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2023 Israel - Hamas / Hezbollah war

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hst43102

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Very true. Hamas of course are following that grand old tradition of 'kill all the jews'. Hamas are so clear on their aim 'to rid all of historic Palestine of jews', unfortunately that's a clear declaration that many anti Israeli people/Palestinian supporters seem to decide not to look at. Whatever concessions Israel made, Hamas would still want them dead, that's literally their whole point as an organisation.
Their aims go further than just removing the Jews from Palestine. According to the Hamas Charter, Jewish people are planning to take over the world and calls for genocide of the Jews across the entire world, stating that this is the individual duty of every Muslim.
When people in the west are stating whataboutisms about Israel every time Hamas atrocities are brought up, calling the state of Israel genocidal, and blatantly posting #FreePalestine everywhere, they are indirectly supporting an organisation with the primary purpose of global genocide. The equivalent of Trump's "good people on both sides"...
They need to comply with international law and UN resolutions.
I cannot agree more with this, but how is it fair to insist that Israel comply to every single international regulation and UN resolution, but turn a blind eye to the brutality and murder, along with absolutely criminal neglect of the civilians in Gaza by Hamas? Why should Israel be held to a much higher standard than literally every other country in the history of warfare, including the US and UK, which are currently undergoing investigation into war crimes in Afghanistan?
 
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Bluejays

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This is just ridiculous, it's difficult to have sensible debate with you if you're not taking the point seriously. Lots of alternative courses for the government were being pur forward by the opposition, including through protests against Likud and the refusal of some reservists to report for duty. I put some of these in #195 but there's a lot more that could be done.
Reservists who have of course now returned to duty, because they have witnessed an absolutely barbaric attack against their country. I'm 100% behind the Israeli opposition, but there's very little political change that could have been made that would stop Hamas wanting to murder Jews.
 

birchesgreen

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I think its easier to talk about showing restraint and complying with all international laws and resolutions when you don't have thousands of well armed terrorists 20-30km away who seek your death.
 

Butts

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I think its easier to talk about showing restraint and complying with all international laws and resolutions when you don't have thousands of well armed terrorists 20-30km away who seek your death.

Especially as Hamas have no intention of adhering to any such niceties - They make The Taliban appear restrained in comparison.
 

Yew

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I cannot agree more with this, but how is it fair to insist that Israel comply to every single international regulation and UN resolution, but turn a blind eye to the brutality and murder, along with absolutely criminal neglect of the civilians in Gaza by Hamas?
Has anyone actually suggested that?
Why should Israel be held to a much higher standard than literally every other country in the history of warfare, including the US and UK, which are currently undergoing investigation into war crimes in Afghanistan?
Has anyone suggested we hold Israel to a higher standard, it seems like most people are simply suggesting that Israel should commit war crimes.
 

Bluejays

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The details of the barbarity of some of these attacks is quite chilling. Some of the BBC reports about what happened at kfar aza make you question humanity.

It may be sick, and it certainly is my anger talking. But I sincerely hope the commanders and politicians responsible for security in the Gaza border area are made to watch every single video, before being sacked, relieved of their pensions and publicly outed. Israel has the manpower and the kit to have repelled that attack. The soldiers stationed in that area must be absolutely gutted that they weren't given intelligence and warning of that atta k coming.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I was informed by a district nurse at the clinic that I attended this morning that Hamas are reported to have beheaded some women and children in one of the Israeli settlements. Only just back home and logged on and ask if any website members anything about this matter and the name of the settlement.
 

