Overnight break on outbound leg of Off-Peak Return

[MKB]

Apologies as I'm sure this has been asked before, but I can't find it.

Normally when I travel back from Liverpool to Nuneaton late on a weekday night (i.e. after 10pm), I overnight in Crewe (as there are no services at that time to Nuneaton) using the return leg of an Off-Peak Return and continue home the following morning. The fare (details here) is valid after 04:15 on this route.

For my next trip, I already have single tickets outbound, so I planned to buy a return (or possibly an Off-Peak Single) from Liverpool to Nuneaton instead (fare details here) so I would be travelling outbound on the leg home, but I am unclear how the rules for breaking the outbound journey are interpreted. They say:

4.4 Off-Peak Singles and the outward portion of Off-Peak Returns are valid for travel on the date shown on the ticket and until 04:29 the following morning. If the journey cannot be completed in this time, the ticket may be used to continue the journey on the following day. Unless otherwise indicated in the relevant restriction code, time restrictions apply as from the initial origin station on both days. The appropriate restrictions for the actual day on which travel is being undertaken apply (for example, it may be that if day 1 is on Sunday, no restrictions apply, but on day 2, the Monday-Friday restrictions apply). All travel must be completed by 04:29 in the morning after this second day. Please note that break of journey is not permitted on some journeys, as detailed in the ticket restrictions.

What does "If the journey cannot be completed" mean? Obviously the journey can be completed if I were to set off earlier, but my event in Liverpool finishes at 10pm so I cannot travel earlier. How is this clause usually interpreted? Can I use the outbound portion of this ticket to overnight in Crewe?

 

[Watershed]

"Cannot be completed" has always been very vague, leaving it unclear whether reference should be made to the time of day the passenger decides to begin their journey. In a case such as this, I'd say you're entitled to break your journey overnight, but some staff may disagree.

I would simply buy the ticket online, using an itinerary showing an overnight break of journey, and then show this itinerary in the event that you're told your ticket is "no longer valid". If necessary, this would make it easier to claim back the cost of any additional fare you're wrongly forced to pay.

Printing the ticket out at a time when the journey couldn't possibly have been completed also wouldn't hurt your case.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Though if you're doing a single journey for the way home, you may want to look to see if splitting is a similar price or cheaper, if it is then you could avoid the hassle more easily.

 

[MKB]

...
I would simply buy the ticket online, using an itinerary showing an overnight break of journey, and then show this itinerary in the event that you're told your ticket is "no longer valid". If necessary, this would make it easier to claim back the cost of any additional fare you're wrongly forced to pay.
...

I can't find a booking engine that will show the possibility of the 22:33 Liverpool to Crewe followed by a Crewe to Nuneaton the following morning. Even trainsplit doesn't show it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't find a booking engine that will show the possibility of the 22:33 Liverpool to Crewe followed by a Crewe to Nuneaton the following morning. Even trainsplit doesn't show it.

Trainsplit will do it if you force "change at Crewe" and put 120 extra minutes in for the connection.

It also, assuming you want the first LNR train at 0510 from Crewe, finds a split at Crewe (involving an Advance) that's cheaper than a through single.

It's worth noting that the through LNR/WMT Only walk-up single has a bar on break of journey in the restriction code. While I don't think that would prohibit waiting overnight at Crewe (because you're not breaking your journey - you're arriving on one train then departing on the first available connection), I think it could be seen to technically prohibit taking any train from Crewe to Nuneaton that's not the first one in the morning at 0510. Though obviously what constitutes break of journey is a bit woolly now it's not defined!

 

[MKB]

Thanks @Bletchleyite - that tip for trainsplit is very useful!

I'd be using the any-operator fare rather than the LM-only one, but, as a general question, what's the best source of finding whether break of journey is permitted on any outbound off-peak return? All I ever see is a statement to the effect of it being allowed unless a specific restriction is shown, and I never see any specific restriction shown during the booking process. brfares no longer seems to have full information on break-of-journey. What's the best publicly available source these days?

 

[Bletchleyite]

brfares no longer seems to have full information on break-of-journey

It does. If BoJ isn't permitted, it'll be in the restriction code text for that ticket, other than Advances where it is always banned.

In this case, it's barred on the WMT/LNR ticket, but not on the Any Permitted one. WMT seem to bar break of journey on the outward of their (Super) Off Peaks as standard, whereas Avanti only do it when it could be used to avoid a higher fare (i.e. South East to Lancaster and points north, where the peak restrictions are looser than Preston and points south).

Some ticket types show as barred at ticket type level e.g. LNR's "OPR", but this doesn't seem to be known by anything else, so the restriction code is what counts.

 

[Hadders]

The outward portion of an Off Peak Return is valid until 04:29 on day three.

Although this is a very old post it the forum member who wrote it was authoratitive on the subject at the time, that said I would not expect a hassle free journey using the outward portion of an Off Peak Return on day 2.

Revised NRCoC

Have you ever actually tried either of these options? From my experience ticket office staff don't know the answers to any but the most obvious questions. The last time I mentioned the routing guide at one it was clear that the staff member I was talking to had never heard of it. In my area it...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[pedr]

Some friends travelled from Abergavenny to Birmingham and back on off-peak returns, stopping overnight en route, so breaking the outward journey overnight arriving at the intermediate station in the afternoon and not resuming until 11 the next morning. They were told this was ok by National Rail Enquiries, by the ticket office at the intermediate station, and I think by a guard on one of the trains on the first day. The barriers were open at Birmingham though so I don’t know whether they’d have accepted an off-peak ticket dated for the previous day or whether all rail staff they might have met would have agreed it was valid!