HS2 Manchester leg scrapped: what should happen now?

[21C101]

The problem is that there's nowhere logical to send them. Long distance trains run through Birmingham because there is, but London is in the bottom right hand corner with no major intercity destinations to the south and east.

A four platform station between Euston and St Pancras with the tracks continuing onto HS1 and a large set of stabling/storage/cleaning etc sidings at Ripple Lane.

Then trains would go out of service at the new station and run ECS to Ripple Lane. You would also have the option to keep some in service to Stratford or if you wanted to be really bold run a few beyond there to Ashford (and maybe even one or two to Paris etc).

Not going to happen though

 

[Krokodil]

As bad as this "announcement" will be, clearly the pressure on Sunak to NOT cancel Euston (to avoid the line being a complete joke) has seemingly had some effect.

If this is how it pans out - expect Labour to quickly commit to 2A if they win (its cheap as chips comparatively speaking) and sweep 2B under the carpet temporarily, by bundling the whole thing in to NPR as a seperate project.

My take is that Sunak was planning to announce cancellation in the Autumn. Someone helpfully leaked that information just in time for the party conference, which just happened to be in Manchester. A media hurricane resulted and the government are now flailing around, clueless about what to do.

Several papers saying this is Sunaks personal decision

Gilligan's personal decision more like

"Railway to take a lot of trucks off the road and make your motorway journeys quicker" would probably have much greater support than "high speed railway to knock 15 minutes off a rich businessman's journey from Brum to London".

Shame that we don't have any ministers intelligent enough to put right the media narrative above. Quite apart from capacity the time saving between Birmingham and Leeds should have been 1h9m, which combined with the 200m units would have represented a massive improvement upon XC's present offering.

Obviously long distance trains make intermediate stops in cities.

But do they then terminate spread across the suburbs at the end of their routes, which is what the suggestion seemed to be here?

One example of what he appears to be trying to achieve is Manchester Airport. Some of the trains that serve the station primarily go there in order to move them on from central Manchester.

I dread to think what the cost of a London Hauptbahnhof would have been though.

 

[12LDA28C]

"Railway to take a lot of trucks off the road and make your motorway journeys quicker" would probably have much greater support than "high speed railway to knock 15 minutes off a rich businessman's journey from Brum to London".

But of course only the intellectually challenged still think that HS2 is being built 'to knock 15 minutes off a rich businessman's journey from Brum to London'.

 

[Krokodil]

Also noteworthy in this regard that Stuttgart is currently being deliberately rebuilt from a terminus into a through station so that long distance trains can run through it - in the process reducing the number of platforms.

Yet at the same time we are building (well, hopefully) new dead-end termini. The mind boggles.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Oct 2023 ==

But of course only the intellectually challenged still think that HS2 is being built 'to knock 15 minutes off a rich businessman's journey from Brum to London'.

Remember that half of the country have a below-average IQ.

 

[12LDA28C]

Remember that half of the country have a below-average IQ.

Even those people have access to the Internet and Google though...

 

[AdamWW]

But of course only the intellectually challenged still think that HS2 is being built 'to knock 15 minutes off a rich businessman's journey from Brum to London'.

I think that's a bit unfair - that's how HS2 is generally represented and few people have the time to look into everything they read to get a more accurate view.

I am sure that I have equally ignorant views on many things where I rely on the media portrayal for my information.

 

[12LDA28C]

I think that's a bit unfair - that's how HS2 is generally represented and few people have the time to look into everything they read to get a more accurate view.

I am sure that I have equally ignorant views on many things where I rely on the media portrayal for my information.

And I am sure that you exercise restraint and don't feel compelled to make judgements and air ill-informed opinions without doing at least a little basic research first. Or maybe that's just my own personal approach, if I don't know much about a subject.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

A four platform station between Euston and St Pancras with the tracks continuing onto HS1 and a large set of stabling/storage/cleaning etc sidings at Ripple Lane.

I believe that would be impossible to build because - basically, all the underground space just East of Euston is either already occupied by the mass of tube lines plus some buildings with deep basements, or is reserved for Crossrail 2.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yet at the same time we are building (well, hopefully) new dead-end termini. The mind boggles.

The mind doesn't boggle. The situation is different. Through stations aren't needed for any expected service pattern, and it's been explained repeatedly why a London-Brum-Manchester service doesn't make sense.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Oct 2023 ==

I believe that would be impossible to build because - basically, all the underground space just East of Euston is either already occupied by the mass of tube lines plus some buildings with deep basements, or is reserved for Crossrail 2.