Bluejays

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I was informed by a district nurse at the clinic that I attended this morning that Hamas are reported to have beheaded some women and children in one of the Israeli settlements. Only just back home and logged on and ask if any website members anything about this matter and the name of the settlement.
Kfar aza I believe. BBC website had a report yesterday evening on it that should still be on the website. It was the kibbutz that could finally entered by Israeli troops and emergency workers yesterday, that led to them revising the Israeli death toll upward by just over 200. The last I saw, the BBC fact check had said they couldn't verify the beheaded babies but had been able to verify the number of casualties

Edit: tried to link the article but can't get the text through properly
 
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brad465

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Marina Hyde did a good opinion piece I think about how this conflict has further exposed Musk being unfit to run X, as misinformation has surged and gets in the way of the truth even more, and certain accounts who spread offensive messaging have raised profile (he recommended an account for war updates that also spread antisemitism in some of its posts):


Way back in the mid-1990s, back when UK cable TV was considered new media, the notorious former Sun editor Kelvin MacKenzie was launch boss for a rolling station called Live TV. The channel’s offering was an eclectic mix of neuron-slaughtering dross, to put it kindly, including Topless Darts, the News Bunny – a giant rabbit who stood behind the newsreader and emoted according to the story being read out – and Tiffani’s Big City Tips, wherein a model stripped to her underwear while telling you where to invest (in rival telly companies, would seem to be the short answer). A guy who’d played an Oompa Loompa in Willy Wonka & The Chocolate Factory did the weather forecast while bouncing on a trampoline.

Looking back, it does sound quite like some of the worst bits of modern life online, or perhaps the best bits, depending on your view. But it quickly turned to **** – again, quite like some of modern life online – and the ill-suited and vindictive MacKenzie hit on a ruse for cutting costs and amusing himself at the same time. He would walk in to the studio or production gallery and fire someone at random. If this summary loss of personnel did not appear to affect the live broadcast happening at the time – if it contrived to stay rolling, one way or another – then he’d regard the financial saving as well made. How important, really, could that person actually have been?

I thought quite often about this story last year when X owner Elon Musk bought what was then called Twitter, and promptly fired most of the teams that had fought disinformation. As you’ll have noticed, the platform stayed rolling. But it was a Faustian deal (or more accurately a Faustian severance deal), and the scale of what is being collected on could not have been clearer in the hours and days since the Hamas-perpetrated atrocity in Israel on Saturday.

For more than a decade, Twitter was an absolutely key resource for understanding major world events and disasters in real time. Open-source reporters and investigators pieced together the picture on the ground from primary sources and verified content. I’m calling it Twitter in this instance, because that was then. X is something different, although I’m sure we’re all on tenterhooks for its vaunted transformation into the everything app/surveillance capitalism dreamscape humanity deserves.

As numerous information specialists have pointed out in recent days, the platform now offers a forest of disinformation so dense that penetrating it has become extremely difficult. Justin Peden, an open-source intelligence researcher who found the platform valuable when covering the 2021 Gaza escalation, told Wired this weekend that it was currently almost impossible to reach the useful information. X users now pay for blue ticks, and those who do have their posts algorithmically promoted. Last weekend, such viral posts included Algerian firework celebrations being sold as Israeli attacks on Hamas, Arma 3 video game footage being presented as a Hamas attack, years-old videos from the Syrian conflict cast as contemporaneous attacks on Tel Aviv airport, and an entirely fake photo of Cristiano Ronaldo holding the Palestinian flag posted by an account that poses as a blue-tick BBC journalist.

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The EU have also warned Musk about disinformation on X in relation to this conflict as well:


