London Buses Discussion

[LUYMun]

Londoner Buses have announced their Heritage Routemaster route A is to be replaced by a new circular route T15 (numbered in homage to the 15H route pre-pandemic) "in a few weeks' time".

Londoner Buses - In a few weeks time, service A will be...

In a few weeks time, service A will be replaced by a new service T15 and will be extended to operate from Trafalgar Square to Tower Hill but until then...

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In a few weeks time, service A will be replaced by a new service T15 and will be extended to operate from Trafalgar Square to Tower Hill but until then Route A will operate to the timetable shown below.

 

[Mikey C]

Route 168 became Route 1 this morning. The NRMs appear to be gone - does anyone know where the ex 168 NRMs are headed?

Will be really weird to see 1s terminating at Hampstead Heath station rather than 168s!

 

[MotCO]

There was no way it was going to happen when you factorize the problems. I believe not all of them are registered yet, but IE2 is registered as LX23BKA (souce - below image, my picture)

IE2 - LX23BKA

Seen at the Orpington garage open day is Irizar iE Tram IE2 - LX23BKA. Probably what all the enthusiasts wanted to see

www.flickr.com

At this rate, the IEs ordered for the Kent Fasttrack may be in service before the 358's. Maybe the Orpington buses will enter service in Kent first

 

[MasterSpenny]

At this rate, the IEs ordered for the Kent Fasttrack may be in service before the 358's. Maybe the Orpington buses will enter service in Kent first

It could even reach the next contract with the existing Citaros. That would make the 358s current contract be diesel single deck when it was awarded with new electric single deckers.

I hope it doesn’t get to a stage where the buses get diverted to something like the 227!

 

[Busaholic]

It could even reach the next contract with the existing Citaros. That would make the 358s current contract be diesel single deck when it was awarded with new electric single deckers.

I hope it doesn’t get to a stage where the buses get diverted to something like the 227!

It might prove easier to install the necessary equipment at the Bromley North terminus!

 

[MasterSpenny]

A route actually converts to electric on the contract start date! It rarely happens in a post Covid world. (To be fair its only like the 214, 444 and W15 prior to the D3 contract starting which is today)

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As expected the 450 has ran fully electric today. Surprisingly, the C3 did, borrowing some of the existing Wrightbus StreetDeck Electroliners. I honestly expected some hybrids to be on it!
Key:
Route 450:
SLS - Arriva London Wrightbus StreetLite
SEe - Go Ahead BYD Enviro 200 EV
Route C3:
OME - RATP Optare MetroDecker EV
30* - Wrightbus StreetDeck Electroliner

London Vehicle Finder

Search current and historic bus routes and locations in London, Reading, Edinburgh. Created to help photographers track down ellusive vehicles.

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London Vehicle Finder

Search current and historic bus routes and locations in London, Reading, Edinburgh. Created to help photographers track down ellusive vehicles.

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Abellio London - Route C3​

Towards - Earls Court, Tesco​

Fleet	Reg	Destination	Due	Stop Id	Stop Name
3037be	LV73FDU	Earls Court, Tesco	21:47	56596	Glenrosa Street

Towards - Clapham Junction​

Fleet	Reg	Destination	Due	Stop Id	Stop Name
3029be	LV72CAA	Wandsworth Bridge, South Side	21:48	57315	Earls Court Road/Old Brompton Road
3034be	LV73FDN	Wandsworth Bridge, South Side	21:18	55821	William Morris Way/Sainsburys
3035be	LV73FDO	Clapham Junction	21:26	55821	William Morris Way/Sainsburys

Vehicles that have also been on the route during the day :-​

Fleet	Reg	Used From	Used Until	Line
OME46001	YJ70EVB	00:00	00:25
OME46016	YJ21EVW	00:21	00:27
OME46021	YJ70EXC	00:00	00:45
OME46032	YJ21EXP	00:00	00:42
OME46035	YJ21EXT	00:08	00:18
3028be	LV72BZY	08:00	19:12
3030be	LV72CAE	14:04	19:36
3031be	LV73FDK	05:30	21:02
3033be	LV73FDM	05:42	20:46

GoAhead London - Route 450​

Towards - Lower Sydenham​

Fleet	Reg	Destination	Due	Stop Id	Stop Name
SEe251e	LG73FYM	Lower Sydenham	21:47	47530	Sydenham High School
SEe252e	LG73FYN	Lower Sydenham	21:47	56000	Torridge Road
SEe254e	LG73FYP	Lower Sydenham	21:47	47038	Windmill Grove

