Wrong ticket

[sleepycats]

Hi all, looking for advice about what I should do/what may happen. Apologies in advance if this is long and/or rambling, I'm still shaking and very worried.

Travelling for work today and thought I had an open return ticket as that's normally what I buy (needing flexibility around meetings etc). I bought the ticket weeks ago through trainline and it did the split save where I'd have stayed on the same train and I didn't think much of it or realise this made it an advance ticket. Today was the return leg of the journey. I got through the airport pretty quickly this evening and just headed for the first train to my destination, thinking I was OK because it was off-peak. On the first train the conductor scanned my ticket and questioned whether I was going to the station named on the split save, I said no and explained where I was going, he said no problem and scanned both tickets and went on his way. Honestly this was the first I'd even thought of it being a split save ticket but it still didn't register that it was an advance rather than an open return. I'm still confused why he didn't mention anything at this point, meaning I continued the journey believing nothing was wrong.

I had to change trains part way and the next conductors, 2 of them, scanned my ticket and said it isn't valid as I was on the wrong train. I was confused and said it's off peak so I I jumped on an earlier one, then after they explained I understood but said the previous conductor had not said anything otherwise I'd have got off the train and taken the correct one. They mentioned fare evasion and possibility of fine and prosecution and I started to panic. I immediately said it was a genuine mistake but I would get off at the next stop and wait for the correct train or get picked up by someone (we were pulling into this stop at that time). They said I wasn't allowed to get off and they went to sort out opening the doors etc. Came back and continued the conversation but this time one turned on the body camera, which made me panic even more. They wanted me to pay for a new ticket for the entire journey, but I was in a complete panic because I was scared of being fined and prosecuted, and I was travelling for work and fearful of repercussions because I booked the ticket on my work card. I said again that it was a mistake and I wanted to leave at the next station and they told me again I was not allowed. As we pulled into that station and they again left to do the doors I began having a panic attack and left the train. I was in a complete state, thinking I was going to get a criminal record for an honest mistake. I wasn't thinking straight at this point but it seemed right to get off the train as they said I didn't have a valid ticket and was breaking the law - which I wasn't trying to do!

As soon as I got off the train I began panicking even more that I'd made the situation worse. I got in a taxi to the destination station which is the end of the line. I thought at the very least if I paid for the new ticket then I would be ok and wouldn't be prosecuted. I was still having a panic attack when I got there, and I spoke to 2 staff on the gate to explain everything, one of whom was a supervisor. They said they were shocked that the conductor had acted this way 1) not letting me get off the train when the mistake came to light (they said this is the reasonable and appropriate thing to do), 2) taking the paper copy of my ticket off me and refusing to return it. They said that because I had not given any personal details and had not been given a slip of paper then I absolutely wasn't being fined and had nothing to worry about. I said that I'd booked via trainline and they scanned the ticket and also had the paper copy, and this would be traceable. I told them repeatedly I just wanted to pay for the new ticket so I would not be accused of fare evasion. They said I had done the right thing, I did not need to pay anything, and that the train company does not go to the effort of tracing details via trainline. They calmed me down and one walked me out to the car, reassuring me the whole time that nothing would happen and I wasn't in trouble.

Now I'm reading all these posts and it seems that the train company (Northern) absolutely do trace info from trainline. I'm now terrified of what will happen. I don't know how to explain this to my employer (my trainline account is registered with my work email and my work credit card). I'm wondering whether to phone the train company tomorrow, explain again and ask to pay whatever they need me to pay, to avoid any criminal action. Will it work in my favour to be proactive here? What will happen next?

I'm so worried. This was a completely genuine mistake - I've never avoided fares before and I travel on trains regularly for work.

Please help!

 

[Watershed]

Welcome to the forum. It's understandable that you are shaken up after an incident such as this, but you have come to the right place to get some advice on how to proceed.

Can you provide us with some more details on:

• The journey you were making
• What exact tickets you held (from, to, ticket type, route, price etc.) - your Trainline booking confirmation should show this
• What format your tickets were in - you mention both a ticket that was scanned, implying an e-ticket, as well as a paper copy (but e-tickets don't come with a paper copy?)