The EU has warned Elon Musk that X is being used to spread "disinformation" after Hamas' attack on Israel.
In a post on the site formerly known as Twitter, the bloc's industry chief said "violent and terrorist content" had not been taken down, despite warnings - as is required by EU law.
Mr Musk said his company had taken action, including by removing newly-created Hamas-affiliated accounts.
He asked the EU to list the alleged violations.
Thierry Breton, Commissioner for the Internal Market of the European Union, did not give details on the disinformation he was referring to in his letter to Mr Musk.
However, he said that instances of "fake and manipulated images and facts" were widely reported on the social media platform.
"I therefore invite you to urgently ensure that your systems are effective, and report on the crisis measures taken to my team," he wrote in his letter which he shared on social media.
His letter comes days after the Palestinian militant group Hamas launched an attack on Israel, killing hundreds of residents and taking dozens of hostages.
In response, Israeli forces have launched waves of missile strikes on Gaza which have killed more than 900 people.
In his response on X, Mr Musk said: "Our policy is that everything is open and transparent, an approach that I know the EU supports.
"Please list the violations you allude to on X, so that the public can see them."
Mr Breton said that Mr Musk was "well aware of your users' - and authorities' - reports on fake content and glorification of violence", adding that it was up to him to "demonstrate that you walk the talk".
The EU Digital Services Act (DSA) is designed to protect users of big tech platforms.
It became law last November but firms were given time to make sure their systems complied.
On 25 April, the commission named the very large online platforms - those with over 45 million EU users - that would be subject to the toughest rules, among them X. The law came into effect four months later in August.
Under the tougher rules, larger firms have to assess potential risks they may cause, report that assessment and put in place measures to deal with the problem.
Failure to comply with the DSA can result in EU fines of as much as 6% of a company's global turnover, or potentially suspension of the service.
Mr Musk dissolved Twitter's Trust and Safety Council shortly after acquiring the company in 2022. Formed in 2016, the volunteer council contained about 100 independent groups who advised on issues such as self-harm, child abuse and hate speech.
 
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GS250

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I was informed by a district nurse at the clinic that I attended this morning that Hamas are reported to have beheaded some women and children in one of the Israeli settlements. Only just back home and logged on and ask if any website members anything about this matter and the name of the settlement.

Have seen no evidence thus far but now reports of Babies being beheaded. I guess whether you are bombed, shot, burned, gassed, crushed, beheaded is ultimately irrelevant. However there's something particularly barbaric about beheading.

Hopefully a lot of naive Westerners who have supported Hammas will now review their position. However, what I saw in Kensington the other night would suggest there's plenty of people who's blind devotion to their religion and 'cause' will not.
 

Meerkat

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Indeed. The building is definitely, unarguably, the home of hundreds of non-combatants. It may in addition be used by some of the militants. Surely everyone is in agreement on that?
That’s a big assumption. Could as easily assume it’s a Hamas barracks with a communications and EW node on the roof.
Indeed. That's precisely why it's so obvious these are crimes - the force is beyond all possible proportion.
How have you decided that? It’s probably less destructive than a ground operation.
Sure. Maybe. But they've killed thousands of unarmed non-combatants, frequently without allowing adequate time to evacuate, without there being anywhere for them to evacuate to, or in some cases without any prior warning being delivered at all.
Have they?
However, if it were always proportionate the number of unarmed non-combatants killed by the blasts would be near zero.
That’s not how proportionate works
Sadly, yes, they do. So is the proportionate and reasonable thing to do in response to that a) to continue destroying Gaza building by building, sacrificing thousands of unarmed non-combatants or b) to tackle the extremism at its root cause while cutting off its support among the general population? Which option is likely to be the more effective in the long run?
b) would involve the Jews leaving Israel.
Wars stop when both sides realise they can’t win. Allowing Hamas to perpetrate such acts without response, or by responding with concessions, does not achieve that.
 

Starmill

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how is it fair to insist that Israel comply to every single international regulation and UN resolution, but turn a blind eye to the brutality and murder, along with absolutely criminal neglect of the civilians in Gaza by Hamas?

I don't think people in this thread have said anything that would imply that. Hamas aren't state actors, and unfortunately they can't really be reasoned with as others have pointed out. However, there aren't very many of them, there are almost none outside Gaza and inside there are perhaps a couple of tens of thousands, from a population of 2.3 million.

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That’s a big assumption. Could as easily assume it’s a Hamas barracks with a communications and EW node on the roof.
OK - but if that were correct there'd not have been 900 Palestinian civilians killed in a few says by the bombings would there?

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How have you decided that? It’s probably less destructive than a ground operation.
Because the targets are known to be people's homes and businesses, the Israeli command know that but still see it as reasonable to target them.