Towards - West Croydon​

Fleet	Reg	Destination	Due	Stop Id	Stop Name
SEe246e	LG73FYF	West Croydon	21:47	56294	Cromwell Road
SEe247e	LG73FYH	West Croydon	21:47	49826	Upper Norwood Recreation Ground
SEe250e	LG73FYL	West Croydon	21:43	76958	Rockmount Road

Vehicles that have also been on the route during the day :-​

Fleet	Reg	Used From	Used Until	Line
SLS1	LK66AMO	00:00	00:04
SLS3	LK66AMV	00:00	00:25
SLS9	LK66ANV	00:00	00:03
SLS13	LK66AOC	00:00	00:43
SLS17	LK66AOG	00:00	00:25
SEe243e	LG73FYC	05:11	20:49
SEe244e	LG73FYD	08:09	20:46
SEe245e	LG73FYE	05:52	14:15

 

[Whiggism]

Can I ask why 168 was removed completely?

 

[PGAT]

Is it true that the PVR for the 450 has reduced to 15?

 

[Snow1964]

As expected the 450 has ran fully electric today. Surprisingly, the C3 did, borrowing some of the existing Wrightbus StreetDeck Electroliners. I honestly expected some hybrids to be on it!

Probably because Abellio don't have newly gained route C3 on any powerblinds (which the hybrids are fitted with) but easy to add to the electronic displays on Electroliners. The LTs at TF (Twickenham-Fulwell garage) have 111 and (other routes) in addition to their normal 237 route, so can easily cover 111 if there are loans.

 

[317 forever]

That is exactly the issue. TfL needs to sweat the assets with them and essentially run them until they fall apart.

Currently they have to all be off the road by 2034. However the mayor might well bring the date for the whole fleet being zero emission forward to 2030. Another scenario is that central London will become zero emission for all vehicles in a few years time (I think this inevitable).

Even with the 2034 date TfL aren't going to want to replace all 950-odd operational NRMs in one go, so their withdrawal is going to have to be smoothed over a number of years anyway, which would give or take a couple of years align with a 14 year life.

The other scenario is that they're converted to battery electric. However, all is silent on the demonstration conversion and I'm not aware of any successful other conversions to date. What ones have been done haven't lasted long.

Plus, is it a good idea to covert a near-fully depreciated bus to battery electric? It means it then has to last at least another 7-8 years to recoup the cost of the conversion.

At the moment, all new tenders specifying existing diesels or hybrids are being arranged to expire in 2030 at the latest. Tenders involving LTs are currently being given 5 year terms.

For LT routes this points to tenders commencing no later than 2025 expiring after 5 years and those from 2026 specifying replacement buses. This would mean LTs being withdrawn between 2026 and 2030.

 

[Goldfish62]

At the moment, all new tenders specifying existing diesels or hybrids are being arranged to expire in 2030 at the latest. Tenders involving LTs are currently being given 5 year terms.

For LT routes this points to tenders commencing no later than 2025 expiring after 5 years and those from 2026 specifying replacement buses. This would mean LTs being withdrawn between 2026 and 2030.

Thanks.

 

[Snow1964]

At the moment, all new tenders specifying existing diesels or hybrids are being arranged to expire in 2030 at the latest. Tenders involving LTs are currently being given 5 year terms.

For LT routes this points to tenders commencing no later than 2025 expiring after 5 years and those from 2026 specifying replacement buses. This would mean LTs being withdrawn between 2026 and 2030.

Apart from the 8 prototype / pre production delivered in 2012, LTs were mainly built summer 2013 to mid 2017 (although 1 slipped into 2018)

We're already at the point where about 20 per month are hitting their 10th birthday. Only 110 were registered after 31/12/16 so 89% would be at least 14 years old by end of 2030.

 

[MotCO]

As expected the 450 has ran fully electric today. Surprisingly, the C3 did, borrowing some of the existing Wrightbus StreetDeck Electroliners. I honestly expected some hybrids to be on it!
Key:
Route 450:
SLS - Arriva London Wrightbus StreetLite
SEe - Go Ahead BYD Enviro 200 EV
Route C3:
OME - RATP Optare MetroDecker EV
30* - Wrightbus StreetDeck Electroliner

London Vehicle Finder

Search current and historic bus routes and locations in London, Reading, Edinburgh. Created to help photographers track down ellusive vehicles.

lvf.io

London Vehicle Finder

Search current and historic bus routes and locations in London, Reading, Edinburgh. Created to help photographers track down ellusive vehicles.

lvf.io

Looks like the Metrodeckers are now appearing on routes 23 (as before) and 28 (which I think is new?)

