Withdrawal Of Paper 7 Day Tickets

[Joshua_Harman]

Bluestar And Uni-link ( Part Of Go-South Coast) Recently announced that they are withdrawing paper 7 day tickets for adults due to high levels of fraud and wastage of paper and single use wallets a move that they claim both helps the environment and combat fare evasion.

It seems from reading their website that only the standard ‘adult rate’ tickets will be discontinued and does not explicitly state but implies that child tickets (and perhaps Solent go products?) will still be available to purchase as normal.

The move is forcing people to move to alternative methods of fare payment such as TOTO (Tap On Tap Off) and their own bus ticketing app.

Their ‘Key card’ ITSO Based smartcard system was also discontinued some months ago now which did allow payment and top up online* as well as on the bus where the ticket was loaded onto your card.
* Although it did take 3 hours from purchase to be able to activate on the bus

TFL who are planning to withdraw paper tickets (but have not done yet) and do not take cash payments on board buses have made many easy alternatives for people to load up cards and purchase tickets, from all tube and national rail stations as well as thousands of convenience ’7-11’ type stores as well as online make it quite easy to purchase tickets for travel elsewhere than on board their buses.

BlueStar And Uni-link have only one shop in the centre of Southampton that used to be able to sell paper tickets and top up cards however their hours are restricted to office hours and their location is not too useful for people I’m the suburbs or nearby towns to access information and tickets before they travel.

And so my question is, what are people’s thoughts on this? Do you fellow forum members think this is a good idea? Forcing people to use an app or PAYG Based ticketing system, rather than a traditional paper ticket?

As a bus driver myself passengers using an app over paper tickets is easier for us as a driver however as a consumer I absolutely hate apps and disagree with companies that force users to use an app, such as offering discounts to those who use it, it seems unfair to be forced to use an app if you don’t want to. The company I work for offers is the ability to have our staff travel passes within our own ticketing app, or the ability to hold a proper paper style pass, an option which I use and was told that very very few people do, apart from generally the older generation of drivers.

Now I’m 24 not too old but still don’t like being forced to use an app for travel and don’t really trust using my bank card as a ticket to tap straight in, as you never know what they’re going to take out until they do.

Do you guys think that this is a good move from Go-Ahead? Perhaps more companies should follow suit?

I look forward to hearing people’s thoughts below.

https://www.bluestarbus.co.uk/thekey

https://www.bluestarbus.co.uk/withdrawal-7-day-adult-paper-tickets

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm fine with it but an Oyster style option should be provided, i.e. a card that is for travel only and is topped up using cash.

Though buses outside London are mostly used by younger and older people. Older people have a free pass, while younger people are almost invariably phone and Internet savvy. So it might prove a shrewd business decision. What they haven't mentioned, but is true, is that issuing paper seasons slows buses down - Manchester was always slower on a Monday morning when everyone was buying weeklies.

Do you ever use Uber or Bolt? You're forced to use an app for those...

 

[Joshua_Harman]

I'm fine with it but an Oyster style option should be provided, i.e. a card that is for travel only and is topped up using cash.

Though buses outside London are mostly used by younger and older people. Older people have a free pass, while younger people are almost invariably phone and Internet savvy. So it might prove a shrewd business decision. What they haven't mentioned, but is true, is that issuing paper seasons slows buses down - Manchester was always slower on a Monday morning when everyone was buying weeklies.

Do you ever use Uber or Bolt? You're forced to use an app for those...

I Agree that It does slow buses down, although sometimes if someone’s card declines or app doesn’t load because of internet connectivity or some other issues it can be slower than someone who has cash or showing me a pass that they’ve purchased or scanning a smartcard. Perhaps they should have kept the key card scheme going if they were planning to do this.

I generally avoid using taxi’s and tend to call one on the phone if I do with a local firm, but I see where you’re coming from with companies that are app based only, however they’ve always been app based only whereas people have got used to paying cash and using paper tickets etc

 

[N1]

Used to be a student in Southampton not too long ago.

I think it is fairly clear these changes have been done to prevent ticket sharing, and nothing to do with obsolete tech. Both smartcards and paper tickets can easily be shared between people. Particularly, as all Soton Uni students in Uni halls got a free bus pass that covered the academic year, which was issued on the key, these were often shared with others, or even sold online by students who didn't us them, may have been a factor in the Key being withdrawn in Southampton, but seemingly going strong in other Go-Ahead areas.

