LNW Trent Valley services

[Jimini]

Of course one key reason for this is Avanti being too expensive...so does DfT have the guts to fix the actual problem?

(Answer: no, of course not)

...and yet you posted on here just a few months ago applauding AWC for removing super off peak tickets -- one example of why this situation exists in the first place?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well yes of course. As is almost always the case with British timetables, the connection is much more favourable in one direction than in the other, so that's what people are offered by their journey planner. As it happens there's no way to just strip it out unless you make the flexible tickets not valid, and then if you do that you may as well bin them entirely.

One thing you could do if it's a problem (and I'm not convinced it is) would be to route the LNR/WMT Only tickets from the West Midlands "LNR/WMT Northampton" or somesuch.

I seem to recall though that when the Trent was 4-car the restrictions on the Super Off Peak were stricter that way than via Northampton - indeed, I'm fairly sure the Saturday restrictions on the Super Off Peak were introduced on the Trent long before they were on the Birmingham.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Oct 2023 ==

...and yet you posted on here just a few months ago applauding AWC for removing super off peak tickets -- one example of why this situation exists in the first place?

Niche fares with confusing, heavy restrictions that aren't useful to most passengers are not the solution. They were available on a tiny number of flows and were so restricted they were borderline useless.

 

[Starmill]

Niche fares with confusing

So is the suggestion above in your own post not another niche fare?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So is the suggestion above in your own post not another niche fare?

Clearly not, as the vast majority of passengers travelling between Birmingham and MK/London on LNR/WMT Only fares at whatever level will do so on a direct train via Northampton. British people don't like changing trains, and a WMT guard above has confirmed that, unsurprisingly, hardly anyone does.

Journey planners may show the connection as being faster, but will generally also, for competition reasons, show the direct even if slower.

The LNR/WMT Only Super Off Peak is fairly niche (it's only useful for evenings out and Sundays given the swingeing restrictions) but I'm talking about all LNR/WMT Only fares including the Anytime and Off Peak.

 

[Starmill]

British people don't like changing trains, and a WMT guard above has confirmed that, unsurprisingly, hardly anyone does.

That's quite the opposite of what they said.

What they said is that most people do exactly what the journey planner suggests, which is change trains one way and stay on the same train the other way, because that's what actually saves the most time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's quite the opposite of what they said.

What they said is that most people do exactly what the journey planner suggests, which is change trains one way and stay on the same train the other way, because that's what actually saves the most time.

I think this is rather bizarre.

I've used the LNR Birminghams in both directions countless times at lots of different times of day, both on the 3tph service (which was only meaningfully 2 as one was overtaken, indeed post COVID the third one ceased to run through and was split at Northampton) and the half hourly service now, and Rugby has never been a massively popular place to board or alight in either direction. There are some, but it's not heaving.

 

[LowLevel]

I don't see how both can't be true. They're not bad, but they're only a bit over half. Will therefore drop significantly when you add 50% more capacity.

I've quite often seen the things with people standing in all 8 coaches at Nuneaton.

 

[DarloRich]

I've quite often seen the things with people standing in all 8 coaches at Nuneaton.

agreed - i keep saying the Tamworth change onto/off XC has exploded post covid.

 

[Bletchleyite]

agreed - i keep saying the Tamworth change onto/off XC has exploded post covid.

Is this potentially (like overcrowding on the Birmingham-Euston semifasts) caused by overpricing on EMR?

Might also be that splits (which can save a fortune on that sort of journey) are becoming mainstream, partly through publicity, and partly because Trainline (like it or loathe it, it's what most "laypeople" use) now offers them?

 

[DarloRich]

Is this potentially (like overcrowding on the Birmingham-Euston semifasts) caused by overpricing on EMR?

Could be. Could be planners are offering it more often as a route. - I don't have data beyond visual!

 

[LowLevel]

Is this potentially (like overcrowding on the Birmingham-Euston semifasts) caused by overpricing on EMR?

Overpricing is probably the wrong word as EMR trains are also generally full all day long too, but hamstrung by being mostly inefficient 5 carriage 222s.

 

[Kite159]

Remember for some destinations (Derby/Sheffield) there are some cheaper "LNR+XC only" flexible fares for passengers to use Tamworth to change at.

