• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Ex–LYR Southport–Preston Route Closure?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Springs Branch

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2013
Messages
1,683
Location
Where my keyboard has no £ key
Speaking of train frequencies and the like, I thought I'd post some timetables from the later days of the Preston - Southport route (not including the Crossens electrics). These relate to the summer 1960 timetable.

You can see this line wasn't one of those three-trains-a-day branch lines - the service was quite usable from early in the morning to late at night, with several trains still extended at the northern end of the route to/from East Lancs, Blackpool or Scotland (and, on summer Saturdays, trains to/from Saltburn/Hartlepool - these obviously intended for annual holidaymakers, not local villagers or Preston/Southport interurban journeys)


The files are renditions of the LMR Passenger Timetable published in June 1960 and re-formatted into the clearer, more modern style adopted by BR later in the 1960s. They include details of the stops by the line's handful of trains continuing beyond Preston.
(This was one of the things I did to pass the time during COVID lockdowns)
 

Attachments

  • P-S_1960_SX.pdf
    205.6 KB · Views: 45
  • S-P_1960_SO.pdf
    195.3 KB · Views: 16
  • P-S_1960_SO.pdf
    207.8 KB · Views: 11
  • S-P_1960_SuO.pdf
    176.1 KB · Views: 8
  • S-P_1960_SX.pdf
    198.4 KB · Views: 15
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Helvellyn

Established Member
Joined
28 Aug 2009
Messages
2,581
The Southport to Crossens EMU service was reasonably successful by all accounts, but it certainly was not as busy as the Southport and Ormskirk to Liverpool lines; not even close in fact. The Crossens service was roughly every 20-30 minutes in its heyday with a two or three carriage 502 set, whilst the Southport to Liverpool line had a train every five minutes at peak times made up of five or six carriages.

Had it survived however, I'm sure it would manage respectable loadings on something like a 30 minute headway these days with perhaps extensions to and from Liverpool in the peaks. From Southport, the number of journeys to the town's surviving suburban stations of Birkdale, Hillside and Ainsdale are significant. Southport to Birkdale must be one of the commonest journeys made on the line, despite the short distance involved.
Perhaps closing Crossens-Southport was done because it was an easier closure as part of the full Preston-Southport route with an expectation that the Liverpool-Southport route was going to close as well, whereas if it was realised that Liverpool-Southport would stay open then maybe the Crossens link would have been kept.
 

507020

Established Member
Joined
23 May 2021
Messages
1,983
Location
Southport
Perhaps closing Crossens-Southport was done because it was an easier closure as part of the full Preston-Southport route with an expectation that the Liverpool-Southport route was going to close as well, whereas if it was realised that Liverpool-Southport would stay open then maybe the Crossens link would have been kept.
Closure of Southport - Crossens as part of Southport - Preston does actually make sense in anticipation of the closure of Southport - Liverpool and also damages that line with the loss of through traffic to stations to Crossens, but that only makes it even more criminal not to have retained the Southport - Crossens trackbed until it had been decided what was to be done with Southport - Liverpool.

Have we mentioned yet that closure of Southport - Crossens left BR in breach of contract for the continued supply of coal to Hesketh Park, which it was required to provide for several months after complete closure, which required part of the line to be temporarily reopened in a primitive state, but this of course preserved the formation in the short term.
 

John Luxton

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2014
Messages
2,041
Location
Liverpool
Closure of Southport - Crossens as part of Southport - Preston does actually make sense in anticipation of the closure of Southport - Liverpool and also damages that line with the loss of through traffic to stations to Crossens, but that only makes it even more criminal not to have retained the Southport - Crossens trackbed until it had been decided what was to be done with Southport - Liverpool.
The Meols Cop electric depot remained in use until 1970.

Given that he depot was retained for so long after Crossens closed along with the third rail it is surprising that Crossens wasn't retained until at least the future of the depot was decided.

Interesting to note that the Meols Cop depot closed and line to Meols Cop de-electrified after the formation of the Merseyside Passenger Transport Executive.

Was the Crossens formation still free of obstruction by 1970?

