9/11 - 22 years since it happened

[ac6000cw]

I had been up one of the towers and had lunch up there in the January that year and I always remember where I was and thinking of the young people who worked in the restaurant. Visited ground zero three years after.

We had visited NYC over New Year 2001, staying at the Marriott Hotel which was between the Twin Towers and visiting the 'Windows on the World' bar at the top of the North Tower at night. I can definitely remember where I was and what I was doing on the day of 9/11 and my rising sense of disbelief as the events unfolded 9 months later...

 

[Pinza-C55]

Of all of the videos that surfaced on the day there's one that hits home the hardest is from almost directly in front of the two towers where the fire brigade had set up a type of command point. I think it was shot by a TV news crew so is good quality but the first tower starts to collapse and they all run, but it was clear from what we could see that they had no idea that either tower would collapse.

So sad that so many firefighters were blindly going into the towers thinking that they were putting a fire out.

There was actually an interview with a fire chief at the time and he told the reporter "we can't get up there to put the fire out".

 

[tigerroar]

There was actually an interview with a fire chief at the time and he told the reporter "we can't get up there to put the fire out".

It makes you wonder why firefighters actually went up there if they knew there was no hope of putting the fire out. Sometimes people must forget that they're just doing a job and that they're not superheroes with special powers.

 

[gg1]

It makes you wonder why firefighters actually went up there if they knew there was no hope of putting the fire out. Sometimes people must forget that they're just doing a job and that they're not superheroes with special powers.

I'm guessing that even if they couldn't put it out they may have been able to slow it's spread to allow time for more people to evacuate and would definitely have been able to help evacuate people who were injured and unable to walk.

 

[Pinza-C55]

It makes you wonder why firefighters actually went up there if they knew there was no hope of putting the fire out. Sometimes people must forget that they're just doing a job and that they're not superheroes with special powers.

They were trying to evacuate people and rescue any who were trapped.

 

[Purple Train]

It makes you wonder why firefighters actually went up there if they knew there was no hope of putting the fire out. Sometimes people must forget that they're just doing a job and that they're not superheroes with special powers.

Or they might have the astonishing bravery to do what they can in the hope that it might save at least one life, even at the cost of their own, to put a far less cynical and frankly (not that I like using the term) disrespectful slant on things.

 

[ac6000cw]

It makes you wonder why firefighters actually went up there if they knew there was no hope of putting the fire out. Sometimes people must forget that they're just doing a job and that they're not superheroes with special powers.

I'm sure they knew (in their hearts at least) that it was a hopeless situation, but this was pretty close to a wartime rescue situation and I assume they just decided to do whatever they could to try and save people - isn't that why many of them would have become firefighters in the first place?

Sometimes people do what they feel they have to do...

(Just outside Cambridge, there is Cambridge American Cemetery and Memorial - it's a humbling experience to walk around the long lines of white crosses, many of which commemorate aircrew who flew missions from East Anglia in WW2 and never came back. I struggle to imagine the level of bravery needed to get in a plane knowing there was high chance they might be killed, but they did what they had to do...)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Sep 2023 ==

Or they might have the astonishing bravery to do what they can in the hope that it might save at least one life, even at the cost of their own, to put a far less cynical and frankly (not that I like using the term) disrespectful slant on things.

Well said.

 

[tigerroar]

Or they might have the astonishing bravery to do what they can in the hope that it might save at least one life, even at the cost of their own, to put a far less cynical and frankly (not that I like using the term) disrespectful slant on things.

Wow. Tell that to their widows and children who lost fathers.

 

[edwin_m]

Nobody on the scene really expected the towers to collapse before the first one did, and if the collapse hadn't happened then they would most likely have been able to bring a good number of people out.

 

[Pinza-C55]

Nobody on the scene really expected the towers to collapse before the first one did, and if the collapse hadn't happened then they would most likely have been able to bring a good number of people out.

Below the crash level yes but all of the people above were dead. There was only one staircase accessible in one tower and it led onto an area engulfed in flames. With hindsight both towers should have commenced evacuation as soon as the first plane hit.

 

[Purple Train]

Wow. Tell that to their widows and children who lost fathers.

I'm desperately confused as to what you mean. If you think that hailing them as the heroes they are is in some way insensitive to their relatives, then I'm not very sure what planet you're inhabiting.

Personally, my view is that those widows and children would find what you said far more insensitive, namely that they died "forgetting that they weren't superheroes with special powers". Your wording is the insensitive one here: suggesting that they died in a fit of egotism belittles, trivialises, and completely misrepresents the sacrifice those brave, brave souls made, and casts them in a negative light that they in no way deserve.

 

[edwin_m]

Below the crash level yes but all of the people above were dead. There was only one staircase accessible in one tower and it led onto an area engulfed in flames. With hindsight both towers should have commenced evacuation as soon as the first plane hit.

I think there were people still alive in the floors above, remembering that some people were seen jumping from these floors, but it's quite possible they had no way out other than perhaps by helicopter off the roof. But there were probably people below the crash level who only got out because of firefighter assistance, and others who would have done if the building had stood for longer.

 

[Pinza-C55]

I think there were people still alive in the floors above, remembering that some people were seen jumping from these floors, but it's quite possible they had no way out other than perhaps by helicopter off the roof. But there were probably people below the crash level who only got out because of firefighter assistance, and others who would have done if the building had stood for longer.

Both building roofs had multiple large radio antennae and were covered in thick plumes of smoke. Also the doors to the roof were locked. If a helicopter were somehow able to land and people were able to get to it , it would be immediately swamped by desperate people.
The people who jumped had a 2000 degree fire behind them and thus no way to the one intact stairwell.
In other words if it was possible it would have been done.