 

[Russel]

In regards to the discussion above about weather 12 cars are needed or not, the lease on the extra 4 cars is being paid if it's being used or not and there is no extra train staff involved, so any extra costs involved won't be huge by railway standards so I can't really see how it isn't worth doing?

 

[SCDR_WMR]

In regards to the discussion above about weather 12 cars are needed or not, the lease on the extra 4 cars is being paid if it's being used or not and there is no extra train staff involved, so any extra costs involved won't be huge by railway standards so I can't really see how it isn't worth doing?

From a Conductor point of view, the additional cost will mostly be fom delays due to extra time taken at stations. That and passenger issues regarding UDS which already causes delay.

Could see 10 minutes lost each way.

 

[Merle Haggard]

In regards to the discussion above about weather 12 cars are needed or not, the lease on the extra 4 cars is being paid if it's being used or not and there is no extra train staff involved, so any extra costs involved won't be huge by railway standards so I can't really see how it isn't worth doing?

I understood that the 350/2s were initially intended for peak time use, so the lease charge was low fixed cost plus high mileage costs (unlike the 350/1s which were the converse). When the requirement changed to use all day, the new franchisees tried to re-negotiate the contract to be similar to the 350/1 one, but the leasees declined, so that's why the lease will be terminated and replaced by 730s with a lower cost. What that means is that the cost of their use isn't marginal (quite apart from creeping towards the magic 'hours in service' figures). Fortunately it seems that the 350/2s weren't included in the requirement for their lease to be carried over to a new franchise (Section 20??? or is that something completely different ) .

It's a shame this sort of info' isn't readily available to the public - after all, we're the ones picking up the bills...

 

[Starmill]

In regards to the discussion above about weather 12 cars are needed or not, the lease on the extra 4 cars is being paid if it's being used or not and there is no extra train staff involved, so any extra costs involved won't be huge by railway standards so I can't really see how it isn't worth doing?

Surely it's obvious? Those units would otherwise be available to work between Coventry and Birmingham or Leighton Buzzard and London, where proportionately they'd be better utilised.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely it's obvious? Those units would otherwise be available to work between Coventry and Birmingham or Leighton Buzzard and London, where proportionately they'd be better utilised.

There is no proposal to lengthen any of those services, nor do most of them need it. 8 car is a pretty good match to demand on Saturdays and Sundays, which are the days in question, with only a few exceptions which could probably be provided for by tweaking with maintenance schedules.

 

[Starmill]

Is this potentially (like overcrowding on the Birmingham-Euston semifasts) caused by overpricing on EMR?

As lowlevel suggests it's because EMR Intercity has very little capacity. The Meridian fleet is stretched far too thinly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Oct 2023 ==

There is no proposal to lengthen any of those services, nor do most of them need it. 8 car is a pretty good match to demand on Saturdays and Sundays, which are the days in question, with only a few exceptions which could probably be provided for by tweaking with maintenance schedules.

You mean how it's also perfectly adequate for the demand between Rugby and Crewe?

 

[Bletchleyite]

As lowlevel suggests it's because EMR Intercity has very little capacity. The Meridian fleet is stretched far too thinly.

True, and the coming of the Hitachis will offer quite considerably more capacity even if a 5-car unit.

 

[Starmill]

From a Conductor point of view, the additional cost will mostly be fom delays due to extra time taken at stations. That and passenger issues regarding UDS which already causes delay.

Could see 10 minutes lost each way.

I know some conductors are of the view that it would actually be quicker to detach the rear 4 and leave them at Rugby as it is. Nearly every single service has someone who is overcarried because they didn't listen to or understand the public address. Of course the company would likely need to provide another driver to do the shunting duty in that case so that'd kill it before considering if it is or isn't of overall benefit.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Oct 2023 ==

I've quite often seen the things with people standing in all 8 coaches at Nuneaton.

Yes this has been a serious issue every weekend recently as there's engineering work in the Coventry area.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know some conductors are of the view that it would actually be quicker to detach the rear 4 and leave them at Rugby as it is. Nearly every single service has someone who is overcarried because they didn't listen to or understand the public address.

