Merseyrail SJP form?

[jamesdb00]

Hi I was stopped at Sandhills just over 2 weeks ago and asked for a ticket I couldn't produce as I left it in work by mistake. I was asked for my details which I gave despite being told I don't live at my address and him telling me I live at another address I've never heard of and told I was given a warning. Now 18 days later I've received an sjp (single justice procedure form) asking for all kinds of details as well as a plea of guilty or not. Am I not within the 21 days stated in the website to pay a fine to avoid this? Thanks

 

[30907]

Hi I was stopped at Sandhills just over 2 weeks ago and asked for a ticket I couldn't produce as I left it in work by mistake. I was asked for my details which I gave despite being told I don't live at my address and him telling me I live at another address I've never heard of and told I was given a warning. Now 18 days later I've received an sjp (single justice procedure form) asking for all kinds of details as well as a plea of guilty or not. Am I not within the 21 days stated in the website to pay a fine to avoid this?

Did you receive a Penalty Fare at the time? The 21day provision refers to those.

 

[island]

You don't have an entitlement to "just pay a fine"; travelling without having a ticket on you is a criminal offence and Merseyrail (or Miseryrail as I like to call them) are within their rights to take you to court. You've got 21 days to respond to that, choosing between pleading guilty by post, pleading guilty but attending court in person to give mitigation, or pleading not guilty and attending court so that the court can decide if you're guilty or not.

What offence have you been charged with? Have you been in trouble for not having a ticket before?

 

[Huntergreed]

You don't have an entitlement to "just pay a fine"; travelling without having a ticket on you is a criminal offence and Merseyrail (or Miseryrail as I like to call them) are within their rights to take you to court. You've got 21 days to respond to that, choosing between pleading guilty by post, pleading guilty but attending court in person to give mitigation, or pleading not guilty and attending court so that the court can decide if you're guilty or not.

What offence have you been charged with? Have you been in trouble for not having a ticket before?

Welcome to the forum!

What @island has said here is, unfortunately, true. You have no right to a penalty fare and they are entirely within their rights to proceed with a prosecution.

You may be able to persuade them otherwise with an extremely well-written letter, but I wouldn’t be too sure as MerseyRail do seem one of the stricter companies when it comes to dealing with byelaw breaches.

Other than that, my only other advice would be to plead guilty to get the 33% reduction on the penalty charge, I’m afraid.

 

[jamesdb00]

Did you receive a Penalty Fare at the time? The 21day provision refers to those.

Yes I checked the slip I was given and it’s 125 pound fine, I’m just wondering if I pay this do I also have to fill that form in and return it or is paying the fine the admission of guilt and closing the case ?

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Yes I checked the slip I was given and it’s 125 pound fine, I’m just wondering if I pay this do I also have to fill that form in and return it or is paying the fine the admission of guilt and closing the case ?

And if I pay the fine would I also have to pay another fee that is reduced by 33% if I admit guilt

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Oct 2023 ==

You don't have an entitlement to "just pay a fine"; travelling without having a ticket on you is a criminal offence and Merseyrail (or Miseryrail as I like to call them) are within their rights to take you to court. You've got 21 days to respond to that, choosing between pleading guilty by post, pleading guilty but attending court in person to give mitigation, or pleading not guilty and attending court so that the court can decide if you're guilty or not.

What offence have you been charged with? Have you been in trouble for not having a ticket before?

I haven’t been in trouble with them before no and i think the charge is not having a ticket in a non compulsory ticket area, my concern is I have £125 fine I could pay now, but is there going to be another fine after I return the letter ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Oct 2023 ==

Welcome to the forum!

What @island has said here is, unfortunately, true. You have no right to a penalty fare and they are entirely within their rights to proceed with a prosecution.

You may be able to persuade them otherwise with an extremely well-written letter, but I wouldn’t be too sure as MerseyRail do seem one of the stricter companies when it comes to dealing with byelaw breaches.

Other than that, my only other advice would be to plead guilty to get the 33% reduction on the penalty charge, I’m afraid.

Do you know if the penalty charge is the £125 charge I still have 2 days to pay ? Or is that another charge

 

[Enthusiast]

Yes I checked the slip I was given and it’s 125 pound fine, I’m just wondering if I pay this do I also have to fill that form in and return it or is paying the fine the admission of guilt and closing the case ?