Could reinstatement to Crossens have been possible and developed at the same time as the Liverpool Merseyrail Link and Loop lines in the late 70s?
 

Gloster

Veteran Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
13,034
Location
Up the creek
The line is covered by .disused-stations.org.uk , but there is not a great deal on the politics, etc. behind the closure.
 

507020

Established Member
Joined
23 May 2021
Messages
1,983
Location
Southport
The Meols Cop electric depot remained in use until 1970.

Given that he depot was retained for so long after Crossens closed along with the third rail it is surprising that Crossens wasn't retained until at least the future of the depot was decided.

Interesting to note that the Meols Cop depot closed and line to Meols Cop de-electrified after the formation of the Merseyside Passenger Transport Executive.

Was the Crossens formation still free of obstruction by 1970?

Could reinstatement to Crossens have been possible and developed at the same time as the Liverpool Merseyrail Link and Loop lines in the late 70s?
Liverpool Central closed in 1972 along with the CLC line to Hunts Cross and the track was lifted shortly afterwards, but Liverpool City Council/MPTE defended the formation, insisting that it was to be reopened as part of the future electrified suburban network.

The de-electrified section of the North Mersey Branch remains safeguarded to this day, despite having not carried a train of any kind since 2004 (but shame about the Aintree Sorting Siding)

Southport - Preston closed September 1964 and disused-stations.org.uk has the bridge at Churchtown being demolished by May 1965, so within only a few months the formation was obliterated.

This was before the formation of the MPTE and Southport did not join until 1974. One of it’s main reasons for doing so was that the Southport Corporation had staunchly opposed the loss of these vital electric services and through services to Preston.

1964 was of course at the very height of Beeching’s tenure. Had that much really changed in the space of a few years, whereby it was now possible to save a line which previously would have been lost forever?

Note that the Meols Cop electric carriage shed was located where it was because there was not sufficient space for it anywhere in Liverpool with it all taken up by goods facilities and that for all industrial facilities that could occupy the railway triangle in Southport, an electric depot that did not produce smoke or complaints from residents was a perfect fit.

It had however been disconnected from the main line following closure and was only accessible via an infuriating succession of reversals.
 

John Luxton

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2014
Messages
2,041
Location
Liverpool
Liverpool Central closed in 1972 along with the CLC line to Hunts Cross and the track was lifted shortly afterwards, but Liverpool City Council/MPTE defended the formation, insisting that it was to be reopened as part of the future electrified suburban network.

The de-electrified section of the North Mersey Branch remains safeguarded to this day, despite having not carried a train of any kind since 2004 (but shame about the Aintree Sorting Siding)

Southport - Preston closed September 1964 and disused-stations.org.uk has the bridge at Churchtown being demolished by May 1965, so within only a few months the formation was obliterated.

This was before the formation of the MPTE and Southport did not join until 1974. One of it’s main reasons for doing so was that the Southport Corporation had staunchly opposed the loss of these vital electric services and through services to Preston.

1964 was of course at the very height of Beeching’s tenure. Had that much really changed in the space of a few years, whereby it was now possible to save a line which previously would have been lost forever?

Note that the Meols Cop electric carriage shed was located where it was because there was not sufficient space for it anywhere in Liverpool with it all taken up by goods facilities and that for all industrial facilities that could occupy the railway triangle in Southport, an electric depot that did not produce smoke or complaints from residents was a perfect fit.

It had however been disconnected from the main line following closure and was only accessible via an infuriating succession of reversals.
Thanks for the info on the removal of the bridge compromising the route.

Each time I travel on the Liverpool to Southport line I gaze at the increasingly overgrown North Mersey line through Bootle and often wonder why the plans to reopening have never happened. Running alternate Ormskirk trains via North Mersey would increase the number of travel opportunities with only those served by Orrell Park loosing out with a slight service reduction.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,711
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Each time I travel on the Liverpool to Southport line I gaze at the increasingly overgrown North Mersey line through Bootle and often wonder why the plans to reopening have never happened. Running alternate Ormskirk trains via North Mersey would increase the number of travel opportunities with only those served by Orrell Park loosing out with a slight service reduction.