Perhaps it's not clear enough, then. It was a lot easier when you were near guaranteed to get a mixed pair of units and thus could refer people to "the bit with the blue seats" or "the bit with the green seats".

That's absolutely no excuse for cramming everyone into 4 just to make operation a bit easier. But knowing how reluctant a significant number of Bletchley guards are to get off their backside out of the cab and walk the train to check tickets and assist people, I'm not surprised the overriding preference is for an easier option.

 

[Russel]

Surely it's obvious? Those units would otherwise be available to work between Coventry and Birmingham or Leighton Buzzard and London, where proportionately they'd be better utilised.

But that isn't being proposed, is it, so it's got to be better for the units to be used on the Crewe services, even if the entire journey north of Tamworth doesn't require 12 car.

It's a bit of positive news and there isn't much of that around at the moment, so I'm not sure why you're so against it.

 

[Starmill]

But that isn't being proposed, is it, so it's got to be better for the units to be used on the Crewe services, even if the entire journey north of Tamworth doesn't require 12 car.

It's a bit of positive news and there isn't much of that around at the moment, so I'm not sure why you're so against it.

I'm not really against it, I'm just pointing out that it's a very wasteful practice because, for the hundredth time, there's more than enough seats for everyone who wants one between Crewe and Rugby. They won't be reducing the prices for Nuneaton to Crewe inclusive either, because they'd risk more splitting undercutting the Crewe - London price. You can't just say well there's plenty of units sitting in the depot may as well use them for no reason, the demand more and more public funding to keep your heavily loss-making service going.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not really against it, I'm just pointing out that it's a very wasteful practice because, for the hundredth time, there's more than enough seats for everyone who wants one between Crewe and Rugby.

You keep saying this, but at certain times on certain days it's simply not true.

They won't be reducing the prices for Nuneaton to Crewe inclusive either, because they'd risk more splitting undercutting the Crewe - London price. You can't just say well there's plenty of units sitting in the depot may as well use them for no reason, the demand more and more public funding to keep your heavily loss-making service going.

It's my understanding that that service actually came about as a pseudo-Open Access arrangement which wasn't part of LM's franchise agreement (the franchise agreement required an hourly Rugby to Crewe stopping service but didn't require it to continue to Euston), and that it is, or at least was, actually profitable in and of itself. That's why it's been the subject of constant improvement, from Project 110 to diverting it to allow longer trains.

 

[Starmill]

You keep saying this, but at certain times on certain days it's simply not true.

Common when a service is cancelled and another takes its load, or when there are no services via Coventry due to engineering works, yes. Common otherwise? No, indeed very rare.

 

[Russel]

Common when a service is cancelled and another takes its load, or when there are no services via Coventry due to engineering works, yes. Common otherwise? No, indeed very rare.

You use it on a regular basis then?

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Common when a service is cancelled and another takes its load, or when there are no services via Coventry due to engineering works, yes. Common otherwise? No, indeed very rare.

Common on most Friday and Saturday trains before say 10PM, and extremely common on Sundays.
Engineering obviously makes it worse at Rugby and Nuneaton in particular, but I would say at least half of the trains over those days are pretty full up past/by Rugby.

As this is a DfT project, not a WMT one, clearly the nunbers stack up for increasing capacity otherwise they wouldn't be mandating it.

Whether this is the right way to do so is open to opinion.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Common on most Friday and Saturday trains before say 10PM, and extremely common on Sundays.
Engineering obviously makes it worse at Rugby and Nuneaton in particular, but I would say at least half of the trains over those days are pretty full up past/by Rugby.

As this is a DfT project, not a WMT one, clearly the nunbers stack up for increasing capacity otherwise they wouldn't be mandating it.

Whether this is the right way to do so is open to opinion.

The ideal would be a second service per hour, but it may be difficult to path and would obviously cost more as you need another crew. And that might make the service so popular that you need 12 cars on both!

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I know some conductors are of the view that it would actually be quicker to detach the rear 4 and leave them at Rugby as it is. Nearly every single service has someone who is overcarried because they didn't listen to or understand the public address.

Almost definitely to both points.

 

[AndrewE]

Almost definitely to both points.

but it seems to work fine on the 8-car trains at the 4-car stations between liverpool and Brum...