You need to engage with the Single Justice Procedure (i.e. by responding to the notice). The court has no knowledge of any out of court disposals you may have been offered and will just see before it an allegation of the offence. If you fail to enter a plea the matter will be heard without your input.

It seems rather odd that the railway operator has seen fit to offer you a fixed penalty but, within a very few days, begin court proceedings. I'm not familiar with the minutiae of railway fare evasion legislation but if this was a motoring offence and you were offered a fixed penalty (with the usual 28 days to accept it) no court proceedings could begin until after that period had expired and you had failed to accept the offer.

 

[fandroid]

Can you please post a photo of the slip you received.

I'm no legal expert, but my instinct is that you should pay the penalty. If the case referred to in the sjpn goes ahead then at least you should be able to claim to the court that you had already part paid the compensation and costs element that would normally be awarded to Merseyrail.

If we can see the slip we should be able to confirm what it is, and better advise you.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Can you please post a photo of the slip you received.

I'm no legal expert, but my instinct is that you should pay the penalty. If the case referred to in the sjpn goes ahead then at least you should be able to claim to the court that you had already part paid the compensation and costs element that would normally be awarded to Merseyrail.

If we can see the slip we should be able to confirm what it is, and better advise you.

It would also be helpful if you can show us the SJP Notice. For both of them hide (redact) your personal details so that you’re not telling the whole of the internet about what Merseyrail say you’ve done.

 

[scrapy]

I haven’t been in trouble with them before no and i think the charge is not having a ticket in a non compulsory ticket area, my concern is I have £125 fine I could pay now, but is there going to be another fine after I return the letter ?

I don't believe that there are any compulsory ticket areas on Merseyrail.

There is no such thing as a 'non compulsory ticket area' you are either in a compulsory ticket area or you aren't. Can you please confirm the wording of this?

 

[gray1404]

You say you left your ticket at work. Was it a season ticket. What journey were you making?

 

[Huntergreed]

I don't believe that there are any compulsory ticket areas on Merseyrail.

There is no such thing as a 'non compulsory ticket area' you are either in a compulsory ticket area or you aren't. Can you please confirm the wording of this?

Under UK law, every train in passenger service is technically a compulsory ticket area unless you board without an intent to travel.

Any station with a barrier can be reasonably assumed to be a compulsory ticket area beyond the barriers

 

[skyhigh]

Any station with a barrier can be reasonably assumed to be a compulsory ticket area beyond the barriers

A compulsory ticket area is something that is explicitly defined in law. There are really very few of them but it is an important difference to make.

“Compulsory ticket area” means any area designated as such under a penalty fares scheme and identified by a notice to this effect. Persons who enter a compulsory ticket area without being in possession of a valid ticket may be liable to pay a penalty fare.

Railway byelaws

Explains what the railway byelaws are, why they have been made and how they can be enforced and interpreted.

www.gov.uk

 

[Wallsendmag]

Under UK law, every train in passenger service is technically a compulsory ticket area unless you board without an intent to travel.

Any station with a barrier can be reasonably assumed to be a compulsory ticket area beyond the barriers

Are you sure about that?

 

[Huntergreed]

I’m happy to redact my precious statement.

Compulsory ticket areas are only those within which a PF scheme applies and notices are displayed to advertise this.

On the other hand, the byelaws state this about non-compulsory ticket areas:

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas

1. In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.
2. A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.
3. No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:

16


(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or

(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket

I still stand by the fact it seems quite clear than you cannot board a train with intent to travel without exception (I) (II) or (III) applying without breaching the byelaws.

 

[island]

Yes I checked the slip I was given and it’s 125 pound fine, I’m just wondering if I pay this do I also have to fill that form in and return it or is paying the fine the admission of guilt and closing the case ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Oct 2023 ==


And if I pay the fine would I also have to pay another fee that is reduced by 33% if I admit guilt

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Oct 2023 ==


I haven’t been in trouble with them before no and i think the charge is not having a ticket in a non compulsory ticket area, my concern is I have £125 fine I could pay now, but is there going to be another fine after I return the letter ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Oct 2023 ==


Do you know if the penalty charge is the £125 charge I still have 2 days to pay ? Or is that another charge

So this changes most of the advice you have been given. Merseyrail regularly issues £60 and £125 “out of court settlement notices” (or, as I like to call them, Penalty Fakes) for ticketing violations and paying this keeps the matter out of court. You did not mention this at first post.