Orrell Park, Walton and Kirkdale. Though admittedly the latter do have the Kirkby services (at Rice Lane in Walton's case, but it's so close it could almost be the same station) so it'd be less significant.

I really don't see the benefit - it'd knacker the perfect clockface timetable to serve areas of relatively low population density (Ford and Linacre Road were the proposed stations). And Bootle isn't really a big destination from the Ormskirk side, I think a good many people living between say Ormskirk and Maghull have never been there.

If you did want to get benefit out of it (say tying in residential development around the two proposed stations on it) I suppose you could do something like run a 4tph service terminating at Aintree and remove the Bank Hall and the two Bootle calls (or one of them if you wanted to keep the Strand as an interchange) from the Southports to speed them up, though.

Edit: Speculative thread created to continue this line of discussion should anyone wish: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/could-the-north-mersey-branch-be-reopened.255126/
 
Last edited:

frodshamfella

Established Member
Joined
25 Sep 2010
Messages
2,039
Location
Frodsham
Thanks for the info on the removal of the bridge compromising the route.

Each time I travel on the Liverpool to Southport line I gaze at the increasingly overgrown North Mersey line through Bootle and often wonder why the plans to reopening have never happened. Running alternate Ormskirk trains via North Mersey would increase the number of travel opportunities with only those served by Orrell Park loosing out with a slight service reduction.

Levelling up.comes to mind ??!
 

Springs Branch

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2013
Messages
1,683
Location
Where my keyboard has no £ key
Southport - Preston closed September 1964 and disused-stations.org.uk has the bridge at Churchtown being demolished by May 1965, so within only a few months the formation was obliterated.

This was before the formation of the MPTE and Southport did not join until 1974. One of it’s main reasons for doing so was that the Southport Corporation had staunchly opposed the loss of these vital electric services and through services to Preston.
It's interesting to think that Southport Corporation opposed withdrawal of the Crossens electrics.

You can understand why they were against the closure of the line through to Preston (losing capacity to bring in holidaymakers & visitors to patronise local businesses) and for sure they wouldn't want to lose frequent electric trains to Liverpool. The Crossens line, however, competed with Southport Corporation's local bus operation.

One thing I remember about the Southport of my youth is the town's clean, smartly presented (no road grime, bashed lower panels etc.) red & cream double deckers making their stately progress up and down Lord Street. Even after take-over by the PTE, the MPTE-liveried Leyland Nationals in Southport always looked a cut above Liverpool's buses of the time). Southport certainly seemed to be one of those towns where presentation & efficiency of the municipal bus fleet (along with clean public toilets & well-swept streets) was an integral part of the local civic pride.

So, if I was a stout local citizen in the 1960s living in Crossens, Hesketh Park or Churchtown (and not connecting to another train towards Liverpool or Manchester), maybe the Corporation's no. 9 or no. 10 bus routes (terminus at Crossens), or the no. 6 & 7 (passing close to Meols Cop station) would be a cheaper, faster* more frequent option to get to/from the town centre, rather than the train - which always made a time-consuming reversal at Meols Cop.

And Southport Corporation - which got all of the fares from its buses and none of the revenue from the train - would be keen for residents to do this too.


* [EDIT]Having said this, another thing I remember about 1960s Southport was the chronic traffic jams on the main roads leading into the town at weekends and in summer. Maybe during these times, you'd have had a quicker, congestion-free journey to & from the town centre by electric train - reversal at Meols Cop or not.
 
Last edited:

Dr Hoo

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2015
Messages
5,693
Location
Hope Valley
Can anyone explain the real (historical) significance of Crossens as terminus of a relatively intensive suburban train service in a modestly sized town?

Although the Lancashire & Yorkshire’s Liverpool Exchange-Southport-Crossens electrification is nowadays seen as quite pioneering, in many ways it was actually quite late to the Merseyside/Lancashire party.

The Liverpool Overhead Railway has opened as an electric line in 1893. Birkenhead had been a pioneer with trams and electrified around 1901. Liverpool had electrified its trams around 1898-1901. The Mersey Railway was electrified in 1903.

