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Discussion on Penalty Fare Appeal Timeframes

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furlong

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Moderator Note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/penalty-fare-appeal.254705/

The appeals panel MUST decide the appeal within 21 days. It does not have any ability to take longer.

If it doesn't make its decision within 21 days, then later attempts to make you pay, you should re-appeal on the grounds that the PF was not issued in accordance with the regulations because the regulations stipulate that there has to be an appeals panel that makes its determinations within 21 days!
 
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island

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The appeals panel MUST decide the appeal within 21 days. It does not have any ability to take longer.

If it doesn't make its decision within 21 days, then later attempts to make you pay, you should re-appeal on the grounds that the PF was not issued in accordance with the regulations because the regulations stipulate that there has to be an appeals panel that makes its determinations within 21 days!
I do not think such an appeal would succeed.

However, once the 21-day limit expires, if the PF hasn't been cancelled, the usual offences can no longer be prosecuted, and the appeal is automatically deemed successful.
 
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furlong

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I do not think such an appeal would succeed.
It think it would be bound to succeed unless you take the alternative view that a further appeal is no longer necessary as the PF is automatically rendered unenforceable by the failure to abide by the regulations so it makes no difference whether or not the process is continued by way of another appeal. Recall that one of the reasons for the rewritten regulations was to confirm the independence of the appeals bodies and regulate how they function. Deadlines in legal procedures are not uncommon and those that miss them bear the consequences.
 
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island

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It think it would be bound to succeed unless you take the alternative view that a further appeal is no longer necessary as the PF is automatically rendered unenforceable by the failure to abide by the regulations so it makes no difference whether or not the process is continued by way of another appeal. Recall that one of the reasons for the rewritten regulations was to confirm the independence of the appeals bodies and regulate how they function. Deadlines in legal procedures are not uncommon and those that miss them bear the consequences.
A penalty fare is “issued” at the time it is printed and given to the passenger. At that time it is either “issued in accordance with regulations” or it is not. Something happening in future cannot go back in time and change whether the PF was “issued in accordance with regulations”.
 

furlong

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A penalty fare is “issued” at the time it is printed and given to the passenger. At that time it is either “issued in accordance with regulations” or it is not. Something happening in future cannot go back in time and change whether the PF was “issued in accordance with regulations”.
There is no going backwards in time. At the time of issue the company does not have an appeals system in place that complies with the regulations. If it did have one that complied, then this situation could never arise because it would be impossible for the appeal to take longer than the stipulated 21 days. The company is required to provide whatever resources are necessary to meet its legal obligations if it chooses to impose Penalty Fares. If it is unable to provide the necessary resources then it cannot impose them.
 

island

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There is no going backwards in time. At the time of issue the company does not have an appeals system in place that complies with the regulations. If it did have one that complied, then this situation could never arise because it would be impossible for the appeal to take longer than the stipulated 21 days. The company is required to provide whatever resources are necessary to meet its legal obligations if it chooses to impose Penalty Fares. If it is unable to provide the necessary resources then it cannot impose them.
I am afraid this is so desperately confused that is resists any analysis or rebuttal.

I won’t be engaging further with this line of argument but will be happy to further advise the OP once they get a reply to their appeal.
 

furlong

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It is basically imperative that the operator throws resources at the appeals process so that it meets the 21 day limit in EVERY case - or else it risks being required to pay back a lot of money to offenders! Even the explanatory note accompanying the regulations makes the intention crystal clear:
Part 3 of the Regulations, together with Schedule 2, provides that an operator may only charge penalty fares if they have in place an appeals process that complies with these Regulations (regulation 14). Regulation 15 sets out the requirements that appeal panels must satisfy and regulations 16 to 18, together with Schedule 2, set out the processes and procedures that must be followed.

14 (2) Where a penalty fare is charged to a person on behalf of an operator and paragraph (4) applies, the person is not liable to pay the penalty fare.
(3) If the person referred to in paragraph (2) has paid the penalty fare, or part of it, the operator must refund that person the amount paid within the period of 10 working days, beginning with the day on which the operator knows that paragraph (4) applies.
(4) This paragraph applies if
(a) the operator did not satisfy the appeals requirements at the time the penalty fare was charged; or
(b) there is a time at which the person could appeal under regulation 16, 17 or 18, and at that time the operator does not satisfy the appeals requirements.
To avoid your "backwards in time" objection if you make the assumption that the operator didn't know in advance that it was possible for the 21 day limit ever to be breached (which I don't accept), you could take the date of the first letter sent to any appellant advising them of a delay to their case as being the (latest) day on which the operator knew that paragraph (4) applies and the point at which the operator must stop issuing ANY further Penalty Fares to anybody and to refund ALL active ones as per 14(b).

Note that the refunds are actions that the operator is obligated by law to perform and not something that people with already-paid Penalty Fares need to initiate, which is why it is so important to the operators that the 21 day deadline is never missed!
 
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Kite159

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It is basically imperative that the operator throws resources at the appeals process so that it meets the 21 day limit in EVERY case - or else it risks being required to pay back a lot of money to offenders! Even the explanatory note accompanying the regulations makes the intention crystal clear:



To avoid your "backwards in time" objection if you make the assumption that the operator didn't know in advance that it was possible for the 21 day limit ever to be breached (which I don't accept), you could take the date of the first letter sent to any appellant advising them of a delay to their case as being the (latest) day on which the operator knew that paragraph (4) applies and the point at which the operator must stop issuing ANY further Penalty Fares to anybody and to refund ALL active ones as per 14(b).

