According to Travel West Yorkshire forum the ones to Yorkshire will be swapped for 61 plate Plusar’s both Mark 1 & Mark 2 variants.
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Arriva Buses (including Greenline)
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gka472l
Member
Updated list showing all the swaps....the Pulsars from Yorkshire are all 62 plate examples. Info from 'Route102' on http://dartslf.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=1764&pid=155713#pid155713
ST HELENS 2689 CX58 EWB swapped with WAKEFIELD 1456 YJ62 JHU
ST HELENS 2691 CX58 EWD swapped with WAKEFIELD 1457 YJ62 JJO
ST HELENS 2693 CX58 EWF swapped with WAKEFIELD 1458 YJ62 JNU
ST HELENS 2694 CX58 EWG swapped with WAKEFIELD 1459 YJ62 JPX
ST HELENS 2695 CX58 EWH swapped with WAKEFIELD 1460 YJ62 JPY
ST HELENS 2697 CX58 EWK swapped with WAKEFIELD 1461 YJ62 JRV
ST HELENS 2692 CX58 EWE swapped with WAKEFIELD 1462 YJ62 JTO
ST HELENS 2696 CX58 EWJ swapped with WAKEFIELD 1463 YJ62 JUA
ST HELENS 2900 CX58 EWO swapped with WAKEFIELD 1464 YJ62 JVE
ST HELENS 2901 CX58 EWP swapped with WAKEFIELD 1465 YJ62 JVG
ST HELENS 2902 CX58 EWR swapped with CASTLEFORD 1466 YJ62 JYH
ST HELENS 2903 CX58 EWS swapped with CASTLEFORD 1478 YJ62 JSY
ST HELENS 2904 CX58 EWT swapped with CASTLEFORD 1479 YJ62 JUC
BOOTLE 4411 CX58 FZZ swapped with THURMASTON 4416 YX64 VOP
BOOTLE 4419 CX58 GBV swapped with THURMASTON 4417 YX64 VOT
BOOTLE 4420 CX58 BBY swapped with THURMASTON 4418 YX64 VOU
BOOTLE 2917 CX58 EXJ swapped with DERBY 3767 FJ13 FYM
BIRKENHEAD 2919 CX58 EXL swapped with DEWSBURY 1495 YJ62 JMX
BOOTLE 2937 MX09 EKT swapped with DERBY 3768 FJ13 FYW
BOOTLE* 2926 CX58 FZH swapped with DERBY 3769 FJ13 FYX
ST HELENS 2939 MX09 EKW swapped with CASTLEFORD 1880 YJ62 JUF
ST HELENS 2940 MX09 EKY swapped with CASTLEFORD 1481 YJ62 JVH
15 year old buses should be for the scrap. As you said typical Arriva mentality. No investment in the business
Worst part is that the 10 year old Pulsars probably represent the last time there was widespread investment in single deckers.
M803UYA
Member
In the words of a Traffic Commissioner, what a waste of time and money. No ideas, no investment, no plan for going forwards, just shifting diesel buses around from place to place as needed.
It will all pile up on them, at some stage the fleet will become too old to use on contracts etc..., and the fleet will also attract the attention of VOSA, like what happened to FirstGroup in Manchester in 2004 after they hadn't invested in the fleet for 5 years. Engineers at Arriva must be miracle men having to work with such an aging fleet and getting it running. I really though don't think Arriva will be there when the issues arise. Incidentally though I have heard that Arriva Merseyside is due some more Volvo B8RLE, MCV later on this year, London and Merseyside plus the Leicester operations of Midland seem all that they are interested in investing in.
markymark2000
On Moderation
Or they could just keep doing what they are currently doing. Cutting back on depots and routes which frees up buses to help rid older ones. Winsford/Macclesfield closure, Jesmond closure, Guildford closure. Oswestry closure released a few buses. Sheerness Depot closure released a few buses. Bolton moved to Bee Network but Arriva has kept the buses. Likely Wythenshawe closure in a few years.
Cuts to services in many areas.
It all frees up buses and has facilitated a lot of older buses going.
London they have to because it's part of the contracts. Merseyside I think someone was trying to get some brownie points hoping that they would get rid of the franchising idea. Same reason they didn't kick off when 90% of their buses got kicked out of Liverpool City Centre. Leicester it's part of the partnership scheme that they've got.