This will help us to establish whether or not your tickets were valid, whether or not the members of staff onboard the second train followed the correct procedure, as well as the likelihood of this matter being taken further by the relevant train company.

For now, definitely do not phone the train company tomorrow - you can't call up to discuss any irregularities (these are dealt with in writing) and if anything, it could make the situation worse if you do this. On the other hand, you obviously shouldn't ignore any correspondence you do receive.

 

[sleepycats]

The ticket was manchester airport to blackpool north. The split save was for Horwich parkway. Direct train. Advance ticket for a specified train (though I didn't realise this at the time)

The journey I made was manchester airport to Preston, and then Preston to blackpool north. I first asked to leave the train at Kirkham and wesham (first stop after preston), and I actually left the train at Poulton (second stop after preston).

They were etickets and they are showing in my trainline app, but I had also printed them out because I get anxious that my phone could run out of battery (I'm a very anxious person, hence the panic attack!) So it was the printed paper versions I showed.

 

[AlterEgo]

The correct thing to do was to pay the fare when asked, as you were travelling on a train you weren’t entitled to be on given you’d booked Advance tickets which were for a fixed time. By refusing to do this you made things worse, I’m afraid, and you have left yourself open to prosecution by Northern for a bylaw offence of entering a train without having on you a valid ticket to travel.

Northern are under no obligation to let you leave the train when challenged although they shouldn’t have said you were literally “not allowed” to get off. You are - it just probably wouldn’t have been the right thing to do in the circumstances.

Don’t contact Northern and wait to see if they trace your details from Trainline. If you are contacted, come back on this thread and we can advise how best to settle the matter without recourse to the courts.

 

[Danberto]

Hello, welcome to the forum!

Firstly, I would reiterate the advice you have already be given about contacting the train operating company (TOC) as this will in all probability serve to confuse the matter.

What appears to have happened is that a part of your 'split' ticket consisted of an 'advance' fare and that you travelled on it outside of the service actually specified by this. When you did this you would have been considered to be travelling without a legal ticket and therefore not paying for the service that you received.

Once you were checked on the 'advance' ticket section you were found to be in breach of requirements and dealt with by the TOC employee. They would have been required by the TOC to either issue a 'penalty fare' or complete a report outlining that a passenger was found to not hold a valid ticket.

This report gets passed to the relevant department who in due course will send you an 'Intent to prosecute' letter. This is a 'standard' letter that states what could happen and asks for your side of the story. Unfortunately, this letter is allowed to take up to 6 months to reach you although depending on the TOC departmental workload it will probably be a couple of weeks.

Once the TOC receives this letter back they will decide on what course of action to take. They could:
- Offer an 'out of court settlement'. If this is paid this will be the end of the matter, it will not lead to any prosecution. If this is offered, the TOC will ask for an 'administration fee' for their costs incurred whilst dealing with this matter plus the non-discounted fare for the sum they were not paid.
- Proceed to prosecution.
- Issue a warning/take no further action.

In the experience of forum members based on what happens to posters who receive an 'Intent to Prosecute' letter, all TOCs tend to offer the 'out of court' settlement. In order to secure this outcome, it is important that a response to the prosecution letter is framed in the 'right' way. To this end you would be advised to post a draft of your reply on this thread so that forum members may make any comment they deem valid. They will be happy to offer you their advice.

As this matter is not at a prosecution stage, I can see no reason to inform your employer.

 

[sleepycats]

Thanks for advice so far, I appreciate it.

And I fully acknowledge that I was in the wrong, both for not properly checking my ticket prior to boarding and for leaving the train while I was having a panic attack.

Just to clarify, looking back at my tickets the whole journey was an advance fare, not just part of it. Which means the first conductor should have picked up on this and I'm confused why he didn't mention anything to me then.

This, as well as the 2 staff at the station who absolutely promised I wasn't in the wrong or in any trouble and didn't need to pay anything, leave me confused with all the inconsistency.

This is kind of beside the point but I'm curious - Was it right for them to ask me to pay for a whole new ticket manchester to blackpool for £28? I was on off peak trains and from what I'm reading now it seems that if you have a ticket, but the wrong one, you should only be asked to pay the fare difference, which would have been much lower as I'd already paid £19.40 for my ticket.