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Have they?
Yes.

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That’s not how proportionate works
It sure is. It's not proportionate to destroy an entire building or city block simply to kill a small handful of enemy fighters. Several hundred Palestinian children have been killed by Netanyahu's bombs - are you saying he doesn't realise that? It’s also not proportionate to block supplies if staple foods - starvation of a large civilian population is now being used as a weapon, again a war crime.

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b) would involve the Jews leaving Israel.
Again plainly false. A settlement wouldn't be on Hamas' terms because Hamas aren't a state or government. Nobody is arguing in this thread that the Israeli population should leave Israel completely, that the state doesn't have a right to exist, or anything similar.
 
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Meerkat

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I don't think people in this thread have said anything that would imply that. Hamas aren't state actors, and unfortunately they can't really be reasoned with as others have pointed out. However, there aren't very many of them, there are almost none outside Gaza and inside there are perhaps a couple of tens of thousands, from a population of 2.3 million.
Actually Hamas are effectively state actors, as they were elected to govern Gaza.
OK - but if that were correct there'd not have been 900 Palestinian civilians killed in a few says by the bombings would there?
Whose numbers are those?
Even if that is valid, considering the huge amount of ordnance that has hit Gaza that would be remarkably low (whilst still tragic), demonstrating that the intent is not to kill civilians.
Hopefully third parties will negotiate something that gives the Israelis enough to cease the bombings and not go in on the ground (which will creat huge destruction and death). Unfortunately I think that means returning all the hostages and I am not sure Hamas will be prepared to do that.
 

Starmill

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Allowing Hamas to perpetrate such acts without response, or by responding with concessions, does not achieve that.
And if you escalate a conflict deliberately, as Likud have been doing, you cause more loss of life.

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Actually Hamas are effectively state actors, as they were elected to govern Gaza.
Nice try. The people living in Gaza are stateless. Whose fault is that? Theirs?
 

Bluejays

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I don't think people in this thread have said anything that would imply that. Hamas aren't state actors, and unfortunately they can't really be reasoned with as others have pointed out. However, there aren't very many of them, there are almost none outside Gaza and inside there are perhaps a couple of tens of thousands, from a population of 2.3 million.

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OK - but if that were correct there'd not have been 900 Palestinian civilians killed in a few says by the bombings would there?

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Because the targets are known to be people's homes and businesses, the Israeli command know that but still see it as reasonable to target them.

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Yes.

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It sure is. It's not proportionate to destroy an entire building or city block simply to kill a small handful of enemy fighters. Several hundred Palestinian children have been killed by Netanyahu's bombs - are you saying he doesn't realise that? It’s also not proportionate to block supplies if staple foods - starvation of a large civilian population is now being used as a weapon, again a war crime.

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Again plainly false. A settlement wouldn't be on Hamas' terms because Hamas aren't a state or government. Nobody is arguing in this thread that the Israeli population should leave Israel completely, that the state doesn't have a right to exist, or anything similar.
I think it would be fair to say that hamas essentially are the government of Gaza. I think it's also fair to suggest that the main reason Abbas hasn't held elections in the west bank for years, is because he thinks Hamas would have won those aswell.
 

Starmill

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Even if that is valid, considering the huge amount of ordnance that has hit Gaza that would be remarkably low
So you admit that the use of force is entirely disproportionate then?

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I think it would be fair to say that hamas essentially are the government of Gaza. I think it's also fair to suggest that the main reason Abbas hasn't held elections in the west bank for years, is because he thinks Hamas would have won those aswell.
Violet gangs do tend to cease control in places which lack democratic and social structures of their own, yes. Unfortunately that's precisely what's happened here. Now why might it be that the people living in Gaza haven't more successfully built their own democratic and social structures?
 

Bluejays

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So you admit that the use of force is entirely disproportionate then?