Southport Corporation Tramways had really got going with electric traction from 1900. The Corporation had its own power station near Blowick (in a complex with the town’s gas works, tram depot and refuse destructor). The seven routes formed a fairly tight network. This included passing Chapel Street, St Luke’s, Meols Cop, and Churchtown and indeed closer to the actual Hesketh Park than the eponymous station (and very close to Blowick).

Besides systems which had already been electrified there were other electric vultures circling. The Ormskirk & Southport Light Railway had gained its act for a new electric route in 1900. Another interurban tram route had been authorised in 1900 to run from Southport to Lytham St Annes (with a transporter bridge across the Ribble Estuary). Neither of the lines were built.

Where electrified competition existed – from the Overhead, Liverpool trams and Southport trams – the L&Y lost traffic and had to make a response. Hence the scheme as built and completed in 1904. It is unclear to me how much traffic the electrification ‘rescued’, at least in the urban areas, although it obviously boosted longer distance commuting between the Southport area and Liverpool.

So far as I am aware, before the electrification the local stations between Southport and Crossens were only served by through Southport-Preston trains. There were no short workings between Southport and Crossens (although the odd local train did just run between Southport and Banks, just beyond Crossens on Sundays).

When electrification came in there was a major ramp-up in services to Crossens. There were three stopping services per hour between Liverpool Exchange and Crossens (reversing at Southport) plus an hourly ‘express’ service from Exchange, taking advantage of the quadruple track on the way to Seaforth & Litherland to overtake, that ran to Southport and then local to Crossens. It is not clear that the express services were especially successful as they ended with the First World War.

Things changed with the building of Meols Cop works in 1913, when diversion of the Crossens service via Meols Cop, with a rapid reversal, became routine.

Crossens had remained a fairly small rural village outside the Southport boundary, with the station still almost entirely surround by fields but around 1906 became the home of the Vulcan Motor Works, just opposite the station. There would undoubtedly have been worker traffic as there was no Southport Corporation transport out that far in the tram era. Despite playing a valuable role through two world wars in making many military vehicles the factory declined rapidly into the 1950s. The local electric shuttle was thinned out significantly in this period, especially in the evenings but ironically did recover to around half-hourly before closure.

All the photographs that I’ve ever seen of Crossens (and other local stations between there and Southport) have been remarkably bereft of any actual passengers. Whilst there may well have been little marginal cost of operating the local service, it is far from clear that there was much revenue either. Crossens was only three miles from Southport, so hardly a difficult bus trip, bicycle ride or even a walk for many people. Fares were low and yet quite expensive to sell and collect with conventional heavy rail methods of operation. And by the 1960s a great deal of electrical infrastructure was 50-60 years old.

How could such an operation still be profitable into the 1960s?
 

Springs Branch

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2013
Messages
1,683
Location
Where my keyboard has no £ key
Where electrified competition existed – from the Overhead, Liverpool trams and Southport trams – the L&Y lost traffic and had to make a response. Hence the scheme as built and completed in 1904. It is unclear to me how much traffic the electrification ‘rescued’, at least in the urban areas, although it obviously boosted longer distance commuting between the Southport area and Liverpool.
John Marshall's book The Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway - Volume 2 states that over a three-month period in 1904 following start of electric trains on the Liverpool - Southport line, 113,000 extra tickets had been sold.

Without mention of 'baseline' ticket sales, it's not possible to judge the percentage improvement - but apparently the L&YR considered it a major commercial success. This number equates to about 1,200 to 1,500 extra passengers per day.

Also mentioned by Marshall is that in 1906, after electrification of the urban section between Liverpool & Aintree (via two routes), receipts rose by 52% and operating costs fell by 11% over the subsequent six years.

All the photographs that I’ve ever seen of Crossens (and other local stations between there and Southport) have been remarkably bereft of any actual passengers. Whilst there may well have been little marginal cost of operating the local service, it is far from clear that there was much revenue either. Crossens was only three miles from Southport, so hardly a difficult bus trip, bicycle ride or even a walk for many people. Fares were low and yet quite expensive to sell and collect with conventional heavy rail methods of operation. And by the 1960s a great deal of electrical infrastructure was 50-60 years old.