 

[Snow1964]

Looks like the Metrodeckers are now appearing on routes 23 (as before) and 28 (which I think is new?)

Have been used as partial allocation on 28 for a while, ever since 23 timetable was pared back couple of years ago.

The loss of C3 (to Abellio) yesterday means more will now be on 28. Should allow couple of loaned buses from Hounslow to return, and see off the two remaining Omnicities (SP class) in RATP fleet.

Recent route losses mean RATP now has about 30-40 spare single decks, all of which were upgraded to euro6 so will probably be leaving London for other operators soon

 

[317 forever]

Apart from the 8 prototype / pre production delivered in 2012, LTs were mainly built summer 2013 to mid 2017 (although 1 slipped into 2018)

Already at point where about 20 per month are hitting their 10th birthday. Only 110 were registered after 31/12/16 so 89% would be at least 14 years old by end of 2030

Although 89% would be that old by 2030, I have specifically in my post predicted withdrawals from 2026 to 2030.

 

[Snow1964]

Although 89% would be that old by 2030, I have specifically in my post predicted withdrawals from 2026 to 2030.

I will partly disagree, TfL seem to have recently issued some 3 and 4 year awards so I suspect they will try and defer the bulk withdrawal start to 2027 or even early 2028.

I also forsee one of those fudges where about 150 LTs end up their days on school routes through to 2032 or 2033, and TfL will carefully use words main bus network rather than all routes for its zero emission announcements

 

[MasterSpenny]

I also forsee one of those fudges where about 150 LTs end up their days on school routes through to 2032 or 2033, and TfL will carefully use words main bus network rather than all routes for its zero emission announcements

About 3 New Routemasters will end up on the 632 officially in preparation for it’s new contract (source: http://www.londonbusroutes.net/changes.htm)
In East London, Go Ahead London seem to like to chuck New Routemasters on the River Road garage school routes. It is possible that the 687 is a New Routemaster route now, given it gained the really long length TriAxle from route 12 at the start of the year and given how unreliable it is, not been out for almost 10 months. To top it off, the Enviro 400 formerly allocated (E202) has moved to the Transport for Greater Manchester Bee Network.
Before and after of it (SN61BKJ - not my photos)
Before:

LONDON GENERAL E202 SN61BKJ ILFORD 050519

Explore David Beardmore's 186438 photos on Flickr!

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After:

Go North West 3117 (SN61BKJ)

Alexander Dennis Enviro 400

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London Vehicle Finder

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Vehicle GAL TA1 (LX18DGF) has been used as follows :-​

Oper	Route	Date	From	Until
GAL	687	23-01-2023	07:58	15:48
GAL	687	20-01-2023	07:50	08:30
GAL	687	19-01-2023	07:50	15:42
GAL	687	18-01-2023	15:00	15:47
GAL	687	17-01-2023	15:19	15:45
GAL	687	16-01-2023	08:03	08:30
GAL	687	13-01-2023	15:13	15:45
GAL	12	15-07-2021	10:30	14:32
GAL	12	14-07-2021	10:40	21:45

632

Contract retained by Metroline with 3 existing hybrid New Bus for London double deckers. (5 years) No change to the timetable. (270923)

7 Oct 23

 

[MotCO]

I also forsee one of those fudges where about 150 LTs end up their days on school routes through to 2032 or 2033, and TfL will carefully use words main bus network rather than all routes for its zero emission announcements

How suitable are LTs for school duties, given their two staircases and three doors? Plenty of scope for causing mischief on them

 

[dlj83]

Can I ask why 168 was removed completely?

The 1 has been extended over most of the route 168

 

[Snow1964]

How suitable are LTs for school duties, given their two staircases and three doors? Plenty of scope for causing mischief on them

Not very suitable, but they exist and are paid for, so if choice is using them, or buying a new bus for services that operates less than 200 hours per year (about 1% of most London buses usage), then going to be financial pressure to use them as long as possible.

 

[Busaholic]

Can I ask why 168 was removed completely?

To save buses and drivers, which both equal money. Part of the tubeless Old Kent Road gets a significantly worse service, of course, but the denizens of more media vocal Belsize Park don't suffer, so that's okay.

 

[Edsmith]

To save buses and drivers, which both equal money. Part of the tubeless Old Kent Road gets a significantly worse service, of course, but the denizens of more media vocal Belsize Park don't suffer, so that's okay.