I haven't contacted the train company but with my anxiety I really don't want this hanging over me even for a couple of weeks let alone possibly up to 6 months. It seems inevitable that they will contact me so it seems better to try and sort it now, showing that there was a mistake and no intention to avoid paying. Are you certain that this isn't the right thing to do?

If I wait for a letter, how do they normally contact? Trainline has my work email address, and my work office address will be attached to the credit card payments. Is it possible they will email me? I'm worried a letter will turn up at the office that I'd need to explain. Or would they track down my personal address?

Thanks again for all your help and advice.

 

[island]

This is kind of beside the point but I'm curious - Was it right for them to ask me to pay for a whole new ticket manchester to blackpool for £28? I was on off peak trains and from what I'm reading now it seems that if you have a ticket, but the wrong one, you should only be asked to pay the fare difference, which would have been much lower as I'd already paid £19.40 for my ticket.

An advance ticket has zero value on any train other than the one booked. The fact that the inspector initially believed you were making a genuine error is why you were dealt with by the lenient measure of them offering to sell you a new ticket. Because you opted not to accept this resolution unfortunately the inference will then be that you had an intention to avoid paying the proper amount for your journey, which is what’s gotten you to where you are.

Although your details weren’t taken on the day, they can easily be traced via Trainline, but whether Northern chooses to do this or not can’t be predicted.

 

[Danberto]

I would think that whatever address was given to Trainline when the account was set up will be the one that Northern Railways use. A letter will be sent to that one.

 

[sleepycats]

An advance ticket has zero value on any train other than the one booked. The fact that the inspector initially believed you were making a genuine error is why you were dealt with by the lenient measure of them offering to sell you a new ticket. Because you opted not to accept this resolution unfortunately the inference will then be that you had an intention to avoid paying the proper amount for your journey, which is what’s gotten you to where you are.

Although your details weren’t taken on the day, they can easily be traced via Trainline, but whether Northern chooses to do this or not can’t be predicted.

Thanks for explaining, I now understand why they asked for that amount. Like I said, it's by the by in the scheme of things, I was just curious now that I'm looking back.

And just to say, it didn't feel like a lenient measure with the threat of fine and prosecution! Which is what led to the panic attack, which is what made me get off the train. I understand you're looking at this from an impartial perspective, but this was a stupid but honest mistake, made worse by my existing anxiety. I'm happy to deal with the consequences and pay what is necessary, as I tried to do last night when I went to the train station and spoke to staff.

 

[sleepycats]

I would think that whatever address was given to Trainline when the account was set up will be the one that Northern Railways use. A letter will be sent to that one.

Thanks. I had forgotten I had provided an address when registering as I couldn't see anything on my mobile app. I've just logged in on the browser and can see this now, and it's my old home address, so I will update this to my current address to make sure I receive their letter.

 

[furlong]

An advance ticket has zero value on any train other than the one booked.

Not 100% true - as usual with railway ticketing there are exceptions! For anyone finding this thread later, if your ticket had been with TPE instead of Northern, it has Advance tickets from Manchester Airport that DO allow you to catch some LATER trains so that you're OK if your flight arrives late or you're delayed going through the airport.

 

[Danberto]

Not 100% true - as usual with railway ticketing there are exceptions! For anyone finding this thread later, if your ticket had been with TPE instead of Northern, it has Advance tickets from Manchester Airport that DO allow you to catch some LATER trains so that you're OK if your flight arrives late or you're delayed going through the airport.

I believe that these tickets are marked 'Airport Advance' not the 'ordinary' 'Advance'.

 

[John R]

And you have to get them changed at the ticket office at Manchester Airport before you board, along with evidence of which flight you were on (which they say they will check for the delay). You also need to allow an hour from the arrival time to your booked train departure.

 

[island]

Not 100% true - as usual with railway ticketing there are exceptions! For anyone finding this thread later, if your ticket had been with TPE instead of Northern, it has Advance tickets from Manchester Airport that DO allow you to catch some LATER trains so that you're OK if your flight arrives late or you're delayed going through the airport.

Indeed, but if I wrote every last possible exception on every post I'd never finish.