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Violet gangs do tend to cease control in places which lack democratic and social structures of their own, yes. Unfortunately that's precisely what's happened here. Now why might it be that the people living in Gaza haven't built their own democratic and social structures?
I don't entirely disagree with where you're coming from.
But they didn't have to seize control in Gaza, they won power at the ballot box (although admittedly there were also some bloody battles with Fatah afterwards) .

As for no social structures, I think there are more than you're willing to admit. You can't govern nearly 3million people without having structures in place. There's a police force, heath ministry, ministry for agriculture etc, all the structures that you'd see anywhere else.

In fact that was one of the hopes many people(including myself) had, that as Hamas as an organisation were drawn into the minutiae of governing they would as a result lose some of their militant leanings. Unfortunately those of us who thought that have been shown to be a wee bit naive.
 

Noddy

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I was informed by a district nurse at the clinic that I attended this morning that Hamas are reported to have beheaded some women and children in one of the Israeli settlements. Only just back home and logged on and ask if any website members anything about this matter and the name of the settlement.

Yes it was reported in the BBC (Jeremy Bowen) that beheadings had taken place but it doesn’t mention children and although it directly describes a woman, it’s pretty clear from the article that that this has come from the Army, and has not been directly verified by the BBC. Jeremy Bowen describes asking not to have the blankets removed from the bodies. I’ve quoted the start of the article here and linked to it below.


Warning: This article contains details that some readers may find disturbing. Kibbutz Kfar Aza is a microcosm of the first few days of this war, and also a glimpse of what might come next.
Until Tuesday morning, fighting was still going on in the kibbutz, which is one of the Israeli communities along the border with Gaza. That's why only now are they collecting the bodies of its Israeli residents who were killed when Hamas broke through the border wire from Gaza early on Saturday morning.
Soldiers who spent much of the day in the ruins recovering bodies of civilians said that there had been a massacre. It seems likely that much of the killing happened in the first hours of the assault on Saturday.
The Israeli army, caught off guard, took 12 hours to get to the kibbutz, said Davidi Ben Zion, the deputy commander of Unit 71, an experienced team of paratroopers who led the assault.
Continues…

 
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Starmill

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I don't entirely disagree with where you're coming from.
But they didn't have to seize control in Gaza, they won power at the ballot box (although admittedly there were also some bloody battles with Fatah afterwards) .

As for no social structures, I think there are more than you're willing to admit. You can't govern nearly 3million people without having structures in place. There's a police force, heath ministry, ministry for agriculture etc, all the structures that you'd see anywhere else.

In fact that was one of the hopes many people(including myself) had, that as Hamas as an organisation were drawn into the minutiae of governing they would as a result lose some of their militant leanings. Unfortunately those of us who thought that have been shown to be a wee bit naive.
Sure - but those informal structures existing at the behest of Hamas, and being run partly by Hamas, hardly means what Meerkat and others are trying to imply, which is that any Gazans who use those structures have signed up to religious persecution of Jews, and the beliefs that the state of Israel has no right to exist, and its people no right to life. It simply means that they have nowhere else to go, quite literally, and are living their lives as best they can around ever-present violent extremism.
 

Bluejays

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Sure - but those informal structures existing at the behest of Hamas, and being run partly by Hamas, hardly means what Meerkat and others are trying to imply, which is that any Gazans who use those structures have signed up to religious persecution of Jews, and the beliefs that the state of Israel has no right to exist, and its people no right to life. It simply means that they have nowhere else to go, quite literally, and are living their lives as best they can around ever-present violent extremism.
I may be guilty of skim reading a bit of the earlier exchange in that case, because I agree with that. It's certainly not a good time to be Gazan.