I don't know if students still receive a bus pass, or how that is issued.

People are much less likely to share a phone or card for saving a bit on bus tickets. How much revenue they were missing out on based on ticket sharing I don't know.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know if students still receive a bus pass, or how that is issued.

In most cities students are offered a heavily discounted term time pass and most take these. They're usually sold either online or by the student unions. Probably also on app these days!

 

[Joshua_Harman]

Used to be a student in Southampton not too long ago.

I think it is fairly clear these changes have been done to prevent ticket sharing, and nothing to do with obsolete tech. Both smartcards and paper tickets can easily be shared between people. Particularly, as all Soton Uni students in Uni halls got a free bus pass that covered the academic year, which was issued on the key, these were often shared with others, or even sold online by students who didn't us them, may have been a factor in the Key being withdrawn in Southampton, but seemingly going strong in other Go-Ahead areas.

I don't know if students still receive a bus pass, or how that is issued.

People are much less likely to share a phone or card for saving a bit on bus tickets. How much revenue they were missing out on based on ticket sharing I don't know.

I believe they do, but it’s all through the app now, you download it and put in a discount code I would presume. I agree that’s it’s not about obsolete tech it’s mainly fare evasion, and shared ticketing is easier to detect via app, if the same account is on many devices, perhaps the easier route would have been to have a photo on the card like some rail smart cards do, or some sort of photo card, I know first bus used to do then from monthly tickets in the same way the railway does. Seeing as they are now the only operating company In Southampton they can pretty much do what they like.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe they do, but it’s all through the app now, you download it and put in a discount code I would presume. I agree that’s it’s not about obsolete tech it’s mainly fare evasion, and shared ticketing is easier to detect via app, if the same account is on many devices, perhaps the easier route would have been to have a photo on the card like some rail smart cards do, or some sort of photo card, I know first bus used to do then from monthly tickets in the same way the railway does. Seeing as they are now the only operating company In Southampton they can pretty much do what they like.

I suspect the number of current students who don't have a smartphone is, unless they have had it nicked and haven't replaced it yet, 0 or very close to it.

 

[Joshua_Harman]

I suspect the number of current students who don't have a smartphone is, unless they have had it nicked and haven't replaced it yet, 0 or very close to it.

I would agree, perhaps because I am an enthusiast or perhaps because I have seen too many times people being rejected from buses due to app issues I always prefer paper, however in this day and age most people use app, it’s a shame that they are only catering to the majority market without thinking of the few that may be left behind

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would agree, perhaps because I am an enthusiast or perhaps because I have seen too many times people being rejected from buses due to app issues I always prefer paper, however in this day and age most people use app, it’s a shame that they are only catering to the majority market without thinking of the few that may be left behind

That's the nature of a private business, which is why we have discrimination law. Private business MUST act to make money for its shareholders, it is legally duty bound to do that, unless its shareholders have agreed for it to do otherwise but in this sort of case there's no chance of that.

 

[richw]

Stagecoach south west haven’t offered paper weekly tickets for some time (except child).
Smart card or on the app is the only options for anything more than a day ticket for adults.

Doesn’t appear to create any issues here.

 

[Joshua_Harman]

Stagecoach south west haven’t offered paper weekly tickets for some time (except child).
Smart card or on the app is the only options for anything more than a day ticket for adults.

Doesn’t appear to create any issues here.

I think Stagecoach nationwide does that but you can still purchase tickets with cash on the bus and aren’t forced to use an app based system or tap your personal credit debit card onto a reader that will take whatever it likes at a later time. At least if you buy a paper card ticket on the bus it comes up with first the price that you’ll be paying so you know what is it is. Every time I have used TOTO capping with both TfL (who are the worst offender) and go ahead (BlueStar and some other companies too) it has always overcharged me and I have to phone and claim back. At least with the cards they don’t have half as many problems as app tickets do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Every time I have used TOTO capping with both TfL (who are the worst offender) and go ahead (BlueStar and some other companies too) it has always overcharged me and I have to phone and claim back.

Funny, I have never been overcharged by TfL. On one occasion I was evacuated from a station without tapping out and even that journey was resolved correctly without me having to do anything at all.