 

[furlong]

Well this particular exception has relevance if the OP wasn't put off from using the railway for life and needed to make the journey again as such a ticket could cover most of their journey (and an on-the-day advance might well cover the last few miles). I wouldn't personally have considered a Northern Advance bought in advance as suitable after a flight. You have to question why there's no consistency amongst the operators from the airport - normal advances aren't really fit for purpose in this context. Even the TPE scheme should be updated to let you catch an earlier train if you're lucky to get through the airport quickly and there are no capacity problems.

 

[sleepycats]

Well this particular exception has relevance if the OP wasn't put off from using the railway for life and needed to make the journey again as such a ticket could cover most of their journey (and an on-the-day advance might well cover the last few miles). I wouldn't personally have considered a Northern Advance bought in advance as suitable after a flight. You have to question why there's no consistency amongst the operators from the airport - normal advances aren't really fit for purpose in this context. Even the TPE scheme should be updated to let you catch an earlier train if you're lucky to get through the airport quickly and there are no capacity problems.

Thank you, it's good to know for the future - unfortunately I don't think I'll be able to avoid trains forever haha so I'll just be incredibly nervous and triple checking everything!

I wouldn't normally buy an advance return for this situation either - I genuinely thought id bought an open return like I usually do to allow me the flexibility following a flight. I think this is the first time the split save has ever been offered to me and I didn't appreciate that it would change my ticket in this way, and stupidly didn't think to check. Lesson learned!

 

[John R]

Thank you, it's good to know for the future - unfortunately I don't think I'll be able to avoid trains forever haha so I'll just be incredibly nervous and triple checking everything!

I wouldn't normally buy an advance return for this situation either - I genuinely thought id bought an open return like I usually do to allow me the flexibility following a flight. I think this is the first time the split save has ever been offered to me and I didn't appreciate that it would change my ticket in this way, and stupidly didn't think to check. Lesson learned!

We see quite a few cases here where people have bought a ticket online and unwittingly purchased an advance, even for relatively short journeys, as it seems to be the first option shown as it's the lowest price. I think the rail industry needs to take a good long hard look at how it offers tickets online - I doubt it will though, and people will continue to be caught out, and some may decide that's the last time they use rail after reaping the consequences.

 

[Haywain]

We see quite a few cases here where people have bought a ticket online and unwittingly purchased an advance, even for relatively short journeys, as it seems to be the first option shown as it's the lowest price. I think the rail industry needs to take a good long hard look at how it offers tickets online - I doubt it will though, and people will continue to be caught out, and some may decide that's the last time they use rail after reaping the consequences.

It seems to be a particular problem of Trainline's splitsave not being clear about how different ticket types are mixed (see also: day/period return).

 

[Titfield]

We see quite a few cases here where people have bought a ticket online and unwittingly purchased an advance, even for relatively short journeys, as it seems to be the first option shown as it's the lowest price. I think the rail industry needs to take a good long hard look at how it offers tickets online - I doubt it will though, and people will continue to be caught out, and some may decide that's the last time they use rail after reaping the consequences.

Showing the lowest price first is the default way of displaying "fares" for "public transport". How else could you do it - you certainly couldnt have highest price first as that would go against the principal of encouraging the use of public transport / generating patronage.

To have a system that somehow differentiated between flexible and non flexible tickets in a clear way would be very helpful indeed but with the plethora of fare types (and differences in what is flexible / non flexible) quite a challenge.

I am sure that TOCs do not want genuine misunderstandings any more than the readers of the forum do, the problem is just how to achieve it. (If you look back at the thread about contactless cards and Stansted Airport you may wonder just how difficult it is to make something crystal clear to all).

 

[WAB]

Showing the lowest price first is the default way of displaying "fares" for "public transport". How else could you do it - you certainly couldnt have highest price first as that would go against the principal of encouraging the use of public transport / generating patronage.

To have a system that somehow differentiated between flexible and non flexible tickets in a clear way would be very helpful indeed but with the plethora of fare types (and differences in what is flexible / non flexible) quite a challenge.

I am sure that TOCs do not want genuine misunderstandings any more than the readers of the forum do, the problem is just how to achieve it. (If you look back at the thread about contactless cards and Stansted Airport you may wonder just how difficult it is to make something crystal clear to all).

LNER's approach seems to work quite well.