Robertj21a
On Moderation
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Arriva doesn't have to keep bidding for 5/7 year contracts in London if they didn't want to.
Surely, all buses in Leicester are in the same overall arrangements? Arriva could well be acquired by a different company before long and that company would simply replace Arriva in the Leicester arrangements.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
I don't know about 15 year buses being fit only for scrap... Only in the 1980s could you see that, and only because there was massive cutting (and much more than now - typically market analysis projects seeing fleet reductions of 20% overnight). First depreciate over 17 years IIRC.
I was highlighting the issues with Arriva before it was fashionable, and drawing the parallels with First albeit for different reasons. For First, it was the calamitous and hubristic purchase of Laidlaw that soaked up capital as they had to pay borrowing costs.
For me, it felt that people were fixated about First Group (and you can see it in the First Group thread) that people were handwringing that things had been sorted overnight yet Giles was getting First Bus sorted, bit by bit. Yet the issues with Arriva were evident probably 6/7 years ago and probably linked to David Martin leaving them.
For Arriva, it was the purchase BY Deutsche Bahn - as well as DB having their own challenges in having investment into their core business, Arriva now has to compete for capital investment and that means business cases and risk vs reward. So you have limited funds, and then UK bus has additionally has to show a business case that has some cost plus contract in mainland Europe returning 8-10% vs. UK commercial bus (i.e. outside London) returning a potential 10% but that's not guaranteed.
In short, DB's tenure has been appalling and ruinous; I might add that I was no great fan of Arriva's approach prior to DB. No strategy, focus on returns at the exclusion of almost everything else, and a retreat into ever decreasing circles, and then exacerbated by DB's lack of investment and then dithering/confusion about divestment. Feel sorry for the good managers that they have.
I was highlighting the issues with Arriva before it was fashionable, and drawing the parallels with First albeit for different reasons. For First, it was the calamitous and hubristic purchase of Laidlaw that soaked up capital as they had to pay borrowing costs.
For me, it felt that people were fixated about First Group (and you can see it in the First Group thread) that people were handwringing that things had been sorted overnight yet Giles was getting First Bus sorted, bit by bit. Yet the issues with Arriva were evident probably 6/7 years ago and probably linked to David Martin leaving them.
For Arriva, it was the purchase BY Deutsche Bahn - as well as DB having their own challenges in having investment into their core business, Arriva now has to compete for capital investment and that means business cases and risk vs reward. So you have limited funds, and then UK bus has additionally has to show a business case that has some cost plus contract in mainland Europe returning 8-10% vs. UK commercial bus (i.e. outside London) returning a potential 10% but that's not guaranteed.
To be fair, it was investing up to 2015 as they had PSVAR to address, and there was a decent order in 2017 too. However, after that, it's been much more piecemeal.
Who said that, and in what context? Not being funny... just would like to know
In short, DB's tenure has been appalling and ruinous; I might add that I was no great fan of Arriva's approach prior to DB. No strategy, focus on returns at the exclusion of almost everything else, and a retreat into ever decreasing circles, and then exacerbated by DB's lack of investment and then dithering/confusion about divestment. Feel sorry for the good managers that they have.
markymark2000
On Moderation
True but the contract makes it worthwhile investing and they bid based on what is asked of them. For contracts, most places just say buses which are not older than so many years old, they don't specify new. TFL do in some cases.
Leicester's Enhanced Partnership requires certain investments from operators. I can't speak for the Leicester plan but in other areas like Somerset, it was reported by Citistar that if operators don't stick to their end of the bargain, they lose their services from all publicity (such as council maps and bus stop timetables). That's a huge loss to the business. Most areas haven't negotiated as good a bus partnership as Leicester has so Arriva doesn't need to do half as much in other areas as they do Leicester.
Yes if another company stepped In in time, they would replace Arrivas name in the partnership but it depends on what timeframe the council demands the newer buses. The longer Arriva leaves it to tick the box, hoping someone will come along and buy them, the harder it wil be to find new buses which tick the box.
Problem is, the longer it takes Arriva to find someone to buy them, the less attractive they become...
We're not far off a point where whoever does buy Arriva, will have to look at a mass fleet replacement in most areas almost straight away.
I suspect it will be a combination of older vehicles being stretched, withdrawals and depot closures leading to cascades, and the usual cascade away from London. There aren't many parts of their network which could financially justify new vehicles, and I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that there aren't exactly plenty of alright mid-life buses on the second-hand market?
