New XC contract - news & updates (not speculation)

[D6130]

It’s not a franchise competition just an extension. Those take years and are very expensive.

But is it only an extension because nobody else showed any interest in taking over the franchise?

 

[dk1]

But is it only an extension because nobody else showed any interest in taking over the franchise?

No it wasn’t. It was never opened up as a franchise bid. Far easier for the DfT to negotiate with the incumbent operator for an extension to the existing contract.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Sep 2023 ==

As I said, these things are expensive and take years.

 

[Goldfish62]

I imagine the rather lacklustre uptake of ex AWC 221 will partially be driven by the additional costs incurred by ensuring that each unit on a double set has a Train Manager present. I can understand the economical sense of crush loading a single set as opposed to the not insignificant cost of recruiting and training additional Train Managers - unless an agreement could be negotiated per LNER for retail managers to be upskilled in pseudo guarding of a unit.

That's an excellent point.

If of course the railways were going for growth and the Treasury was prepared to take some commercial risk things might look different. But that's in the realms of fantasy.

 

[skyhigh]

I imagine the rather lacklustre uptake of ex AWC 221 will partially be driven by the additional costs incurred by ensuring that each unit on a double set has a Train Manager present.

Is there really an agreement for that? Seems surprising to me.

 

[Clarence Yard]

But is it only an extension because nobody else showed any interest in taking over the franchise?

Nobody else was allowed to take an interest - it was a direct award procurement exercise. Competitive bidding for DfT rail operations finished years ago.

And it isn’t a franchise - it’s just a management contract, running the TOC on behalf of the DfT. The DfT make all the crucial decisions on XC (and a load of non crucial ones as well!).

At the moment the DfT are doing the minimum they can get away with, to stay within the limits the Treasury have set them.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

But is it only an extension because nobody else showed any interest in taking over the franchise?

It's a Direct Award.
Under EU procurement rules direct awards could only be for 2 years max, before rebidding the contract (hence the repeated direct awards to GWR/Virgin etc, pre-Covid).
That seems out of the window now.
But notionally all rail contracts should be up for re-bid, including the OLR ones (LNER, Northern, TPE etc).
Even TfW and Scotrail are operating under OLR provisions until the legislation changes.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

The MR article says that XC are to study future opportunities for its Turbostar routes. This would be a stretch without additional units

You don't need additional units to do a study.

The study may very possibly just say something like "We believe there is untapped demand between Leicester and Peterborough [or wherever] and, in a future franchise award, frequency could be increased to half-hourly if funding was available".

 

[anthony263]

Plus, it's probably faster going via the WCML changing at Crewe (TfW via Marches) or B'ham (XC) for the Avanti service anyway.

Oh look, someone beat me to it

Wouldn't there be just 3 left cos Grand Central are planning to take 10 (2 down, 8 to go) of them?

Grand union might be considering them

 

[waterboo]

Is there really an agreement for that? Seems surprising to me.

There is indeed. Suppose 2 units are coupled and only one portion has a Train manager, the other portion is locked out of use.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is indeed. Suppose 2 units are coupled and only one portion has a Train manager, the other portion is locked out of use.

Meanwhile I got off a Chiltern not so long ago this evening. One member of staff - the driver. Rear unit totally unstaffed and ungangwayed. Nobody died, or even probably noticed.

 

[duffield]

I'm pleasantly surprised XC is getting anything at all to replace the HSTs. I'd fully expected the DfT to see their removal as an opportunity to cut costs, since they've never seemed to give a toss about the ridiculous overcrowding on parts of the XC core so I didn't think they'd care if it got even worse.

But it's going to be grim on whichever services do get shortened in the meantime. I see today one of the main traditional HST services, 1V44 Leeds-Plymouth is a 2x4 coach 221/220 so it's not shortened; I wonder which services are? Or are they just going to try and work the current fleet harder and keep more in service until the extra ones arrive?

 

[43055]

I'm pleasantly surprised XC is getting anything at all to replace the HSTs. I'd fully expected the DfT to see their removal as an opportunity to cut costs, since they've never seemed to give a toss about the ridiculous overcrowding on parts of the XC core so I didn't think they'd care if it got even worse.

But it's going to be grim on whichever services do get shortened in the meantime. I see today one of the main traditional HST services, 1V44 Leeds-Plymouth is a 2x4 coach 221/220 so it's not shortened; I wonder which services are? Or are they just going to try and work the current fleet harder and keep more in service until the extra ones arrive?

I think it has been mentioned in another thread that since May timetable change 4 Voyagers have been diagramed ready for the HST's going ie 2x double sets. There could be some effect this week with the engineering works south of Bristol altering the diagrams.

 

[duffield]

I agree its a bloody pain when I'm on them from Cardiff to Birmingham New Street and from New Street to South Wigston

From what I've seen the train staff on the 170's don't object to standard class passengers charging their phones in first as long they don't sit in there, and just hang about outside to keep an eye out. Not at all ideal, true, but could be useful if you're desperate.

 

[Class 170101]

I'm confused is there actually anything in it in terms of more services or just more of carry on as you are?

 

[dk1]

I'm confused is there actually anything in it in terms of more services or just more of carry on as you are?

The latter.

 

[Class 170101]

The latter.

How depressing

Unless the fleet is expanded , it’s more of the same , which is in many cases , not good enough..
More overcrowding in the leisure sector , is not the way to grow the rail industry.