Note that the refunds are actions that the operator is obligated by law to perform and not something that people with already-paid Penalty Fares need to initiate, which is why it is so important to the operators that the 21 day deadline is never missed!
What a lot of rubbish

If one case goes over 21 days it doesn't automatically mean everybody who has previously paid gets a refund.

Do you want the TOC to back out from issuing penalty fares and go straight to the "we will take you to court unless you pay us £100+X" letter stage with no appeal process like Northern used to do during the Abellio/Serco days to make you feel happy that they comply?
 

furlong

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If one case goes over 21 days it doesn't automatically mean everybody who has previously paid gets a refund.
I'm afraid that is what a strict reading of the regulations appears to say! They are specified as absolute mandatory requirements, not as flexible targets such as "90% decided within 21 days". There looks to be a technicality that would give them a tiny amount of wriggle-room enough to cover one-off mistakes or problems, but I don't think anything allows them to write letters to people saying we know we are going to breach the regulations yet continue to issue Penalty Fares.

Do you want the TOC to back out from issuing penalty fares and go straight to the "we will take you to court unless you pay us £100+X" letter stage with no appeal process like Northern used to do during the Abellio/Serco days to make you feel happy that they comply?

I want them to take their 21 day obligation seriously enough that they provide the process with the resources necessary to meet it. I reckon they'd be better to decide appeals that were going to time out in the appellant's favour by default witihn 21 days instead of doing nothing and letting paragraph 4 kick in.
 

John Palmer

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Up to a point I agree with @furlong's analysis, but it is at this point that I part company with it:
It is basically imperative that the operator throws resources at the appeals process so that it meets the 21 day limit in EVERY case - or else it risks being required to pay back a lot of money to offenders!
That seems to involve a proposition that an inability of the appeals process to determine any individual appeal within the prescribed time is, in effect, fatal to the legitimacy of the appeal process as a whole, and that's a conclusion I'm reluctant to accept because it would impose upon the operator an obligation that seems to go beyond what is required by Regulation 14(5):

'An operator “satisfies the appeals requirements” for the purposes of this regulation if the operator has—
(a) made arrangements for—
(i) an Appeal Panel to consider any appeal under regulations 16 and 17 against a penalty fare charged on its behalf, and
(ii) a Final Appeal Panel to consider any appeal under regulation 18 against a penalty fare charged on its behalf; and
(b) established and maintained a financial arrangement with the relevant Appeal Panel and the relevant Final Appeal Panel to ensure that all of the costs associated with appeals under regulations 16, 17 and 18 against penalty fares charged on behalf of the operator are paid for by the operator.'


I read this as requiring an operator to do no more than making arrangements for appeal panels meeting the requirements of Regulation 15 to consider appeals and putting and keeping in place the financial arrangements that will enable such panels to do so. I see nothing in the definition of what “satisfies the appeals requirements” that imposes on the operator an obligation to ensure that the appeal machinery it puts in place will decide every appeal received within the prescribed time limit, though I recognise that there might be scope for argument as to whether the words “consider any appeal under regulations 16 and 17” (or “under regulation 18”, as the case may be) in Regulation 14(5) import such an obligation. The fact that the Regulations make specific provision for the consequences of failure to observe that time limit in the individual case suggests to me that no such obligation was intended.

I don't, however, have any difficulty in recognising the possibility that circumstances may arise in which an operator retrospectively becomes aware of circumstances that render the appeal machinery it has put in place non-compliant with the Regulation 14(5) requirements.

Suppose, for example, that a majority shareholding in the company that is providing Operator A's appeal arrangements is acquired by a company that is an affiliate of an operator (Note: any operator – not necessarily Operator A). In such a case that provider may well cease to be “managerially and organisationally independent of any operator and any affiliate of an operator” (Regulations 15(1) and (2)) and, having thus become incapable of providing appeal panels that meet the requirements of Regulation 15, becomes ineligible to form part of the arrangements for considering appeals that meet the requirements of Regulation 14(5). In turn that means that the Operator A has ceased to “satisfy the appeals requirements” and has come within the scope of Regulation 14(4), though it may not become aware of that fact until some time after the acquisition of the relevant controlling shareholding. In those circumstances it is certainly possible that there will be people who have received penalty fares on a date falling after that on which Regulation 14(4) became applicable to Operator A, which then becomes subject to the positive obligations set out in Regulations 14(3) and (3A) to take the initiative in making appropriate refunds to such recipients within 10 days, regardless of whether such refunds have been claimed.

All of this is probably fairly academic for the OP, but what will be of relevance is the consequence, in the individual case, of a lawfully constituted appeal panel failing to decide an appeal within the time allowed, i.e. “before the end of the period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the appeal is received” (Schedule 2 Paragraph 6)). In the majority of cases the consequences of that failure will be as laid down in Regulation 16(11A):

If an appeal is against a penalty fare calculated in accordance with regulation 9(1A) or (4A), where the relevant Appeal Panel—
(a)notifies the operator that an appeal has been allowed; or
(b)fails to adhere to the time period specified in paragraph 6 of schedule 2, the appellant is not liable to pay the penalty fare in question and is only liable to pay the full single fare applicable for their journey.
” (my emphasis)

The OP submitted an appeal on 22 September, but the more important question is when it was received by the appeal panel. If it was submitted electronically, then receipt is likely also to have occurred on 22 September (a point that can be checked by the OP on Penalty Services' online record of the appeal) – at which date the time for determining the appeal began to count down, and is probably now nearly at an end.
 
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