How could such an operation still be profitable into the 1960s?
I agree, I've thought the same thing too. Photos seem to show trains in stations, with no sign of passengers boarding or alighting.

Notwithstanding the L&YR's enthusiasm in the early 1900s to fend off ballooning tramway competition it seems unlikely the Crossens extension ever carried much traffic outside commuter peak hours.

IIRC, the L&YR built some special lightweight electric rolling stock in the early days to allow it to operate through trains between Southport and the Liverpool Overhead Railway. The through service to the LOR was apparently suspended during World War 1 and never reintroduced. Between the two World Wars this lightweight stock was transferred to operate the Southport - Crossens trains.

Once the Class 502 EMUs were introduced in the 1940s, special shortened two-car formations of these were used for some of the Crossens shuttles. The generous provision of first class seating in the original LMS Driving Trailer Composites probably meant there were not that many third class seats (for a typical train of the era) - which probably reflected the relatively low demand by that time.
 
Last edited:

Djgr

Established Member
Joined
30 Jul 2018
Messages
3,398
Liverpool Central closed in 1972 along with the CLC line to Hunts Cross and the track was lifted shortly afterwards, but Liverpool City Council/MPTE defended the formation, insisting that it was to be reopened as part of the future electrified suburban network.

The de-electrified section of the North Mersey Branch remains safeguarded to this day, despite having not carried a train of any kind since 2004 (but shame about the Aintree Sorting Siding)

Southport - Preston closed September 1964 and disused-stations.org.uk has the bridge at Churchtown being demolished by May 1965, so within only a few months the formation was obliterated.

This was before the formation of the MPTE and Southport did not join until 1974. One of it’s main reasons for doing so was that the Southport Corporation had staunchly opposed the loss of these vital electric services and through services to Preston.

1964 was of course at the very height of Beeching’s tenure. Had that much really changed in the space of a few years, whereby it was now possible to save a line which previously would have been lost forever?

Note that the Meols Cop electric carriage shed was located where it was because there was not sufficient space for it anywhere in Liverpool with it all taken up by goods facilities and that for all industrial facilities that could occupy the railway triangle in Southport, an electric depot that did not produce smoke or complaints from residents was a perfect fit.

It had however been disconnected from the main line following closure and was only accessible via an infuriating succession of reversals.
It didn't realise that they actually lifted the tracks from Liverpool Central to Hunts Cross.

Given, in railway terms, the relative short time before electric services from Liverpool to Garston commenced, was it more efficient to do that than convert the existing infrastructure to third rail?
 

Springs Branch

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2013
Messages
1,683
Location
Where my keyboard has no £ key
It didn't realise that they actually lifted the tracks from Liverpool Central to Hunts Cross.

Given, in railway terms, the relative short time before electric services from Liverpool to Garston commenced, was it more efficient to do that than convert the existing infrastructure to third rail?
The devil is in the detail here, and I don't believe it's correct that the entire line between Central High Level and Hunts Cross was lifted.

After the Gateacre DMUs into Central High Level finished in 1972, the CLC line from Cressington Junction to Brunswick Goods stayed open for freight (just for oil trains to Brunswick at the end - but I'm open to being corrected).

The northern section between Central High Level & Brunswick certainly was promptly dismantled once the Gateacre service had ended, but that's a relatively small fraction.

I suspect the final goods trains to/from Brunswick ended around mid-1977, with the refurbished & newly electrified line being connected to access Central Low Level. Merseyrail Northern Line EMUs between Kirkby & Garston starting in early January 1978.
 

Dr Hoo

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2015
Messages
5,693
Location
Hope Valley
I seem to recall reading some ‘local instructions’ in an old Sectional Appendix or something about the Brunswick line having to be worked from Hunts Cross under an engineering possession in the absence of any permanent signalling.

Anyway, rather off thread for Preston to Southport. Sorry.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top