I note similarly that the Tripadvisor reviews for Santander Cycles seem to be full of people moaning about being charged for not docking their cycle correctly. I've similarly never had this - I dock it with a decent amount of force, pull it back with a decent amount of force to check it's docked, and watch for the green light and the automatic notification on my phone that the journey has ended.

What are you doing that is resulting in repeated incorrect charges?

But if you're really worried, get a credit card and use that - you can challenge any incorrect charges without ever having to pay them off, they are frozen as soon as you dispute them. It'll have the added benefit of building your credit rating.

 

[SeveerYeliab]

I believe they do, but it’s all through the app now, you download it and put in a discount code I would presume. I agree that’s it’s not about obsolete tech it’s mainly fare evasion, and shared ticketing is easier to detect via app, if the same account is on many devices, perhaps the easier route would have been to have a photo on the card like some rail smart cards do, or some sort of photo card, I know first bus used to do then from monthly tickets in the same way the railway does. Seeing as they are now the only operating company In Southampton they can pretty much do what they like.

Yes all through the app now, with a discount code for the free year pass for all in halls. However to activate the ticket it needs to be ‘verified’ with a selfie to try to stop ticket sharing. I believe they *could* ask to see a student ID card as you board to check the selfie matches although this never happened to me.

 

[Joshua_Harman]

Yes all through the app now, with a discount code for the free year pass for all in halls. However to activate the ticket it needs to be ‘verified’ with a selfie to try to stop ticket sharing. I believe they *could* ask to see a student ID card as you board to check the selfie matches although this never happened to me.

That’s how it works on my bus, the student smart cards are a blue in colour and the student apps are a different colour and we check the student ID Of the user. BlueStar don’t have any ticket checkers if I recall ( or at least never got checked the whole 6 years I lived in Southampton and travelled frequently by bus!) which would help if they are having a revenue issue.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Sep 2023 ==

Funny, I have never been overcharged by TfL. On one occasion I was evacuated from a station without tapping out and even that journey was resolved correctly without me having to do anything at all.

I note similarly that the Tripadvisor reviews for Santander Cycles seem to be full of people moaning about being charged for not docking their cycle correctly. I've similarly never had this - I dock it with a decent amount of force, pull it back with a decent amount of force to check it's docked, and watch for the green light and the automatic notification on my phone that the journey has ended.

What are you doing that is resulting in repeated incorrect charges?

But if you're really worried, get a credit card and use that - you can challenge any incorrect charges without ever having to pay them off, they are frozen as soon as you dispute them. It'll have the added benefit of building your credit rating.

I’ve spoken to many people in both parties, but I don’t trust giving my bank card over, as for credit card, that’s a definite No no but that’s a different issue entirely!

 

[richw]

think Stagecoach nationwide does that but you can still purchase tickets with cash on the bus and aren’t forced to use an app based system or tap your personal credit debit card onto a reader that will take whatever it likes at a later time. At least if you buy a paper card ticket on the bus it comes up with first the price that you’ll be paying so you know what is it is.

Yes you can apply a product to your smart card on the bus and pay the driver in cash.

 

[Citistar]

As well as the issue of ticket sharing fraud, i wonder how much of this is down to the prolific levels of Ticketer card payment processing fraud. Because the payments are not taken at the time of issue but processed overnight, a growing number of bus users appear to have found that it is possible to buy high value tickets on a card that cannot fund the transaction. I believe this was also a problem at Ensign some months ago. Although cards can be hotlisted and blocked from purchasing tickets, it seems they have to fail several times before this happens. Given the way the Ticketer system is built (and the third party delayed batch payment processing through LittlePay), it is difficult to see a fix coming quickly from their side.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because the payments are not taken at the time of issue but processed overnight

This doesn't seem to be quite the case. Usually when I pay a fare by card on a Ticketer machine, £0.10 (always that) is authorised within a minute or two of me paying.

It wouldn't seem too hard to make it authorise the actual sum of the transaction at that point, and then to invalidate the barcode of the ticket purchased, so at least it could only be fraudulently used for one trip.

Actually claiming the money is a batch process but that's true of all card transactions without exception.