Blindtraveler
Established Member
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In the interest of some balance, I've found many of the drivers that I've experienced across the operating areas that I use, primarily Kent and Milton Keynes to be very friendly and provide excellent customer service and a safe and comfortable ride. They're back office customer care and social media has room for improvement but as was pointed out earlier the engineering team are nothing short of Harry potter style top level witches and wizards for keeping a selection of generally midlife or end-of-life vehicles on the road on a huge selection of roots in all weathers
I hope that this aspect comes across strongly enough to any perspective buyer
I hope that this aspect comes across strongly enough to any perspective buyer
Well I never expected the original Arriva livery to reappear in Derby. Thought it ad almost died out long ago. Assume these will get new fleet numbers when transferred.
M803UYA
Member
One assumes they'll be splatted with new paint pretty fast if they're the only ones not in the new livery.
TheSel
Member
Possibly linked to this, and possibly only temporary loans, but Southport's 4575/6/7 - YX64VPN/O/R (Enviro 400s) are in use at St Helens today.
Also worth noting [ex] Bootle's 4420 wears a 'Pride' rainbow. Pic (mine) below.
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Robertj21a
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That sounds like you may know very little of the Leicester arrangements.
Arriva had 36 brand new buses delivered to Leicester in the past year.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Been like that for years. Yorkshire was the beneficiary last time, when all the hybrid deckers were moved from Blyth to meet the emissions rules in Leeds.
Arriva London has seen quite a few losses, there is at least two garages closing (Ash Grove and perhaps Barking) in the coming months, perhaps it's a way to reduce age profile elsewhere in London (lots of early DB300's from 2009 being thrashed every day out of Grays garage), so losses to other London operators like Stagecoach, Go-Ahead means they can cascade newer Volvo B5LH (2017) to remove older buses in the London fleet.
Local garage to me in Tottenham will get some new electric Streetdeck Electroliners for 24-hour 243, so there's plenty of 17/67 plate buses to move on elsewhere. The DB300s on the 123 are hammered every day as that's a 24 hour route as well.
But they still cling to at least 5 16 year old buses on the 318 for some reason, despite the arrival of 65-plate E200 MMC's
(saw a picture of Leicester's new Electroliners, numbered in the 8*** series. I have never understood Arriva's numbering system outside London, they should have a national numbering system like Stagecoach or First to make their auditing easier
)
Local garage to me in Tottenham will get some new electric Streetdeck Electroliners for 24-hour 243, so there's plenty of 17/67 plate buses to move on elsewhere. The DB300s on the 123 are hammered every day as that's a 24 hour route as well.
But they still cling to at least 5 16 year old buses on the 318 for some reason, despite the arrival of 65-plate E200 MMC's
(saw a picture of Leicester's new Electroliners, numbered in the 8*** series. I have never understood Arriva's numbering system outside London, they should have a national numbering system like Stagecoach or First to make their auditing easier
)
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It does remind me of FirstGroup in the 1990's and early 2000's anything to avoid investment, or avoid it because there is in-sufficient money coming in, not helped by the fact they got rid of paper timetables and maps. Moving buses around to avoid investment mealy causes a greater issue later on, in that when it needs renewing again in order to meet local requirements there is nothing there to renew it, so they end up spending more money than what they were trying to avoid spending in the first place, e.g. model prices go up on new manufactured buses they don't stay flat, alternatively they will have to take on another FirstGroup idea and go to a dealership looking for second-hand stock out of London, and then spend thousands converting it to single door and re-upholstering it and buying seat frames to fill in the gap in the middle door, and if they want more up to date full size saloons, then they will have a big problem as London has none, they will have to hope some are coming back of lease from somewhere, or they are stuck, or replace saloons with deckers or midi's and change the frequency were the service allows.
MasterSpenny
Member
Who says the 243 is getting Wrightbus StreetDeck Electroliners?
(note: I’m referring to it as if there is evidence)
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gka472l
Member
4575-4577 are permanent moves to St Helens, Southport has Pulsars 2990-2992 in exchange, something to do with loadings on the 352, especially at school times....
Any source about Barking at risk ?Arriva London has seen quite a few losses, there is at least two garages closing (Ash Grove and perhaps Barking) in the coming months, perhaps it's a way to reduce age profile elsewhere in London (lots of early DB300's from 2009 being thrashed every day out of Grays garage), so losses to other London operators like Stagecoach, Go-Ahead means they can cascade newer Volvo B5LH (2017) to remove older buses in the London fleet.