I suppose even though it's unpalatable, it's also important for people to remember that there's a difference between those who profess support and those who commited the atrocities. As has been shown around the world, the attitudes of even some of the most hardcore can change when given a more positive option.
 

hst43102

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I've just seen this article (admittedly I can only find it on Israeli media and the Daily Mail) in which one of the Hamas leaders, Mahmoud al-Zahar, states:
“We believe in what our Prophet Muhammad said: “Allah drew the ends of the world near one another for my sake, and I have seen its eastern and western ends. The dominion of my nation would reach those ends that have been drawn near me,"
“The entire 510 million square kilometers of Planet Earth will come under [a system] where there is no injustice, no oppression, no Zionism, no treacherous Christianity and no killings and crimes like those being committed against the Palestinians, and against the Arabs in all the Arab countries, in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and other countries," he said.
This was said in December 2022, and it is worth noting as part of the context as to the organisation being dealt with here. This is not a pro-Palestinian movement simply caused by decades of oppression, it is a full-on jihadist organisation with the end goal of world domination - not dissimilar to the goals of ISIS.
 

renegademaster

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On the point of "where else are Hamas meant to fight from" response to human shield accusations, Gaza while densely populated *does* have agricultural land. It would put Hamas at a strategic disadvantage , but that's what not doing war crimes tends to do
 

Bluejays

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This is not a pro-Palestinian movement simply caused by decades of oppression, it is a full-on jihadist organisation with the end goal of world domination - not dissimilar to the goals of ISIS.
Very true, although it would also be fair to say that oppression and the feeling of no hope are extremely good recruiting tools for organisations like this. There's a reason they are bigger in places like Palestine than in the UK. I hope Israel destroys Hamas as much as possible. But part of a long term solution has to require giving the Palestinians a place of their own and hope of a decent life for them and their kids. It's the moral thing to do number 1, but it's also the best idea for Israel's long term safety and viability.

The ravings of khameini et al are likely to have much less effect on someone with a nice house who goes on 2 holidays a year, than on someone with no hope, no job and no prospects
 
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Starmill

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I've just seen this article (admittedly I can only find it on Israeli media and the Daily Mail) in which one of the Hamas leaders, Mahmoud al-Zahar, states:

This was said in December 2022, and it is worth noting as part of the context as to the organisation being dealt with here. This is not a pro-Palestinian movement simply caused by decades of oppression, it is a full-on jihadist organisation with the end goal of world domination - not dissimilar to the goals of ISIS.
Indeed. In a way they're causing almost as much harm to the Gazans in particular as the Netanyahu government has. They've found effective ways to weaponise the pain of oppression and poverty that nearly all Palestinians feel, and build it up into the full-blown following of a violent ideology.
 

hst43102

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Very true, although it would also be fair to say that oppression and the feeling of no hope are extremely good recruiting tools for organisations like this. There's a reason they are bigger in places like Palestine than in the UK. I hope Israel destroys Hamas as much as possible. But part of a long term solution has to require giving the Palestinians a place of their own and hope of a decent life for them and their kids. It's the moral thing to do number 1, but it's also the best idea for Israel's long term safety and viability.

The ravings of khameini et al are likely to have much less effect on someone with a nice house who goes on 2 holidays a year, than on someone with no hope, no job and no prospects
I absolutely agree, terrorist organisations always recruit in places with lots of younger people with no hope for life - just see the early days of the Troubles, IRA support was strongest in the poorer parts of Belfast and Derry. I completely agree with you on the point about a long term solution, realistically a two state solution is the only way a peaceful resolution can be achieved, sadly this is probably a long time into the future after the events of this week.
Indeed. In a way they're causing almost as much harm to the Gazans in particular as the Netanyahu government has. They've found effective ways to weaponise the pain of oppression and poverty that nearly all Palestinians feel, and build it up into the full-blown following of a violent ideology.
Absolutely, part of the reason the humanitarian crisis is so severe is that the Gazan population is so deep in this pain of oppression that they are willing to allow Hamas access to residential areas and the use of civilian infrastructure as military installations. I have no doubt that there is some force involved as well, but largely it appears that the population of the city are supportive of the terrorist leadership. It's a very very messy and incredibly sad situation all around.