 

[Sorcerer]

For the people on the floors above the impact zones, there was tragically very little if no hope for survival at all. In the south tower only a handful of survivors made it down the single remaining emergency staircase which was blocked by debris from the drywall used to line the interior walls around the core steel columns. Meanwhile in the north tower, all three emergency staircases were destroyed which trapped everyone above the impact zone. The fires and smoke meanwhile would've made it increasingly difficult to survive, and I seriously doubt the helicopters would've managed to land safely on the buildings because of said fire and smoke even with helipads on both of the buildings. When you think about it, the only thing anyone can possibly take solace in is knowing that it was so early in the morning that the towers hadn't reached their usual occupancy which meant the death toll could've been much higher, which of course still doesn't make it any easier for the victims and their families.

 

[tigerroar]

I'm desperately confused as to what you mean. If you think that hailing them as the heroes they are is in some way insensitive to their relatives, then I'm not very sure what planet you're inhabiting.

Personally, my view is that those widows and children would find what you said far more insensitive, namely that they died "forgetting that they weren't superheroes with special powers". Your wording is the insensitive one here: suggesting that they died in a fit of egotism belittles, trivialises, and completely misrepresents the sacrifice those brave, brave souls made, and casts them in a negative light that they in no way deserve.

you can think that if you like but they still went to work that day and didn't come home to their families. They were only doing their jobs.

 

[Purple Train]

you can think that if you like but they still went to work that day and didn't come home to their families. They were only doing their jobs.

I hate to break it to you, but I am perfectly aware. And I'm confused as to how you think that fits in with the nonsense you've been spinning about them "forgetting they're not superheroes with special powers", and how I am somehow insensitive for referring to them as heroes. Could you please explain further?

 

[yorksrob]

9/11

Was traveling down south from Leeds for a job interview (the dot com bubble had burst a bit earlier).

First heard chatter on the Northern line - a terrorist attack in New York - ok nothing that surprising, we've all had them.

Then got a CEP from London Bridge to Ashford (rare at this time, painted in Southern Green). Again whispers about a terrorist attack in America, but nothing to suggest the scale of the thing.

Then, got to the family home and it was all there on the telly. Will never forget. (very unsettling night).

The day after , was on the train for my job interview in Reading - couldn't find a newspaper for love nor money.

A terrible and disturbing time.

 

[tigerroar]

But there are some parts of the job that you naturally have to deal with as an unwritten fact of life. In the same way that getting caught in wet weather is a fact of life for working outside as a postman, and more appropriately for these forums a fatality is a fact of life for driving trains, dying on the job is a fact of life in being a firefighter. They go to work every day knowing they may not be going home, and they accept that because it's a natural risk with the job that is ultimately defined by fighting fires and saving lives. I would definitely say that such acts of heroism makes one worthy of being called a hero.

Imagine going out of the door in the morning, kissing the kids goodbye and saying "Daddy might die at work today being a hero". Those kids would much prefer their dad than a hero.

There was an incident recently on the ECML where a policeman died. I assume the details will come out in the fullness of time but I wonder if he did something "brave" which he thought wouldn't harm him because he was a policeman?

 

[Purple Train]

Imagine going out of the door in the morning, kissing the kids goodbye and saying "Daddy might die at work today being a hero". Those kids would much prefer their dad than a hero.

Which does not justify your smear that they "forgot they weren't superheroes". The choice between their dad and a hero - and I agree, I'm sure those kids would prefer that - isn't the choice we're debating about. It's about my opinion that they were selfless heroes against your opinion that they "forgot they weren't superheroes" and, by extension, acted in a manner that could be described as egotistical. Why you feel the need to be so negative about these ordinary people who performed extraordinary acts of selflessness astonishes me. As someone who never even saw the pictures as it happened, and never even saw everything pan out - I was born a few years after 9/11 - I can only imagine the sheer horror they were presented with, and can only imagine, at my callow age, the sheer bravery of the decisions those firefighters took.

 

[tigerroar]

Smear? Please stop being offended by someone who has a different opinion. Different opinions are allowed you know. I've had a third party contact me and try to censure me for making a totally valid point.

They performed extraordinary acts of selflessness and died because of it, the sensible ones ran away.

Maybe when you get out of your teens you'll understand things a bit better. I had no idea I was engaging with a child.

 

[Purple Train]

Smear?

smear
noun
1. a dirty mark or smudge

2. a slanderous attack

I consider the areas of your posts I take issue with to fit the second category.

Different opinions are allowed you know. I've had a third party contact me and try to censure me for making a totally valid point.

There's different opinions and there's plain nonsense. In my opinion, you're straying into the latter.

They performed extraordinary acts of selflessness and died because of it

They did indeed.

the sensible ones ran away.

While I have no doubt that I would have done the same in that scenario - lacking the bravery and selflessness of those who performed "extraordinary acts of selflessness" - implying those selfless firefighters were not sensible does them such a disservice. I don't know whether your wording is just careless or whether you genuinely think that the real heroes are the ones who ran away. I'm not crying shame on those who ran away - there's no shame in not being extraordinary - but they are not worthy of greater adulation than their colleagues who made the greatest sacrifice.

Maybe when you get out of your teens you'll understand things a bit better.

Maybe when I get out of my teens I'll be able to stop myself from engaging with posts as nonsensical as yours on this subject.

I had no idea I was engaging with a child.

I shall take that as a compliment.

 

[tigerroar]

Look, stop it. I'm not interested in your opinion on my point of view. Maybe try again in twenty years when you have some life experience under your belt.

Don't reply.