Local garage to me in Tottenham will get some new electric Streetdeck Electroliners for 24-hour 243, so there's plenty of 17/67 plate buses to move on elsewhere. The DB300s on the 123 are hammered every day as that's a 24 hour route as well.
But they still cling to at least 5 16 year old buses on the 318 for some reason, despite the arrival of 65-plate E200 MMC's
(saw a picture of Leicester's new Electroliners, numbered in the 8*** series. I have never understood Arriva's numbering system outside London, they should have a national numbering system like Stagecoach or First to make their auditing easier
Ash Grove is shared, will that affect it ?
I have devised a national numbering plan for both Arriva and Go Ahead which I will outline in a separate thread.Arriva London has seen quite a few losses, there is at least two garages closing (Ash Grove and perhaps Barking) in the coming months, perhaps it's a way to reduce age profile elsewhere in London (lots of early DB300's from 2009 being thrashed every day out of Grays garage), so losses to other London operators like Stagecoach, Go-Ahead means they can cascade newer Volvo B5LH (2017) to remove older buses in the London fleet.
Local garage to me in Tottenham will get some new electric Streetdeck Electroliners for 24-hour 243, so there's plenty of 17/67 plate buses to move on elsewhere. The DB300s on the 123 are hammered every day as that's a 24 hour route as well.
But they still cling to at least 5 16 year old buses on the 318 for some reason, despite the arrival of 65-plate E200 MMC's
(saw a picture of Leicester's new Electroliners, numbered in the 8*** series. I have never understood Arriva's numbering system outside London, they should have a national numbering system like Stagecoach or First to make their auditing easier
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Arriva Runcorn are down to one MAN EcoCity according to the MDDW.How long will Green Lanes 12 battery buses last? These will probably be replaced by mid life Pulsars as well.
The climate has had it if reliant on Arriva' and Merseytravel eco credentials!
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Quite a few sources on the London Bus Forum... only 150 and 175 there, Stagecoach and Go Ahead (with better and newer fleets) are nearby with space, 368 has gone recently. They could move another route there, like the 123 and its allocation, but I very much doubt it. I still don't know why they mothballed Stamford Hill garage and not attempted to win work especially if rumour is true that the garage is electrified and they could have gone for the 276... sad seeing the 242 go to Stagecoach, causing a shuffling of routes (78 goes soon) so I think Arriva will move out of it's half of the garage and 253/254 into Clapton down the road.
Still, some good news, new electrics for the 243, new electrics for the 279 in Enfield (utilities sorting out charger issues with existing electrics on the 307), hopefully a handful of the 5-series DB300s currently filling in for the electrics on the 307 can release some of the tired 4-series examples being hammered on the now 24 hour route out of Tottenham on the 123.
I wonder if a shuffle of buses would see any Streetlites redundant from the loss of the 450 helping to see off the 5 or so E200 Darts still on the 318?!
I guess with parent company DB in a state of flux, it may be hard for Arriva to invest / plan for routes, it's a tough market in London. Letting go of some routes like the 242 may allow removal of older buses elsewhere in London to bring down the age profile slightly. Those Volvos are only 17/67 plate so might do well on the 370 / 103 (though I can't imagine much thrash with that horrid i-shift gearbox)...
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MasterSpenny
Member
I think they are more likely to stay in South London and remove Enviro 200 buses from the 410 (depending on the peak vehicle requirement, the 318 could take the others)I wonder if a shuffle of buses would see any Streetlites redundant from the loss of the 450 helping to see off the 5 or so E200 Darts still on the 318?!
There are still a couple of vehicles in the 'Connecting Derby' MAX style livery so I don't think they will be repainting quickly.
Anyway the swaps have begun with 2926 spotted on the 4 and 7 today in Derby.
The problem with MAN EcoCity's is that MAN build very little now for the UK and its probably become hard to source spares for such a rare model, so its been decided simply to get rid, I doubt the BYD/Enviro E200MMC at Green Lane are at any risk as spares availability is plentiful currently and they may do a full service life, dependent on Battery availability as Batteries develop. More at risk are possibly the Volvo B5LH's when the batteries go, as they cost quite a bit of money to replace and they will probably all go with others in the batch, although the later batches with the Gemini 3 StreetDeck style are much better than those with the original Gemini style body.
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