---

I can't help but continue to be disgusted and amazed at the amount of support for the atrocities from people in the west. For example this post from Black Lives Matter in Chicago - again, a group in which I can sympathize with and support their aims of creating a less racist society, but how such an organisation can be in support of an incredibly racist jihadist group with the clear and stated aim of genocide is completely beyond me.
Likewise the events in London, hundreds of people marching and calling for sanctions on Israel and vague chants to "free Palestine" - how does this fit with the context of the last few days? It is absolutely appalling how such people can be given a platform in our society.
 

Bluejays

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---

I can't help but continue to be disgusted and amazed at the amount of support for the atrocities from people in the west. For example this post from Black Lives Matter in Chicago - again, a group in which I can sympathize with and support their aims of creating a less racist society, but how such an organisation can be in support of an incredibly racist jihadist group with the clear and stated aim of genocide is completely beyond me.
Likewise the events in London, hundreds of people marching and calling for sanctions on Israel and vague chants to "free Palestine" - how does this fit with the context of the last few days? It is absolutely appalling how such people can be given a platform in our society.
Shocking behaviour. That BLM Chicago post is vile. It always riles me even more that you just know they felt so righteous and progressive when posting. Despite the fact that they are posting rancid, hate filled filth.
 

birchesgreen

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Anyway the leader of HAMAS (from his nice apartment in Doha natch) has called for muslims around the world to wage jihad (in various ways) including a day of rage worldwide on friday. Terrific.
 

Bluejays

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Anyway the leader of HAMAS (from his nice apartment in Doha natch) has called for muslims around the world to wage jihad (in various ways) including a day of rage worldwide on friday. Terrific.
He obviously knows nothing about us lot in the west. Friday's a happy day. Now if he said the day of rage started at 9am on a Monday morning he may have had a few more takers :lol:


If he keeps making pronouncements like this, he may find his living arrangements change. Might have to swap that nice apartment for a lifestyle more akin to nasrallahs. That would be a shame !
 

Starmill

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Bolton
I absolutely agree, terrorist organisations always recruit in places with lots of younger people with no hope for life - just see the early days of the Troubles, IRA support was strongest in the poorer parts of Belfast and Derry. I completely agree with you on the point about a long term solution, realistically a two state solution is the only way a peaceful resolution can be achieved, sadly this is probably a long time into the future after the events of this week.

Absolutely, part of the reason the humanitarian crisis is so severe is that the Gazan population is so deep in this pain of oppression that they are willing to allow Hamas access to residential areas and the use of civilian infrastructure as military installations. I have no doubt that there is some force involved as well, but largely it appears that the population of the city are supportive of the terrorist leadership. It's a very very messy and incredibly sad situation all around.

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I can't help but continue to be disgusted and amazed at the amount of support for the atrocities from people in the west. For example this post from Black Lives Matter in Chicago - again, a group in which I can sympathize with and support their aims of creating a less racist society, but how such an organisation can be in support of an incredibly racist jihadist group with the clear and stated aim of genocide is completely beyond me.
Likewise the events in London, hundreds of people marching and calling for sanctions on Israel and vague chants to "free Palestine" - how does this fit with the context of the last few days? It is absolutely appalling how such people can be given a platform in our society.
It is very worrying that anyone sees anything at all to celebrate in these events. It's the worst news. I'm deeply concerned to see people giving in to tribalism and violent partisanship in this way. Nothing in this conflict is producing good outcomes for anyone.
 

birchesgreen

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He obviously knows nothing about us lot in the west. Friday's a happy day. Now if he said the day of rage started at 9am on a Monday morning he may have had a few more takers :lol:

If he keeps making pronouncements like this, he may find his living arrangements change. Might have to swap that nice apartment for a lifestyle more akin to nasrallahs. That would be a shame !
Well the last time there was some trouble in the area there was a huge disruptive pro-Palestinian protest in Birmingham stopping traffic at a major traffic junction. I know because i was stuck in it for ages. To be honest it had been pretty intimidating. The police were present but did FA as usual. :p
 
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