A section of Old Kent Road that is over bussed. I doubt most people will even notice the difference, still over 50 buses per hour in both directions.

 

[Deerfold]

Not very suitable, but they exist and are paid for, so if choice is using them, or buying a new bus for services that operates less than 200 hours per year (about 1% of most London buses usage), then going to be financial pressure to use them as long as possible.

There's 8760 hours in most years. 200 hours is 2.3% of that. I struggle to believe that most buses in London run for more than twice the hours there are.

 

[Mikey C]

Recent route losses mean RATP now has about 30-40 spare single decks, all of which were upgraded to euro6 so will probably be leaving London for other operators soon

I imagine they are newer than many of Metroline's single deckers, as Metroline do have a lot of elderly E200s. They might be a handy short term acquisition.

 

[Sunil_P]

Paper blinds are easier to photograph. The LED blinds on the new EVs on the 366 look blank!

 

[MasterSpenny]

I imagine they are newer than many of Metroline's single deckers, as Metroline do have a lot of elderly E200s. They might be a handy short term acquisition.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the Volvo BZL single decker versions replace the elderly Enviro 200s.
Speaking of Volvo BZLs, is there any more news on them since they were first noted below?

First look at single deck Volvo BZLs for London, VMS2822 and VMS2830 seen in Eastleigh.
Not my pictures, but here is the front:

Eastleigh VMS2822 + VMS2830

Metroline electric MCV/ Volvo BZL, fleet numbers VMS2822 and VMS2830 seen at Barton Park, No registration numbers shown.

www.flickr.com

The back:

Eastleigh VMS2822 + VMS2830

Metroline electric MCV/ Volvo BZL, fleet numbers VMS2822 and VMS2830 seen at Barton Park, No registration numbers shown.

www.flickr.com

Thoughts on these?

 

[Mikey C]

I wouldn’t be surprised if the Volvo BZL single decker versions replace the elderly Enviro 200s.
Speaking of Volvo BZLs, is there any more news on them since they were first noted below?

I'm sure they will eventually replace them all, but I don't know if that happen quickly enough to remove their oldest E200s before they become too old for TfL use.

 

[Goldfish62]

I'm sure they will eventually replace them all, but I don't know if that happen quickly enough to remove their oldest E200s before they become too old for TfL use.

Unless replacement mid-contract is agreed prior to contract award, buses will normally remain on a contract until its expiry. Occasionally there are exceptions where newer vehicles become unexpectedly available and then their use on a current contract and any associated change to the contract price is by negotiation.

If new vehicles are late being delivered then any change to the contract price will be negotiated.

 

[MasterSpenny]

Superloop branded VMH2563 (route SL8 allocated) is on the 92. Imagine this in broad daylight

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Metroline - Route 92​

Towards - St Raphaels North​

Fleet	Reg	Destination	Due	Stop Id	Stop Name
VWH2094	LK15CWR	St Raphaels North	22:09	53519	Wembley Central Station
VWH2097	LK15CWV	St Raphaels North	22:11	76875	Rockware Avenue/Greenford Station
VWH2099	LK15CWX	St Raphaels North	22:08	57788	Chaplin Road
VWH2128	LK65EBG	St Raphaels North	22:08	49862	Ealing Hospital

Towards - Ealing Hospital​

Fleet	Reg	Destination	Due	Stop Id	Stop Name
TEH1449	LK13BGE	Ealing Hospital	22:03	49862	Ealing Hospital
VWH2095	LK15CWT	Ealing Hospital	22:08	57611	Ealing Road
VWH2122	LK65EAX	Ealing Hospital	22:11	49048	Ikea Brent Park/Panther Drive
VWH2126	LK65EBD	Ealing Hospital	22:11	52388	Harrow Road
VWH2131	LK65EBM	Ealing Hospital	22:08	52130	Golf Links Estate
VMH2563s	LA68DXE	Ealing Hospital	22:00	54842	Greenford Depot

 

[Busaholic]

A section of Old Kent Road that is over bussed. I doubt most people will even notice the difference, still over 50 buses per hour in both directions.

Overbussed? I wonder why the Bakerloo Line extension that way is the number one priority on the TfL wish list, then. The 168 gave the only direct route to Waterloo, Holborn etc, while the 53 has been ridiculously cut back to no longer cross the Thames. Not everyone wants to change buses at Elephant or Bricklayer's to complete a relatively short journey. The people of almost tubeless S.E. London are always treated lamentably by transport authorities.