Hugely expensive and a poorer passenger experience than a terminus.

 

[AdamWW]

Yet at the same time we are building (well, hopefully) new dead-end termini. The mind boggles.

I don't know the geography. Maybe in Stuttgart there are sensible destinations on either side to run long distance services between?

A four platform station between Euston and St Pancras with the tracks continuing onto HS1 and a large set of stabling/storage/cleaning etc sidings at Ripple Lane.

Then trains would go out of service at the new station and run ECS to Ripple Lane.

I can see that this reduces the land take at Euston.

But haven't you now considerably increased turnaround times while trains shuttle back and forth from the station to the servicing area?

And reduced the number of trains that can be boarded at the same time (maybe not a problem in normal operation but could be when there's disruption)?

 

[Deepgreen]

With the Government still claiming a decision has yet to be made, one thing seems clear - Sky News severely jumped the gun.

 

[AdamWW]

Hugely expensive and a poorer passenger experience than a terminus.

True - if you're able to allow boarding to start, say, 20 minutes before departure, it makes it a lot more pleasant than having everyone lined up on the platform waiting to jump on a train as soon as it pulls in.

 

[Deepgreen]

I don't know the geography. Maybe in Stuttgart there are sensible destinations on either side to run long distance services between?



I can see that this reduces the land take at Euston.

But haven't you now considerably increased turnaround times while trains shuttle back and forth from the station to the servicing area?

And reduced the number of trains that can be boarded at the same time (maybe not a problem in normal operation but could be when there's disruption)?

The land has already been taken at Euston.

 

[stuu]

Obviously long distance trains make intermediate stops in cities.

But do they then terminate spread across the suburbs at the end of their routes, which is what the suggestion seemed to be here?

That's what they do in Berlin and Hamburg

 

[Krokodil]

Even those people have access to the Internet and Google though...

...and Twitter (I refuse to call it 'X'). Unfortunately algorithms turn their media consumption into an echo chamber. In the same breath as "white elephant" they also bang on about how much better the European railways apparently are. The irony bypasses them.

The mind doesn't boggle. The situation is different. Through stations aren't needed for any expected service pattern, and it's been explained repeatedly why a London-Brum-Manchester service doesn't make sense.

I didn't specify which station I had in mind. The high speed platforms at Manchester are supposed to be used by NPR trains, which will therefore have to reverse.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With the Government still claiming a decision has yet to be made, one thing seems clear - Sky News severely jumped the gun.

I disagree. Seems to have been a good piece of journalistic investigation.

 

[Deepgreen]

Agreed. It's a shame, the difference is a matter of half a mile or so between the two railways. It'll be opportunity for a network lost.

The Tories don't believe in the concept of a network in the same way they don't believe in 'society'. Everything must compete to be effective...

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's what they do in Berlin and Hamburg

Hamburg's layout is a bit like a 4 tracked Castlefield - trains terminate at the opposite end of the Altonaer Verbindungsbahn to where they enter it. Plenty do terminate at Hbf, just as they do at Berlin Hbf.

 

[Deepgreen]

I disagree. Seems to have been a good piece of journalistic investigation.

There can be no disagreement with the facts - Sky claimed it had been decided and has no proof.

 

[BeccaOnATrain]

Can't say I'm surprised, but even though I was against it at the start. still disappointed to hear the news. Feels like such an absolute colossus waste of money that has already gone into it.

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He also confirmed that he saw the HS2 line to Manchester as less important than improving rail links between northern cities across the Pennines. “East to west is the biggest concern most people have,” he told Times Radio.

For me personally he's not wrong here though - I'd much prefer to see more frequent, faster and reliable services across the North West and Yorkshire than I would extra capacity to London. However I don't trust anything this government says now so I remain doubtful of any plans for the North coming to fruition.

 

[Krokodil]

There can be no disagreement with the facts - Sky claimed it had been decided and has no proof.

There are no facts. Odds are the government had decided, and is now running scared of the backlash.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There can be no disagreement with the facts - Sky claimed it had been decided and has no proof.

It clearly has some sort of leak which had clear basis, and as such has helped bring the Goverment to account. This is exactly what journalism should do, not just toe the line and issue the press releases provided.

There are no facts. Odds are the government had decided, and is now running scared of the backlash.

This.

 

[AdamWW]

That's what they do in Berlin and Hamburg

I did wonder about Berlin.

Well maybe I'm wrong and this is indeed the appropriate, modern way to handle terminating long distance services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I did wonder about Berlin.

Loads of trains terminate at Berlin Hbf.