And so I have to agree with these comments - clearly a no growth strategy.

 

[Trainbuff]

There is indeed. Suppose 2 units are coupled and only one portion has a Train manager, the other portion is locked out of use.

This is not strictly true. If only 1 Train Manager then you are correct, but if a caterer is also provided they are in the front portion and the double set can run

 

[ValentaFan1974]

Does what? Book two people in one seat?

I would be very surprised if that was true or a policy.

This is not strictly true. If only 1 Train Manager then you are correct, but if a caterer is also provided they are in the front portion and the double set can run

A bone of contention for many caterers…. We don’t get any extra remuneration for being the “responsible person” in that empty set (I’m sure other TOC’s pay an extra allowance for things like that?)… I personally don’t mind it and am more than happy to deal with any eventuality but there are some that don’t feel comfortable or confident and I hope that’s addressed.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There is indeed. Suppose 2 units are coupled and only one portion has a Train manager, the other portion is locked out of use.

Is that how Avanti use their Voyagers too?
I've never seen a 10-car Avanti service with only one unit open.

 

[Snow1964]

This is not strictly true. If only 1 Train Manager then you are correct, but if a caterer is also provided they are in the front portion and the double set can run

Do they swap every few stops, or is there deliberate policy of train manager will only ever be visible to half the passengers, and half won't have the trolley.

My last experience of XC was neither appeared, (was Bristol to Yorkshire so not short journey), actually trolley was announced as static so had to go to it, which makes you wonder why don't just back to buffet cars.

XC just seem to have bonkers policies for passenger reassurance and maximising catering revenue

 

[Masbroughlad]

Does this all mean no Great British Railways? Franchises/contracts carrying on.

 

[skyhigh]

Does this all mean no Great British Railways? Franchises/contracts carrying on.

No, all this is compatible with any rollout of GBR. It's a management contract, not a franchise.

 

[Goldfish62]

Do they swap every few stops, or is there deliberate policy of train manager will only ever be visible to half the passengers, and half won't have the trolley.

My last experience of XC was neither appeared, (was Bristol to Yorkshire so not short journey), actually trolley was announced as static so had to go to it, which makes you wonder why don't just back to buffet cars.

XC just seem to have bonkers policies for passenger reassurance and maximising catering revenue

What I'm told by someone who works the trolleys is that since the reduction in capacity on the Reading - Birmingham corridor since May overcrowding is so endemic that it's simply not possible to get through the train so much of the time.

 

[BanburyBlue]

Do they swap every few stops, or is there deliberate policy of train manager will only ever be visible to half the passengers, and half won't have the trolley.

My last experience of XC was neither appeared, (was Bristol to Yorkshire so not short journey), actually trolley was announced as static so had to go to it, which makes you wonder why don't just back to buffet cars.

XC just seem to have bonkers policies for passenger reassurance and maximising catering revenue

I can't understand it. It almost seems normal that a double Voyager rocks up at Banbury with one set locked out. Sometimes it is shown on the station display boards and sometimes not - really annoying.

 

[Driver068]

You can be sure that if that was the intention then it would have been in the press release. Ministers wouldn't miss an opportunity like that to trumpet a potential improvement even if it's a year or so away (indeed, I doubt the 7 sets will be released until the 805/807s are ready anyway).

Am I right the believe Avanti currently still have 18 221s with 2 out of the 20 already being returned as GC currently have those 2 sets. I'm wondering have any more sets been returned or are they still using them.
With XC getting additional sets I assume this not going to happen until the 80x come on line??

GC have said nothing at all on the subject of taking any further 221s so any guess they're taking 8 more is complete speculation.

Also there are rumours GC maybe getting an additional 5 221s on top of the 2 sets they already have. I'm not sure if the numbers add up as I suppose speculation.
Anyone else aware of the above?

 

[sprinterguy]

Am I right the believe Avanti currently still have 18 221s with 2 out of the 20 already being returned as GC currently have those 2 sets. I'm wondering have any more sets been returned or are they still using them.
With XC getting additional sets I assume this not going to happen until the 80x come on line??

Correct, Avanti require their 18 remaining 221s until after the 80x units start to enter service.

 

[Masbroughlad]

Why no bidding? Was the bidding competition not the point of privatisation?

Can't really see how GBR will be any better?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can't really see how GBR will be any better?

GBR won't be better until a new Government stops trying to cut costs to the bone. That's the problem and will be regardless of who runs it.

 

[JonathanH]

Why no bidding? Was the bidding competition not the point of privatisation?

There is nothing to bid for. The service is specified centrally and run by the existing operator.

Can't really see how GBR will be any better?

A railway planned and specified by a national body is what most people think of when they say that they want nationalisation.

GBR won't be better until a new Government stops trying to cut costs to the bone.

They are only cutting costs to the bone because revenue has reduced.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A railway planned and specified by a national body is what most people think of when they say that they want nationalisation.

Basically a QuANGO* is what most people see as desirable. (For some reason these got a bad name in the 1980s, but are basically what BR was - an independent entity that was given a budget and output indication by the Government and left to get on with it). Network Rail is one of these.

* Quasi-autonomous non-Governmental organisation.

They are only cutting costs to the bone because revenue has reduced.

Pretty much every other European country has realised that the solution to that is to grow the leisure market. The number of car journeys available to poach onto rail is in effect infinite.