two wrongs do in fact make a right. It's untrue that there is no ticket office, and it's untrue that there's a ticket machine to collect tickets from. But while it's not stated, there is an opportunity to collect a ticket from the ticket office, and Merseyrail offices are generally staffed throughout service (albeit that the staff may be called away to perform other duties around the station, so there isn't an absolute guarantee that there will be someone there to provide ToD services).

But it seems to me that the argument that there wasn't the stated opportunity to collect a ticket is not guaranteed to succeed. While the Trainline may have got the details wrong, they managed to get the key point (that a ticket could be collected) right.

 

[John Palmer]

Although in this particular case, two wrongs do in fact make a right. It's untrue that there is no ticket office, and it's untrue that there's a ticket machine to collect tickets from. But while it's not stated, there is an opportunity to collect a ticket from the ticket office, and Merseyrail offices are generally staffed throughout service (albeit that the staff may be called away to perform other duties around the station, so there isn't an absolute guarantee that there will be someone there to provide ToD services).

But it seems to me that the argument that there wasn't the stated opportunity to collect a ticket is not guaranteed to succeed. While the Trainline may have got the details wrong, they managed to get the key point (that a ticket could be collected) right.

Having seen the quality of some of Penalty Services' decision making, I'm inclined to think that no argument is guaranteed to succeed!

Look at it from the viewpoint of a Trainline customer unfamiliar with the available facilities at Waterloo. She's told by Trainline's web page that there is no ticket office at the station. Consequently there is no reason for her to look for one. She's told instead that she can collect tickets from a machine. Evidently the OP didn't see the machine in this case, but that makes no difference as it wouldn't have disgorged the ticket anyway. In this case the two pieces of wrong information fail completely to communicate that there is an available means for collecting a ticket - all they do is confuse and mislead.

 

[gray1404]

Also to add each time to appeal it stops the clock on the time limit to pay the reduced amount so do keep an eye on this.