 

[Citistar]

This doesn't seem to be quite the case. Usually when I pay a fare by card on a Ticketer machine, £0.10 (always that) is authorised within a minute or two of me paying.

It wouldn't seem too hard to make it authorise the actual sum of the transaction at that point, and then to invalidate the barcode of the ticket purchased, so at least it could only be fraudulently used for one trip.

Actually claiming the money is a batch process but that's true of all card transactions without exception.

I hadn't realised there was an immediate authoritisation - in that case, i concur that it seems bizarre that the full amount is not immediately authorised as it would be on most other portable payment devices (SumUp, Square etc). On our SumUp machine, i've had payments declined at the point of sale, but never had one fail to pay out.

 

[Tatty2008]

Seems to be a Go Ahead South thing, as according to their facebook pages, Morebus and Southern Vectis are phasing out paper weekly tickets (adults only)

 

[johncrossley]

The main news here is that most passengers can no longer buy a weekly ticket on the bus. This has been a bugbear of mine when travelling in other cities than London. It is such a waste of time for the driver to sell weekly tickets on the bus, especially when they have to put it in a wallet. It should be compulsory to use tap in tap out for single and day tickets when using a bank card instead of buying a single or day ticket from the driver. Paper tickets are the only option when cash is used, but there should be huge discounts for card/app usage to discourage cash usage.

don’t really trust using my bank card as a ticket to tap straight in, as you never know what they’re going to take out until they do.

Depending on your bank account and phone app you should be able to see transactions as they happen on your phone. Google Pay and Apple Pay are more fiddly on public transport, but depending on the operator it can give you detailed information on when and where you touched in and out.

 

[Mwanesh]

Weekly tickets should be bought on the app. I don't see why you have to pay on the bus. In the mornings it speeds up boarding and travel times.

 

[GusB]

I don't really see a problem with buying a weekly ticket on the bus if you're paying by card; it takes the same amount of time as it does to buy any other ticket. The biggest problem with weeklies that I've seen over the years was when everyone turned up with £10 and £20 notes and invariably the driver would end up running out of change; contactless eliminates that.

 

[JD2168]

As well as the issue of ticket sharing fraud, i wonder how much of this is down to the prolific levels of Ticketer card payment processing fraud. Because the payments are not taken at the time of issue but processed overnight, a growing number of bus users appear to have found that it is possible to buy high value tickets on a card that cannot fund the transaction. I believe this was also a problem at Ensign some months ago. Although cards can be hotlisted and blocked from purchasing tickets, it seems they have to fail several times before this happens. Given the way the Ticketer system is built (and the third party delayed batch payment processing through LittlePay), it is difficult to see a fix coming quickly from their side.

This I think is why the purchase of a Weekly ticket of a Travelmaster in South Yorkshire is now cash only on buses.

 

[johncrossley]

I don't really see a problem with buying a weekly ticket on the bus if you're paying by card; it takes the same amount of time as it does to buy any other ticket. The biggest problem with weeklies that I've seen over the years was when everyone turned up with £10 and £20 notes and invariably the driver would end up running out of change; contactless eliminates that.

It is better than paying in cash but it still involves an unnecessary driver transaction. Boarding numerous passengers paying the same national £2 fare cap to the driver, even paying by card, should be quick but it still takes a long time when the driver has to process the transaction and give the passenger a paper ticket. If you are used to how quick London buses board it seems painfully slow.

 

[markymark2000]

This doesn't seem to be quite the case. Usually when I pay a fare by card on a Ticketer machine, £0.10 (always that) is authorised within a minute or two of me paying.

Which operators do you use? I've never found this. Not sure if it's operator specific or depends on the bank on whether it shows up but I think that I have only ever seen 10p payment pending once and I always pay by card on the bus.

I don't really see a problem with buying a weekly ticket on the bus if you're paying by card; it takes the same amount of time as it does to buy any other ticket.

I agree. Everyone should have the option to pay for weeklies on the bus. Monthly and longer should be the cut off for purchase on the bus. We do need card payments to start taking payments immediately though rather than all being delayed and therefore subject to fraud.