It is absolutely essential that you post up scans/images of all paperwork, including “slips”, “receipts”, and letters that you received, both at the time you were spoken to by an inspector and that you have had by post. We need this to give you accurate advice, which may well be different to the advice you’ve had so far. Please cover or block out any personal information.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Oct 2023 ==

I don't believe that there are any compulsory ticket areas on Merseyrail.

There is no such thing as a 'non compulsory ticket area' you are either in a compulsory ticket area or you aren't. Can you please confirm the wording of this?

It will be Merseyrail Byelaw 18.

 

[fandroid]

So this changes most of the advice you have been given. Merseyrail regularly issues £60 and £125 “out of court settlement notices” (or, as I like to call them, Penalty Fakes) for ticketing violations and paying this keeps the matter out of court. You did not mention this at first post.

The Merseyrail Frequently asked Questions and Answers specifically identifies the £125 penalty as being for byelaw 18.2 infringements - that is failure to show a valid ticket when requested. It identifies the £60 penalty as being for offences like feet on seats.

 

[jamesdb00]

So this changes most of the advice you have been given. Merseyrail regularly issues £60 and £125 “out of court settlement notices” (or, as I like to call them, Penalty Fakes) for ticketing violations and paying this keeps the matter out of court. You did not mention this at first post.

It is absolutely essential that you post up scans/images of all paperwork, including “slips”, “receipts”, and letters that you received, both at the time you were spoken to by an inspector and that you have had by post. We need this to give you accurate advice, which may well be different to the advice you’ve had so far. Please cover or block out any personal information.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Oct 2023 ==


It will be Merseyrail Byelaw 18.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Oct 2023 ==

Pt 2

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Oct 2023 ==

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Oct 2023 ==

Pt 2

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Oct 2023 ==

So this changes most of the advice you have been given. Merseyrail regularly issues £60 and £125 “out of court settlement notices” (or, as I like to call them, Penalty Fakes) for ticketing violations and paying this keeps the matter out of court. You did not mention this at first post.

It is absolutely essential that you post up scans/images of all paperwork, including “slips”, “receipts”, and letters that you received, both at the time you were spoken to by an inspector and that you have had by post. We need this to give you accurate advice, which may well be different to the advice you’ve had so far. Please cover or block out any personal information.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Oct 2023 ==


It will be Merseyrail Byelaw 18.

Yes I wasn’t aware there was a penalty with this slip I’ve since paid that still under the 21 days stated to get it reduced by half on their posters

 

[skyhigh]

The slip that you were issued on the day gave you the chance to make a payment to settle the matter - have you done this?

 

[island]

The slip that you were issued on the day gave you the chance to make a payment to settle the matter - have you done this?

I’ve since paid that still under the 21 days stated to get it reduced by half on their posters

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Thanks for showing us everything. I think that Merseyrail have got into a muddle, and this can probably be sorted out with a phone call.

Take a note of the reference numbers on the penalty notice and on the SJP notice. Also find the reference number for the payment you have made (if you can't find that, make a note of what time and day you paid the penalty and the amount). Then phone up the number on the penalty notice and ask why you have been sent the summons. I expect they will need the reference numbers to find the right paperwork.

Hopefully they will realise that they have made a mistake and will withdraw the summons. If so, ask them to confirm this in writing. If they're reluctant to confirm in writing, then email them, essentially repeating what you said on the phone and what they said, and asking them to confirm in writing that they will withdraw the charge.

Of course, they may not withdraw the charge after one phone call. If that happens, please come back and we will try to give further advice. It would be great if you can come back anyhow so we know how things turn out!

 

[Haywain]

I think that Merseyrail have got into a muddle, and this can probably be sorted out with a phone call.

A bit harsh considering that when the OP first posted they hadn't paid the original penalty.

 

[island]

A bit harsh considering that when the OP first posted they hadn't paid the original penalty.

If they issued the SJP before their self-imposed 21 day deadline expired, I think "a muddle" is pretty generous

Thanks for showing us everything. I think that Merseyrail have got into a muddle, and this can probably be sorted out with a phone call.