Well maybe I'm wrong and this is indeed the appropriate, modern way to handle terminating long distance services

It's not, it's just a way of in some cases making things cheaper.

 

[trebor79]

[HS2 achieves nothing more than saving 15 minutes to/from Birmingham]

Shame that we don't have any ministers intelligent enough to put right the media narrative above. Quite apart from capacity the time saving between Birmingham and Leeds should have been 1h9m, which combined with the 200m units would have represented a massive improvement upon XC's present offering.

Well indeed. But the truncated OOC to Curzon Street isn't going to achieve anything more than that is it?
WRT to Brum/Leeds capacity that could be sorted way more cheaply buy buying some proper trains for XC. On board WiFi and/or don't fit windows that prevent 4G signals and people can work quite happily on a longer journey.

But of course only the intellectually challenged still think that HS2 is being built 'to knock 15 minutes off a rich businessman's journey from Brum to London'.

I don't think OOC to Curzon Street will deliver more that that. Do you? I'm not sure anybody could actually give a coherent rational for continuing to build a relatively short and isolated stretch of high speed line now. It's nothing more than a face saving exercise so that the government can say "We built it in full ['full' does not have the same definition as it did 20 years ago]".

Remember that half of the country have a below-average IQ.

Indeed

 

[Deepgreen]

There are no facts. Odds are the government had decided, and is now running scared of the backlash.

There is one fact - it has not been announced, so has not been cancelled - formally. It almost certainly WILL be, but hasn't yet. That's what I mean by jumping the gun. The whole saga is yet another example of this government's dire communications failures, which belong in a satirical comedy more than reality.

 

[AdamWW]

The land has already been taken at Euston.

Well yes but I thought we were discussing views on what they should have done.

(And I'm sure people could find some other use for any land not required for the station just as they presumably will if this part of HS2 is cancelled)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Oct 2023 ==

I don't think OOC to Curzon Street will deliver more that that. Do you? I'm not sure anybody could actually give a coherent rational for continuing to build a relatively short and isolated stretch of high speed line now. It's nothing more than a face saving exercise so that the government can say "We built it in full ['full' does not have the same definition as it did 20 years ago]".

Well once you have it, you have it, so I suppose it depends on whether there is still a realistic possibility that in time to come it could practically be extended.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

and it's been explained repeatedly why a London-Brum-Manchester service doesn't make sense.

Seems to make a lot of sense to me. Birmingham is not far off being directly in between London and Manchester, yet HS2 as currently designed will separately run London-Birmingham, Birmingham-Manchester, and London-Manchester services. If you combined those into a London-Birmingham-Manchester service, then the same number of trains would give you twice the frequency between each of those places, which would make HS2 into a truly turn-up-and-go service along the London-Birmingham-Manchester core. The shorter waiting times would easily make up for the slightly longer London-Manchester journey times.

But of course that idea flew away long ago when they stupidly decided to build Birmingham HS2 as a terminus instead of a through station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seems to make a lot of sense to me. Birmingham is not far off being directly in between London and Manchester, yet HS2 as currently designed will separately run London-Birmingham, Birmingham-Manchester, and London-Manchester services. If you combined those into a London-Birmingham-Manchester service, then the same number of trains would give you twice the frequency between each of those places, which would make HS2 into a truly turn-up-and-go service along the London-Birmingham-Manchester core. The shorter waiting times would easily make up for the slightly longer London-Manchester journey times.

But of course that idea flew away long ago when they stupidly decided to build Birmingham HS2 as a terminus instead of a through station.

For one, you would lose a lot of the speed gain. For another, demand isn't mirrored north and south of Brum. Waiting times are a bit moot because the Chiltern tunnel evacuation approach doesn't, as I recall, allow for true walk up travel, nor do the dwells at Old Oak, so you'll have booked a specific train and will arrive for that one, not at random.

The services have always been separate despite the fact you could join them now if you wanted - this tells you what you need to know.

 

[AdamWW]

For one, you would lose a lot of the speed gain. For another, demand isn't mirrored north and south of Brum. Waiting times are a bit moot because the Chiltern tunnel evacuation approach doesn't, as I recall, allow for true walk up travel, nor do the dwells at Old Oak, so you'll have booked a specific train and will arrive for that one, not at random.

Which will in itself wipe out some/all of the advantage of improved journey times if you can't cut it fine knowing that if you miss your train you can get on the next one even if you might not get a seat.

Though I suspect that flexible tickets, if they exist, won't be cheap.

Save 15 minutes on the journey but get to the station half an hour before the train to make sure you don't miss it...