I really don't understand a few members of this forum are so dead set against paper tickets. While yes we can encourage people to use just pure contactless, not everyone is happy with the tap on, tap off scheme and even so, sometimes tap on, tap off is slower, especially over the day because it requires passengers to stop, find their card, tap off and then continue. A few seconds every boarding and alighting versus a longer dwell one off while the ticket is printed then a very quick scan of the QR code upon each time boarding thereafter. Paper tickets can be quicker. It's because of trust why Day travelcards are still going. My trips to London I chose to get a travelcard instead of doing pay as you go because I have had too many bad experiences with Oyster massively overcharging me for some reason. I find a physical ticket/travelcard much easier, as do many other passengers. Passengers should be given choice, not forced to use a certain payment method. If Londons buses accepted cash right now, people would pay it. They only don't pay cash because they are FORCED to pay card. That isn't a good thing. We live in a free world. Peoples ability to use public transport should not depend on them having a contactless bank card! Now, more than ever, people are using cash to help them budget, why should they be penalised and refused access just because they have coins not a bit of plastic.

 

[johncrossley]

I really don't understand a few members of this forum are so dead set against paper tickets

Because of the delay driver ticket sales cause to the service. Hence why almost everywhere in the world tried to keep these transactions to a minimum.

sometimes tap on, tap off is slower

I find this hard to believe although the Ticketer machines commonly used in the UK are considerably slower than Oyster readers and most smartcard readers used in other countries. If bus companies used better smartcard readers then this could never be the case.

I have had too many bad experiences with Oyster massively overcharging me for some reason.

I've been using contactless in London frequently for a getting on for a decade and Oyster for a decade before that and have never had any issues with overcharging, and in any case any issues can be easily fixed online.

 

[richw]

As well as the issue of ticket sharing fraud, i wonder how much of this is down to the prolific levels of Ticketer card payment processing fraud. Because the payments are not taken at the time of issue but processed overnight, a growing number of bus users appear to have found that it is possible to buy high value tickets on a card that cannot fund the transaction. I believe this was also a problem at Ensign some months ago. Although cards can be hotlisted and blocked from purchasing tickets, it seems they have to fail several times before this happens. Given the way the Ticketer system is built (and the third party delayed batch payment processing through LittlePay), it is difficult to see a fix coming quickly from their side.

VIX machines are offline and take the transaction when the bus returns to the WiFi network at the depot.
Non authorised transaction hotlists the card for 42 days on the first instance If I recall correctly.

 

[N1]

I do think stopping weekly tickets onboard is the right move, as well as moving to Tap-on Tap off for adults, to speed up boarding times. Some people will lose out but I feel the overall benefit is positive. Child tickets should still be able to be purchased on the bus. Its clear that this is a barrier for some visitors with children in London getting the bus

Although in the case of Bluestar, it does seem mostly driven by a desire to maximise revenue.

Bluestar are moving in the direction of improving boarding times though. Unilink buses have always had double doors by necessity really, but the Enviro 400 and Enviro 400 Cities cascaded from Unilink have retained the double doors, and the buses brought in to cover Firsts withdrawal look likely to have the double doors retained.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which operators do you use? I've never found this. Not sure if it's operator specific or depends on the bank on whether it shows up but I think that I have only ever seen 10p payment pending once and I always pay by card on the bus.

I've noticed it on Arriva Milton Keynes (so presumably the same for all Arriva) and on Go Cornwall Bus quite recently, both Ticketer users. Stagecoach do the full amount on a similar timescale but they don't use Ticketer.

I bank with Monzo so am notified for any authorisation or transaction, and it always happens. It may well be that some banks hide a "dummy" authorisation of that nature if you don't use Monzo - Monzo even notifies you if someone does a zero authorisation (which it calls an "active card check"), I've not come across any other bank that does that as of yet.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Sep 2023 ==

If Londons buses accepted cash right now, people would pay it. They only don't pay cash because they are FORCED to pay card. That isn't a good thing.

You can pay cash for London bus travel. You obtain an Oyster card and load it with your chosen cash sum.

The speed-up that London buses have experienced from the move to Oyster/contactless is massive. A two door double decker operates as quickly now with just the driver as a Routemaster did with a conductor. That speed-up has huge value.

 

[johncrossley]

You can pay cash for London bus travel. You obtain an Oyster card and load it with your chosen cash sum.

Similarly you can use cash anywhere where contactless is accepted (for example to use tap in tap out on Bluestar) by getting a prepaid contactless card and loading it with cash