 

[fandroid]

Trainsplit and the Forum's ticket site give a range of criteria, such as speed and value

 

[Kite159]

Trainsplit and the Forum's ticket site give a range of criteria, such as speed and value

And more importantly the option between Flexible & Fixed so advance purchase tickets can be avoided. The issue is the infrequent traveller might easily get caught out by selecting one of Northern's short distance advance fares (because they wouldn't expect such a fare to exist between X & Y when there are multiple northern trains an hour)

 

[Titfield]

LNER's approach seems to work quite well.


View attachment 143249

Yes agreed but this is not the www.nationalrail.co.uk website which is the neutral all TOCS website.

Perhaps there is an argument that it should be mandated that all fare displays are to a common format.

 

[Haywain]

Perhaps there is an argument that it should be mandated that all fare displays are to a common format.

That would not be a good thing. Different people cope with different layouts, and long may that continue.

 

[janb]

I wouldn't personally have considered a Northern Advance bought in advance as suitable after a flight. You have to question why there's no consistency amongst the operators from the airport - normal advances aren't really fit for purpose in this context. Even the TPE scheme should be updated to let you catch an earlier train if you're lucky to get through the airport quickly and there are no capacity problems.

OT for the OP so I won't belabour the point but Northern Advance from Manchester Airport do operate to the same principle as TPE for those on a late flight. The only people that know about it are probably me (as I can remember the 2016 internal brief, never rescinded but also never reinforced or written down anywhere internally or externally) and more importantly the staff at Manchester Airport ticket office (who confirmed to me last time this came up on the forum it still applies).

Also to echo @Haywain the specific issue with Trainline Splitsave is that a) a lot of people are oblivious that they are splitting at all, and b) oblivious that it is mixing and matching ticket types and likely including Advances.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder that replies to dispute threads should follow the following guidelines please:

Please read before posting in Disputes & Prosecutions

Guidance for those asking for advice: Please bear in mind the following, when asking for advice in this section: We need to know all relevant facts in order to assist you, including, for example: The stations* where you actually started & finished your journey The stations* where you changed...

www.railforums.co.uk

Furthermore, any posts of a speculative nature on almost any topic would generally belong in the Speculative Discussion section; non-speculative threads should never be replied to with posts that contain anything of a speculative nature (other than a link / reference to a speculative thread) please. Any posts regarding historical or current fares policy could go in the History & Nostalgia or Fares Advice & Policy sections, as appropriate (if in doubt feel free to ask us).

Anyone is welcome to create a spin off thread at any time, for example I created one today regarding Delay Repay, where I quoted the dispute thread which prompted me to create the thread (along with others) and also posted a link to the new thread from the original.

Many thanks for your understanding, but if any of this seems unclear or has any questions please use the 'contact us' form at the bottom of any page.

 

[Hadders]

I've moved posts about renaming tickets types to a new thread in Fares Advice & Policy:

Discussion about Renaming Tickets

Moderator Note - Split From: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/wrong-ticket.254881/ Also to echo @Haywain the specific issue with Trainline Splitsave is that a) a lot of people are oblivious that they are splitting at all, and b) oblivious that it is mixing and matching ticket types and...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[superkopite]

Northern are under no obligation to let you leave the train when challenged although they shouldn’t have said you were literally “not allowed” to get off. You are - it just probably wouldn’t have been the right thing to do in the circumstances.

What do you mean by this? Were Northern permitted to detain the op forcibly? This seem contradictory as you go on to say that the OP was allowed to leave

 

[AlterEgo]

What do you mean by this? Were Northern permitted to detain the op forcibly? This seem contradictory as you go on to say that the OP was allowed to leave

I meant “no obligation to just let you leave and dispose of the matter that way”. But in any case, yes, RPIs are legally entitled to use force if they reasonably suspect an offence, even if they rarely do so because it’s not a bright idea.

 

[superkopite]

I meant “no obligation to just let you leave and dispose of the matter that way”. But in any case, yes, RPIs are legally entitled to use force if they reasonably suspect an offence, even if they rarely do so because it’s not a bright idea.

Thank you. I didn't know that

Could they not have just gotten off of the train with the OP? What is the expected behaviour if staying on the train means missing your planned stop?