Take a note of the reference numbers on the penalty notice and on the SJP notice. Also find the reference number for the payment you have made (if you can't find that, make a note of what time and day you paid the penalty and the amount). Then phone up the number on the penalty notice and ask why you have been sent the summons. I expect they will need the reference numbers to find the right paperwork.

Hopefully they will realise that they have made a mistake and will withdraw the summons. If so, ask them to confirm this in writing. If they're reluctant to confirm in writing, then email them, essentially repeating what you said on the phone and what they said, and asking them to confirm in writing that they will withdraw the charge.

Of course, they may not withdraw the charge after one phone call. If that happens, please come back and we will try to give further advice. It would be great if you can come back anyhow so we know how things turn out!

I endorse this advice.

 

[Haywain]

If they issued the SJP before their self-imposed 21 day deadline expired, I think "a muddle" is pretty generous

That's fair comment. I was referring more to the apparent* suggestion that they issued the SJP after receiving payment.

*That's how I read it.

 

[jamesdb00]

If they issued the SJP before their self-imposed 21 day deadline expired, I think "a muddle" is pretty generous


I endorse this advice.

Thanks for the advice I’ll give them a ring on my lunch tomorrow and see what response I get, I have more of an issue with the statement from the person giving the slip stating I moved away from them, said no to answering questions. Which are untrue, things he missed out where him claiming i had ID on me for my address in my bag which I didn’t but showed him it on my bank app, he also told me I lived at an address I’ve never heard of, and didn’t instruct me that I was being given a fine I was told to get on my train and given the slip as a warning

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Thanks for the advice I’ll give them a ring on my lunch tomorrow and see what response I get, I have more of an issue with the statement from the person giving the slip stating I moved away from them, said no to answering questions. Which are untrue, things he missed out where him claiming i had ID on me for my address in my bag which I didn’t but showed him it on my bank app, he also told me I lived at an address I’ve never heard of, and didn’t instruct me that I was being given a fine I was told to get on my train and given the slip as a warning

I think there are two issues:
- the SJP Notice
- what the inspector said to you.

To be blunt, the SJP notice is the one to worry about. Concentrate on getting that sorted out - and only then worry about what the inspector said. You want Merseyrail to work with you to make the SJP notice go away, and suggesting that you have other problems with them won't make them keen to do that.

 

[jamesdb00]

I think there are two issues:
- the SJP Notice
- what the inspector said to you.

To be blunt, the SJP notice is the one to worry about. Concentrate on getting that sorted out - and only then worry about what the inspector said. You want Merseyrail to work with you to make the SJP notice go away, and suggesting that you have other problems with them won't make them keen to do that.

Yes my thoughts exactly so it’d be best not to mention those details until I have this sjp issue resolved. If I want it dealt with in the best way.

 

[KirkstallOne]

In addition to it’s early arrival, is there not a serious flaw in the SJP paperwork?

The Criminal Procedure Rules 2020 S7.3.(1) states:

7.3.—(1) An allegation of an offence in an application for the issue of a summons or warrant or in a charge must contain—

(a)a statement of the offence that—

(i)describes the offence in ordinary language, and

(ii)identifies any legislation that creates it;


I don’t see anywhere in the written charge that the legislation that creates the alleged offence is specified.

 

[Haywain]

In addition to it’s early arrival, is there not a serious flaw in the SJP paperwork?

The Criminal Procedure Rules 2020 S7.3.(1) states:

7.3.—(1) An allegation of an offence in an application for the issue of a summons or warrant or in a charge must contain—

(a)a statement of the offence that—

(i)describes the offence in ordinary language, and

(ii)identifies any legislation that creates it;


I don’t see anywhere in the written charge that the legislation that creates the alleged offence is specified.

As the OP states they have paid the requested settlement this is of little to no relevance in this case.

 

[gray1404]

Can the OP advise what ticket exactly they had left on their desk at work? Merseyrail are governed by that National Rail Conditions of Travel in which there are limited provisions for a forgotten season ticket.

 

[jamesdb00]

Can the OP advise what ticket exactly they had left on their desk at work? Merseyrail are governed by that National Rail Conditions of Travel in which there are limited provisions for a forgotten season ticket.

Just a single daily return ticket from Brunswick to Walton, not a season pass unfortunately